Hi guys,
Looking for data for the 500 Nitro 3" with 570gr Woodleigh RN softs or solids, have used H4350, but looking for data with available powders here in Australia like RE15, 760, Vhitavouri or similar. None of the IMR range is available here, so any help regarding the other powders mentioned would be appreciated.

Thanks.
416RigbyHunter.

Take a look in the double rifle thread, I just bumped up a thread you might be interested in.

(approximately) 105 grains OMR 4831 fills the case to the base of the bullet.
Cal

Just on my way back to oz from Vegas SCI
I will check my load using ADI and 570 projectiles. 103 grains sounds familiar for 2208 . Will check and post later.

Cheers

Nick

With conventional 570 bullets and R-15...start at 92 grains with 96-97 as max with enough 5/8 foam backer rod to fill the void. Load to regulation.

Thanks guys, data seems thin on the ground lately.

Cheers.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
With conventional 570 bullets and R-15...start at 92 grains with 96-97 as max with enough 5/8 foam backer rod to fill the void. Load to regulation.

Similar experience here although depending on the lot of RL15 I have sometimes had to go as high as 99 grains of RL15. Also I use the Kynoch foam wads (believe they are the #2's). All packed in front of a Federal F215M primer. I have done a lot of shooting in the .500NE with RL15. I much prefer RL15, despite the need for a filler, to other powders since it really does make a difference in felt recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
With conventional 570 bullets and R-15...start at 92 grains with 96-97 as max with enough 5/8 foam backer rod to fill the void. Load to regulation.

Similar experience here although depending on the lot of RL15 I have sometimes had to go as high as 99 grains of RL15. Also I use the Kynoch foam wads (believe they are the #2's). All packed in front of a Federal F215M primer. I have done a lot of shooting in the .500NE with RL15. I much prefer RL15, despite the need for a filler, to other powders since it really does make a difference in felt recoil.

+1!!!

I will add with mono's like NF's or CEB's...when you get to the 96+ range for sure but depending on seating depth...the need for foam becomes questionable.

I too use Kynoch wads some...but I found no different in the foam backer rods you can buy for pennies at hardware store.

RL 15 and 570 barness and shoots like a charm
Haven't tried anything else

The new Norma manual lists the 500 NE 3".

Try Hodgdon Annual Manual for 2014 (available direct from Hodgdon), Pages 16 - 23.

Also African Dangerous Game Cartridges, by Pierre van der Walt, 2011, Pages 420 - 425.

Send a PM and I will Xerox the above noted references/articles.

Finally...

Shooting the British Double Rifle, by Graeme Wright, 3rd Edition, 2009, pages 97 & 158.

Mike and Lane, I was just about to chime in concerning the foam filler, then realized the topic is based on the Woodleigh 570gr. As stated, I've never needed filler with the 570gr monos and RL-15. And I've started with 93grs, working up to 97. Currently, 97 grs with the NF 570s is giving me 2,115fps in a 24" barrel.

Thanks again everyone, it's appreciated.

Cheers.

Just checked my load
2209 103grns with 570 woodleigh
This replicates The HOrnady load in my gun and regulates beautifully!!

I have a question?...not trying to cause a hoohaw, just curious.

Why not use a slower powder that gives the same pressure and velocity and regulates a double rather than going the filler route.

The filler weighs something and I think I would rather use that weight in powder than in basically useless weight.

I like RL-15 for a lot of my larger bores but I also go with RL-17, 19, 22 when I want to fill the case to above 90%.

Are these other powders incapable of regulating a double or is it just that powder has a history that everyone uses without thinking of trying something else?

You have to go with a powder and charge level that allows for the two barrels of your double rifle to regulate at a decent distance from the muzzles. There is also the matter of recoil. A slow powder load may often be 20-30-grains greater than a R/L-15/N 203B load. That accounts for a fair amount of recoil.

Anyway, when you get your rifle regulated at an acceptable recoil level, you may, or may not have open space. The weight of the correct type of a foam filler is actually negligible compared to the weight of the other components of the loaded cartridge.

Federal loads some boomers with R/L 15 (which does not display the SEE [secondary explosion effect]) by using their M216M high brisance match primer. They have no plans on releasing that to the canister trads.

This topic is discussed in greater detail in Graeme Wrights book on loading the British Double rifle. Enjoy your research journey.

RigbyHunter,

H4350 is manufactured in Australia.

It is sold there as AR2209. At twice the price as in the U.S. Go figure...

A lot more available than some of the imported powders at the moment.

