Howdy!

Yesterday evening I watched "The Ghost and
The Darkness"...for the umpteenth time.
This time I especially focused on the guns used
by the two main characters:
Col.Paterson(Val Kilmer) and
John Remington(Michael Douglas)
Correct me if I`m wrong but to my eye Paterson`s
rifle was a highly rebuilt/sporterized
Lee Metford MkII in .303 British,equipped with a
sliding breech cover and 5-round magazine.
Remington had a top lever double.(I couldn`t
recognize the make as to me all doubles look
almost identical) Judging by the size of the muzzles and remembering the events take place in
1898,I`m inclined to say that the double pictured was chambered for one of these calibers
450 Nitro Express 3.25"
500/450 Nitro Express 3.25"
500 Nitro Express 3"
To back up his double,Remington carried also a
handgun(or should I say "handcannon'? )
A percussion cap double barreled Over/Under
muzzleloading pistol of about .60 - .69 caliber
with saw handle style grip.Hah!Did you notice
the pistol was equipped with a folding bayonet!?
When all else fails stab that nasty SOB in the eye! Or maybe..When the animal charges
you,fix the bayonet and charge it too! LOL
I spotted that bayo when looking at the guns in
slow motion and I immediately felt Hollyweird
"experts" lurking out there somewhere.Anyway,the
pistol itself was quite interesting.
As I love "What if.." games concerning guns,and
I`m curious of your opinion,let`s consider such a scenario: You`re in Africa in 1898 with similar mission as Paterson/Remington team,but
besides copeing with maneaters,you must also hunt to provide food for your camp.What guns would you choose? Two conditions:
-Only "epoca" i.e. actually existing in 1898
guns allowed,so no "I`d take my trusty .375/416
458 etc"statements please.
-You can pick 5 guns of any type,to arm yourself
and your partner/s
After some considerations I`ve decided for the
following guns:
1.Stopping rifle-A good double in 500NE 3"
Top lever or snap action.
2.Plains game rifle-Mauser M1898 8mmx57 with a
side mounted scope to keep clip loading,or
M1888 Commission Rifle 8mmx57,in case the `98
would be too much a "newcomer"
3.Handcannon-J.D. Doughall 16gauge "Howdah".
4.Selfdefense handgun-Webley Green 6" barrel
in .45 Colt
5.Shotgun-Winchester M1897 12gauge.It was a
no brainer here.

Over to you...

Regards
------------------------------------------------

This was discussed when the movie first came out.I watched it again as you did and enjoyed it. IIRC the Lee was made in civilian versions in 6, 8 and 10 rounds magazine versions.

"This was discussed when the movie first came out"

Yup!If my memory serves me well there was a
thread `bout tG&tD end of 2002 or beginning
2003.Anyway,I think there are topics that
deserve..let`s call it "refreshing" from time
to time.

And IIRC that previous thread wasn`t "What if"
style. C`mon then. Let`s have a little 19th
Century Africa dream

Regards
------------------------------------------------

I'll play

However, I stipulate that I'm not the antique firearms connoisseur that some are.

1. A big double of some sort, just to fit in.

2. "Big medicine", .405 Win, Model 1895 - or 1886 in 45-70 .

3. Light rifle, 30-30 Win, Model 1894.

4. "Equalizer, .45 Colt, Model 1873, 7.5 barrel.

5. Shotgun, make mine a double (L.C. Smith?), 10 guage. This even though I own a '97 Win - too new to be trusted in '98.

No "hand cannon" needed, but would like big Bowie knife with about a 12" blade.

See my articles on "guns of the pioneers" on the African Hunter website, and Winchesters in Africa discussed in the lever gun forum.

I think it would be difficult to beat the local choice of the time. The .500NE was only introduced in December 1898 so that's out, and the .450NE in March of the same year, so only just available.

In Southern Africa owning a .303 was law in the british protectorates and in the transvaal republic you had to own a Mauser 7mm (either the M93 or M95)

The most powerful round available for smokless powder and actually available was the High speed loadings of the .45-90 and that would be my choice in a Winchester '86. I would have taken a Lee Speed sporter in .303 or a mauser carbine in 7mm as a spare and for hunting elephants (their solids would reach the brain even from the front).

Most of the shotguns of the age wouldn't pattern worth a darn with buckshot so a H&H paradox (or W-R "explora" or or ) gun would be my choice for birds and spare rifle for walking outside at night to see who's after the horses.

That webly army model in .45 long colt has much to recomend it. Stronger and lighter than the W-G (it is a solid frame, side gate loading double/single action revolver)

"I`ll play"
We`re open! Come in!!Admission free!!

"Big Medicine',.405 Win,Model 1895-or 1886 in in 45-70."
Hmm..the .405 was introduced in 1904,so if a "40" cal.
M1895 is considered it would have to be a 40-72 Win.

"..45 Colt Model 1873,7.5 barrel"
MMmmmmm...the feel of a classic
And those 40grain BP loads....

"No 'hand cannon' needed,but would like big Bowie knife
with about a 12" blade."
No doubt,the knife is probably the oldest & the most useful
multi-purpose tool ever invented,but having a lion chewing your
leg or arm what would you prefer to have??

