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"Scout Rifle" ? To what end ? Pray explain the how and why of this concept ? | |||
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The 'whys' and 'wherefores' are fully explained in McCann's 'Scout Rifle' book: https://www.amazon.com/Scout-R...entury/dp/1983512540 More info can be gleaned from this Board, dedicated to all things 'Scout Rifle': http://www.scoutrifle.org/index.php All The Best ... | |||
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The introduction to the book says it all I guess "a misunderstood" rifle and the word "enigma" pops up ! To me a solution to a problem that does not exist...... and to boot if you are in need of a whole book to pontificate on the solution to the non existent problem then well I guess it says it all. Whilst I have no issue with training of marksmanship and practical marksmanship at that I do question the very essence of what this so called "scout rifle" is trying to achieve and more specifically whether the situation or actual situation for which this tool was designed actually exists. | |||
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Real simple. One person's (who happens to be considered an authority) set of parameters to define a general purpose lightweight rifle that (in their opinion) represents an optimal balance of performance characteristics given the wide variety of situations a rifle is used for. Question whether the situation exists? The antithesis is to say we all need at least a dozen rifles to fulfill various roles. If one questions the usefulness of the scout rifle concept, then by logical extension you question the usefulness of any general purpose tool or cartridge such as the 30-06 or 375HH. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Cooper was just Cooper. Being career military he HAD to have stringent rules. And he had to favor military carts. So, while I like the Ruger GunSight Scout rifle. I think the Styer is ridiculous. The push feed gun will break down first and be put out of action. Whereas the Ruger will just keep chuggin along , doing its job and Not need an armmorer to fix it constantly. Or only be used in the warm and dry. Being military he got the bulk of his training ammo from tax dollars. So that had to have an effect on his mental processes. Nowadays the 223 Rem with 50 or 55 gr mono metal expanding bullets will kill anything he was trying to With his 308. However the 6.5 Cm will shine the best in the GSS. And for a general purpose rifle . It would be very hard to beat for rough and tumble tramping around Alaska. Ruger just needs to bring it out in full stainless Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Being crazy about the SCOUT RIFLE (trumpets sound here) is OK. Everybody is crazy about something or the world does not go round. Not my cup of tea. Ruger does offer their pseudo-Scout Rifle in all stainless and Tupperware, in .308 WCF at least. I swapped my heavier laminate-stocked, matte black one for the stainless-synthetic .308 WCF. It is the closest I will ever get to a SCOUT RIFLE (trumpets blare). 16"-barreled 6.5 Creedmoor? IMHO, a 16"-barreled .308 WCF packs barely enough oomph to be interesting for the glorified role as a SCOUT RIFLE (trumpets blair) ready for anything, soup to nuts. The bigger bore hole in the barrel makes it easier to make weight, for the same barrel contour. Rip ... | |||
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CTF, I assume your aware the M16, M14, and AK47 are all push feeds. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I think Cooper pretty well nailed the walk about lightweight carbine for general use in North America. He intended it to be durable (with the dual iron and scope option) and the forward mounted scope works pretty well for shooting moving objects. I have a Steyr, and while I don't use it much for hunting (I am not really comfortable with the forward mounted scope on big game as I am not as accurate with it as with other more conventional rifles) it will certainly work for pretty much anything in North America, short of an elephant escaping the Zoo. As far as the "military cartridge" thing, that was eminently understandable in that military rounds are available in times of strife, which Cooper, as a self defense guru, really felt was the underlying last ditch purpose of any weapon. Agree or not, the reasoning is sound. Admittedly, the Steyr Scout is not for everyone, but then again, neither is the Ruger, or for that matter, the 6.5 Creed. Cooper originally came up with the criteria for what he termed a scout rifle. Given that there are as many takes on it as Carter has pills, I think the proof is there that it is a valid concept. The thing as I see it is, either it is true to his conception of what a scout should be, or it is another's interpretation of the desired goal, and thus not a "Scout Rifle." If that makes my opinion elitist, so be it. If you don't have a need or desire for such a thing, don't get one. Pretty simple. The commentary about what purpose it serves is kind of like the anti's telling me that I have no need for an AR 15 style rifle either; I get to decide what I want or need- and if someone else can put it in words better than I, so be it. | |||