Cheers, Chris

I understand about double rifle regulating and the requirements thereof, I was asking about the weight of the fillers.

I haven't weighed a foam filler but I've used Dacron, kapok, fiber, hard card, home made cardboard/cork and over powder wads etc and they all have weigh 5 to 30 gr or more in mixed lots in some cases...I add that weight to the other ejecta(powder/bullet) when calculating recoil AND when calculating pressures, but that's only paperwork/practice figures, in the field recoil might not be felt at all.

My concern/question was: Why not use that filler weight in a slower powder which may fill the case more and negate the use of fillers all together.

I try NOT to use fillers basically.

I was just wondering because I ran a few of the posted loads through Quick Load and found I could get close to the same pressure/velocity using a slightly larger(<15 gr of slower powder)amount...the recoil wouldn't be any different if the filler weight/additional powder weight was the same.

I haven't used foam fillers but I did read where the foam left residues that some reloader's didn't like...I have no empirical data to compare with so my question is rendered moot until I decide to try the foam fillers.

I have a 50-70 and a 50-90 that could use fillers with some powders and I can't find a powder to fill the gaps. My 20 and 12 ga from H*** both use a stack of fillers as do most of my shot shell loads.

I've wondered about this question but never found a viable answer.

Thanks

Once you shoot R-15 in the .500 NE...you are unlikely to like anything else.

You "probably" don't need foam with R-15 & Woodleighs...however it has been traditional to use it.

It certainly does not cause any problems to bore.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Once you shoot R-15 in the .500 NE...you are unlikely to like anything else.

Or . . . try shooting H4831 in the .500 NE, then try RL15 . . . you are unlikely to like anything else other than RL15.

As noted above, you probably don't need a filler with RL 15 in a 500NE. I use 1/2 of a #2 foam filler with Woodleighs and none with monolithics like Northforks and CEBs. Two things you will note for sure, your loads will be very consistent within a given lot of powder and there will be SIGNIFICANTLY less felt recoil.

Nice to know that a foam filler doesn't cause problems...never know for certain just what/where information comes from. I will try some.

Which powders to use for what caliber and why are personal...that does cause great umbrage at times.

Kinda like when you're eyeball deep in hippos and crocs, the piranha's seem like small potatoes.

My 50 cal Rigby wildcat with slightly less case capacity(~145 gr H2O to 152) as the 500 3", 590 gr Beartooth cast lead, likes 100 gr RL-17 for ~2100 fs/~36.5 KPSI/~5800 ftlbs and 96% load density. I've only shot cast lead into my sand pile and it sure makes a crater.

Anyone try RL-17? Quickload numbers look very good.

Hornady 8th ed lists Norma URP, H4350, XMR4350, IMR4007, RL17, IMR4350 and H4831SC all max at ~101 to 107.4 for 2100 fs in a 24" bbl.

Looking through some of the Data that Sam and I gathered in 2012 we used and tested the following powders:

IMR 4350
WW 760
V-N140
IMR 4007
RL 17
V-N550
RL 15
Big Game
Hybrid 100
XMR 4350
Varget
Hornady SuperPerformance
H-4831
IMR 4831
IMR 4064
RL 19
RL 22
IMR 8208
Blend of 65% IMR 8208+35% RL 15
IMR 7383
IMR 3031
H-380
H-414

One must be extremely careful of different batches of powder, while RL 15 is a huge offender, other powders exhibit differences as well.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Once you shoot R-15 in the .500 NE...you are unlikely to like anything else.

Or . . . try shooting H4831 in the .500 NE, then try RL15 . . . you are unlikely to like anything else other than RL15.

Exactly!

For me it was IMR 4350 vs. R-15, 106 vs. 96 respectively for the same ~vel and regulation.

There was NO comparison between the killing power on the back end...4350 won by a huge margin.

R-17 has been looked at quite extensively in the .500 NE...due to how it looks on QL.

Mike Brady, the original owner of NF, became very fond of the powder and it came to be his favorite .338 WM and .348 Win powder. He thought it might be the cat's meow for the .500 NE but pressures got too high before satisfactory velocity was achieved in his tests...esp compared to R-15.

Michael458's data (posted on his website) revealed it to be an acceptable powder...but not a forerunner.

I tried it in my double but never could get velocity fast enough to achieve real good regulation. The barrels grouped pretty good...just could not get them to come fully together.

Now...after shooting R-15 for a good spell...I have a superb load for my rifle with 570g CEB BBW #13 solids. I would not even consider a different powder.