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Hmmmm what exactly are you "scouting" ? The movement ? nah methinks the good Lord Baden Powell is spinning in his grave at this point as his beloved movement has been gutted and turned into a haven for pedophiles and those who are confused as to their gender? or perhaps the act of scouting? .... 2018 we are now use drones and the like where the operator is sitting in a cozy tin can complete with air conditioning on another continent with a JAG officer looking over his shoulder to make sure he is not peeping into some window where he not supposed to...... and if you should be so dumb as to get lost you simply walk to the nearest fence, hang a right till you get to a gate, go trough the gate and then you know where you are ? Now if it is a "general purpose gun" why not call it that ? never heard of Scouting glue or scouting tools, we say "GENERAL PURPOSE" or is it perhaps like Cabelas where there is standard grade shit and then " Outfitter grade" shit .... what exactly is "OUTFITTER GRADE" ? or my favourite "GUIDE" this or that.... saw it the other day. KUIU clothing..... they sell a GUIDE Jacket..... perhaps they should have called it a "Scout Jacket" ? So here is my rendition of the "SCOUT GUN" complete with a Leopold "SCOUT SCOPE" and for the love of my I have no idea why this would in any way be better than a ordinary go to general purpose rifle. This little gun is old almost twice my age and it shoots ... but not better than any of my other "non Scout " rifles Built this bad boy one time as a "general purpose gun" but based on "the book" this dont fit the bill to be called a Scout ? Perhaps I will call it a Guide gun...... nope Ruger got that one coined so perhaps I will just call it a "OUTFITTER GRADE " tool ? | |||
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double posted | |||
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My Steyr "Tactical" scout now has its scope over the action as that is quicker for me. Of the rifles I own, it is the only one that will never be for sale or trade. It's just an expensive boat and truck gun, but I like it, to paraphrase the Rolling Stones. | |||
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I would find Alf's second rifle, pictured above, much more Rip ... | |||
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They all look like carbines to me. I love Cooper, but the whole “Scout Rifle” thing seems strange to me. He set some perimeters down for a carbine. We have always had carbines. But I like long barrels. | |||
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Alf - your complaint is that he didn't call it general purpose, really? For a guy who is a history buff, a little bit of research would tell you the Scout rifle concept started in 1983. Drones (as we know of them today) did not have wide-spread use until almost a decade later. You might want to stop Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike Not to be taken to seriously ! You can call it what you want ! The point being it remains a bolt gun, many just like it from times way before, same purpose, same configuration. Other than the rather odd placement of a very long eye relief scope basically a tool, perhaps a rather overthought tool ? | |||
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I agree, the concept was just a way to rename a handy carbine stamped with some specific Cooper criteria that doesn't make it any better or worse. The IER scope was an artifact of the time. If they were so useful we would see them used more often outside of the Scout rifle fashion. That's just my opinion and I am sure many people love them. When I first read about the concept 20+ years ago I thought it had merit. I bought a Ruger GSR and hated the IER scope in the field so I stripped the rail and mounted a compact scope over the action. Now I have a handy .308 carbine with a DBM and a Rhodesian sling. Its a useful little hunting rifle. | |||
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I passed by my local gun selling dude this afternoon after work and had a look at two Rugers on the shelf. The one was a short 16inch and some barreled plastic stocked scout with a muzzle brake and 10 shot metal mag the other was a Laminate GSR withthe GSR logo and a polymer mag and a flash hider... barrel a little longer. Both had the Ruger "funny screw" up front on the action which scares me no end ! So my question: How accurate are these little guns ? The Scout concept called for 2 inches at 100 yards... more like a people shooting gun and not so much precision ..... but that aside What are these offerings capable of or is this another futile exercise in search of accuracy befitting a ranch type gun ? | |||