I ve wondered about the same question about powders since a custom reloading shop used my .505 Gibbs and set it up with RL 25 (144gr, 2270fps). RL 15 seems to be a favorite on this site whereas on LOngrangehunting it is Retumbo. For my .375/408ct/505 case I was told to use 143gr Retumbo. I m ignorant about the virtues. Appreciate insights. Is it Africa temperature, consistency, short barrels and complete burn, spacing?

Only taking into account Velocity/Pressure, Extreme Spreads for both, compression, basically powders that did a good job in these areas...... Not taking into account regulation..... Just loads and pressures.......

Top Powders....

WW 760
RL 15
V-N140
IMR 4350
IMR 4007
RL17
V-N550

Michael,
Have you considered trying Norma 203B? It is supposed to be the RL-15 that met all of their specifications.
Rick

NON,

Just stand up on your hind legs one day and touch off about 4 rounds of 96 gr of R-15 behind a 570 in a .500 NE just to to get the feel for it and then slide in 2 with the same bullet with 106 gr of IMR 4350 behind them for comparison and then get back with me.

Well...all right...RL-15 it is.

Does anyone have the actual H20 weight of a Hornady, Jamison and Starline 500-3" cases?


I keep running across weights between 148-152 gr.

I've have a wild hair to do a 30-34" 50-140 Quigley for a long time...but now that Hornady brought out the 500 3" and it is slightly larger, dies are cheaper(but brass isn't) I might just change my mind. Maybe just rechamber my 50-90 Quigley.

So many projects to do, so little time, so little money...life ISN'T FAIR.

Thanks Michael for your comment

J...I won't argue a mans taste in women, guns, loads, forms of transport or how much a rifle kicks...but I do have a passing acquaintance with shooters that tickle your fancy.

I don't know if I could discern the difference in 10 grains differential in weight, tho"...were talking about 3-5 ftlbs. That's not much considering the 70 odd ftlbs in a 500 3".

But, you're right...a few shots of those rounds will get the heart rate up and the ouchees running for cover. Wild Turkey can't compare.

I don't mind shooting my boomers, it just the load workup that I hate...even with 12-14 lb rifles and a 25 lb sissy bag, 70-100 plus ftlbs can wear an old phaht like me down quickly.

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
Michael,
Have you considered trying Norma 203B? It is supposed to be the RL-15 that met all of their specifications.
Rick

Rick....
When Sam and I were doing the data on the 500 NE we used every single powder that would even come close to being suitable, everything we both had in stock at the time, and everything we could get our hands on when some of the guys
had requests..... Neither of us had any Norma powders, not me, not sure if Sam did or not, and I have never worked with any at all, so I had none. No one requested, so it was never thought of by us.

Right now, since no guns are rigged up to do pressures, I doubt there will be any new data for some time to come. I think we have more data right now on 500 NE than any other source on the planet with 23+ different powders, and I don't think that even counts the "reduced Load" data....... Not likely to try something else for a long time now with so many loads available currently...........

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
J...I won't argue a mans taste in women, guns, loads, forms of transport or how much a rifle kicks...but I do have a passing acquaintance with shooters that tickle your fancy.

I don't know if I could discern the difference in 10 grains differential in weight, tho"...were talking about 3-5 ftlbs. That's not much considering the 70 odd ftlbs in a 500 3".

But, you're right...a few shots of those rounds will get the heart rate up and the ouchees running for cover. Wild Turkey can't compare.

I don't mind shooting my boomers, it just the load workup that I hate...even with 12-14 lb rifles and a 25 lb sissy bag, 70-100 plus ftlbs can wear an old phaht like me down quickly.

That is the point...do the test and you will notice...garanteed. That 10 gr difference makes a huge impact (pun intended ).

You might be right...I tend to downplay subjectivity no matter what it concerns.

Small example and not to belabor the point...I have/had a friend who lives about a mile and a half from me. I'm shooting something almost daily so he hears me banging away and sometime comes around when he has a new shooter to show off or just to talk.

He is one person that should NEVER have a gun any where near him, if you know what I mean. Some years ago he ended up with Savage 110's in 7mm mag and 300 Win mag.

Recoil with the 7mm mag didn't seem to bother him too much, but the 300 scared the doo doo out of him.

I have both of those calibers/brand also so one day I loaded up 5 rounds each with 150 gr bullets to the same velo...same weight components...I didn't weigh the individual loaded rounds so there might have been a difference there, and I didn't chrono them, just crunched Quick Load to come up with loads that fit. The rifles weighed the same on my digital scale so the recoil would be very similar.