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Well, my steyr when I put a higher magnification scope on it was easily 1/2 MOA out to 200 with 3 shot groups. just above 3/4 MOA with 5 shot groups...maybe from flinching or something as the first 3 were pretty much touching all the time, but the 4 or 5th one would be about 1/2 inch out. not too bad for a light plastic fantastic. The IER scope works well for snap shooting or shooting moving targets in my experience. Anything else, a "regular" scope works better for me. | |||
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Also when cooper started talking about this he wanted the ability to use Military bolt actions and stripper clips. With the advent of actions that take detachable mags the need for a forward mounted scope is not there. Both of my scout type rifles are built on Military actions. Mounting a scout scope on them was the easiest and cheapest. | |||
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For the scout-rifle skeptics, here's Richard Mann's review of Mossberg's Scout entry: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=be8NzsFvp1k Having read it twice through now, I can highly recommend Mann's book, "The Scout Rifle Study." It covers a lot of ground on the various forms of this weapon, including commercial and home-made variants, along with accurate citations to Col. Cooper's ever evolving notions of what constituted its proper characteristics. See here: https://www.amazon.com/Scout-R...entury/dp/1983512540 If you want to try building your own Scout Rifle from a 'donor' gun, Bob Cashner's revised book is helpful as to the 'parts & pieces' needed. You might, however, want to skip over his silly political rants about holding off gun-grabbing, totalitarian-minded Feds in jackboots with a general purpose bolt gun that runs a low-power, forward-mounted scope. Otherwise, it's a decent book for giving you ideas for a build. Here's the link: https://www.amazon.com/Poor-Ma...-Guide/dp/158160730X All The Best ... | |||
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Having never owned a Ruger GSS I can't say how accurate they tend to be. But my wife's little Compact in 308 with a Burris Compact 3-9 Duplex reticle scope. And 150 gr moly tumbled Rem Core Lock bullets will shoot 5/8" 3 shot groups at 100 y. From a plastic MTM rifle rest. Loaded with Rl15. A good load. Not even sure its max book. But it chronograph s @ 2700 fps. Never experienced any pressure signs. I've never touched the bedding on that gun. I did lighten the trigger to around 3 lbs. It's absolutely accurate enough for most any hunting situation. And while I never used it as a truck gun. She used it as her 4 wheeler gun . In Southeast Alaska where it got rained on most days. Read, DRENCHED. Its just one of those nice little totally dependable rifles. A friend laughed at it when he saw it at the range one day. Made a comment to the effect ( what are you going to do with that little toy) . Then I shot a group that was half the size of the best group he shot that day with his 22+24" barreled 270 and 06. The only thing he could gripe about after that was that he had to wear his ear muffs when I was shooting it. Imagine , a guy wearing hearing protection when at an active shooting range. Neither my wife or I think its overly loud. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Yes they are, but CRF and NRE . FE. Glocks are more reliable ;-) Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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That happens after shooting short barreled rifles with out hearing protection. I went through a short barrel phase. I have rifles as short as 16 inch 308. I have shot 10 inch ARs very loud IMHOs. IMHO they are louder then longer barrels ones. | |||
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My take and its personal preference: I really want to like the Ruger GSR ! Every time I pass by my local gun seller I look at it..... but there is this elephant in the room and its the reports on the web concerning accuracy. The general gist being that this is not a sub MOA gun and for the most we are looking at somewhere between 2 inches and 1 1/2 being the norm Many feel ( and its their preference) that this accuracy of the RSR is acceptable for hunting ? For me in this day and age I find this hard to digest especially in view of the fact that many if not all of my old guns, some now 122 years old outshoot this RSR ! I have military carbines that will outdo the RSR using open sights ! if I make a bad shot I want to have the confidence to know it was me and not the gun ... I can then work on the "me" to correct the problem..... if it is me and the gun and the gun is at issue I have no way of correcting the problem of the bad shot ! | |||
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A bit, but other than a gun with a silencer on it . ALL firearms are loud ! Loud enough to damage hearing. I wear hearing protection when at the range or playing around. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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