I called him up and said I had some new bullets I wanted to try and come on over and bring his 7 and 300 mags.

I won't tell you how badly he shot up my PVC pipe target holder, but after 3 rounds of 7 mag I had to make another one.

I shot the last two and they were touching upper right corner, 6" from center.

When he went to the 300, all I told him was "cuidado", Be Careful. 3 rounds, "Oh my god", "that hurts", "Jesus that kicks"..."you shoot the rest"...NERER HIT THE TARGET...one round hit the ground about 50 yards in from and the rest went into the woods, who knows which direction.

I shot the other two and broke my own PVC pipe, left side. My fault for not targeting the rifles in the first place...He said they were set 2" high at 100M.

Sometimes I still believe what people say.

I couldn't tell any difference in recoil in either rifle...I use the same 7 mag load today with my last few 150 gr Nosler discontinued bullets and I shoot mostly 200 gr Nosler and Hornady bullets in my 300 mag

Basically my intent was to show him neither one kicked hard enough to hurt and to work up loads to cure his trigger jerking etc.

He thinks I set him up, traded/sold off the rifles and doesn't come over more than once every couple of months.

So much for subjectivity, trying to help, and being careful WHO you try to help.

I have no doubt you believe what you say...I don't have a 500 3" to test but I have plenty of other rifles that shoot heavy bullets at or well above the recoil levels of that cartridge.

Pretty much all I know is once past about 60 ftlbs, I can't tell much other than "THEY HURT" and some loads hurt more.

I have 8 rounds to fire off I loaded several years ago that have been in the rifle magazine, hanging on the wall next to the back door, as soon as the weather clears, in my 50 cal Rigby wildcat...475 gr Beartooth cast, 110 gr Varget, seated 3.25" to work through the old Ruger M77 Tang, ~2500 fs/6585 ftlbs...79 ftlbs of tickle, WITH a Muzzle brake.

This is only one of the "standard" loads for this rifle I keep loaded up ready for T-Rex if he should think about coming over/through/under the back fence. I won't mention the "god awful" messes I have for my 45-120 or the other smaller cannons. Hahahahahahahah

See this thread.

J...One last little bit...I'm still trying to understand what your point was.

I don't know which double you have or what it weighs so I ran your figures for 9, 10 and 11#(my fat 50 cal wildcat's weight) weights using your 95 gr RL-15/2125 fs and 106 gr IMR 4350/2096fs and a Woodleigh 570 gr bullet through Quick Load just to see how far out of it I might have been.

And also two of my loads...475 gr Beartooth/3.22" OAL/case length 2.70-138 gr H2O/96.5 gr Varget/~2199 fs( slightly less than the load I posted above as it was 105% density) and a 533 gr Cast Performance/3.25"/case length 2.84"/145 gr H2O/96.5 Varget/~2207fs.

Your data produced( in weight sequence)...RL-15 - 92.48/83.24 ftlbs...IMR4350 - 95.45/85.95 ftlbs.

The same loads in my 11# rifle produced 78.14/75.68 ftlbs.

My two loads produced 61.09 ftlbs/475 gr and 71.03 ftlbs for the 533 gr. Both of these load are made to work through the Ruger and crimp in the bullets crimp groove...the reason for the difference in case length.

58 gr difference in bullet weight, same powder weight, same velocity per se only produced ~10 ftlbs difference in recoil

I have some other loads for the Ruger using cast 662 gr and 690 gr BMG bullets I wont go into.

Again, I'm just trying to understand what your meaning was, not get a hoohaw going, and not diss or flame anyone, but I think that's well past now.

Subjectivity is a powerful force in the lives of people, I see it all the time probably because it was a subject of my early college studies.

I can see only ~3 ft lbs of difference in actual recoil in your loads and I can tell only a slight difference in the 10 lbs difference in my loads.

It's simple for the same out put from the muzzle...you get less "kick" from R-15.

Go back to the thread above and read again now.

I read into your post something that wasn't there, I think...I've read it several times and I keep getting the impression there was a large difference in smackdaddy. I must be inured to recoil...I still can't feel the difference in 3 ftlbs of recoil and I HAVE tried.

Doesn't matter...we each perceive recoil differently.

Didn't mean to go anal on you.

I'm working with 4 heavy hitters right now...a 45-120 and three 50 cals...all with 525 gr and heavier bullets, and velo's from 1800-2400 fs. Maybe I just punchy from all the whacking around I'm feeling.