" High speed loadings of the 45-90 and that would be my choice in
a Winchester `86."
First off..Ganyana,it is na honour to have you as a responder to my post.
My hat is off! Perhaps it`s just a coincidence,but I`ve always thought
the `1886 Winchester was THE ULTIMATE lever action rifle.
`98 Mauser of lever actions.Considering this action,what do you think
`bout 50-110 HV for Arican use?Thin skinned game only I presume,but it`s JMO.

"The Webley Army model in .45 long colt has much to recommend it.
Stronger and lighter than the W-G"
The Webley I actually meant is a derivative of the Army(birdshead grip)Model
of 1879,introduced in 1882 and featuring a square butt grip and odd cylinder
fluting.BTW.The .45 Long Colt cartridge is known of its skimpy little rim.
Do you know of any cases of failure to extract/eject in ,45LC DA revolvers?

Thanks for the replies Gentlemen.

Regards

okay.. i'll give it a shot

double rifle/shotgun - 12 bore paradox rifle.. solids, softs, and shot.

2 rifles - 22 lr rimfire ..can carry a ZILLION rounds in a 2'x2' crate (invented 1887). same make/model

2 pistols - 22 lr rimfire , same make model.

oh, and several chucks of sulfer, and a grinding bowl....


run it down to 2 guns....

22 LR pistol
577 Nitro


run it down to 1 gun
22 long rifle rifle.


run it down to "you can take 20# with you"
22 rifle
1000 rounds
water
sulfer...


"why the sulfer jeffe?"

burn some sulfer.. fumigate
grind/rub on wounds .. crude anticeptic
Majic blue smoke stone!!

jeffe

quote:

To back up his double,Remington carried also a
handgun(or should I say "handcannon'? )
A percussion cap double barreled Over/Under
muzzleloading pistol of about .60 - .69 caliber
with saw handle style grip.Hah!Did you notice
the pistol was equipped with a folding bayonet!?

The double pistol that Douglas carried is a “Howdahâ€, named after the seats on the Elephant’s back. The pistol was a last ditch protection from Tigers and came in all the popular shotgun bores of that time period(16, 12 & 10). It was also available in many large caliber(up to .70 caliber) cartridges of that time period. While some of them were cap and ball some were also converted to pin fire. The only one I have ever seen at an auction brought sold for a very high price. Lawdog

Hi Darth

The few W-G revolvers I have seen converted to .45 Long colt did have ejection trouble. A few were factory made in .44-40 for the american market.

The webly army models (1873 and 1876) Lokk very similar to the colt lightning or thunderer revolvers (belive there was a patent infringemet suit against colt). Being side gate loading with ejector rod, they worked fine with the colt round. Mostly made in .450 boxer and .476, but- the pioneer corps which marched up from south Africa to occupy rhodesia in 1890 were all armed with 1876's chambered to take the long colt round and could also use .455 or .476 ammo. Reason? the two things a hangun was needed for was keeping a lion off your horse, and a doped up matebele off your chest, and Col Johnston wanted the most powerful double action revolver he could possibly equip his men with - at a basement price!

I have never seen one of the big .50 cal rounds in Africa, either in the winchesters otr the colt lightnibg rifles (which were quite popular).

Hi again!

"2 rifles-22lr rimfire..."

Jeffe,your choice is interesting and dare I say
quite unusual.Methinks though,that the .22LR
was until 1900 comercially loaded only with
black powder.(5 grains IIRC)If so,you would end
up with today`s .22 Short energywise.
Something tells me you are just kidding.
You wouldn`t be a permanent poster(and moderator)
in >Big Bores< if your gun of choice for Africa
is a .22 LOL! C`mon,what guns would ya take in
1898?

"water,sulfer"
You mean sulphur?Hm..good survival trick.
I haven`t heard of it before.

Ganyana
"The .500NE was only introduced in December 1898
so that`s out,and the .450NE in March..."
That surprised me.The 3" .500 case is an oldie,
as well as the 3" .450.
The Britons had cordite since 1892,why they
waited six years before introducing Nitro loads?
Btw,how about the .577NE?

"Stronger and lighter than the W-G(it`s a solid
frame,side gate loading double/single action
revolver"
"Look very similar to the colt lightning."
Now I`m a bit confused.I`ve seen a Webley
matching your description,however in my
references is was listed not as Webley Army,but:
"Webley Frontier Model 1878"
I`ll describe it briefly:
The gun has ~6" barrel,(like you said) a solid
frame,side loading gate,DA/SA action.Ejector
similar to that of the Colt SAA on the right
side of the barrel attached with two screws,
birdshead grip with a lanyard ring,detachable
triggerguard.Could it be the same gun?
Or maybe it is an export model for U.S. in.45 or
44-40,hence "Frontier" (??)

"The few W-G revolvers i have seen converted to
.45 Long Colt did have ejection trouble"
Well,I`ve been interested in ESOP
(Extractor Star Override Problem)since I read
about it in Shooting Times several years ago.
I also have investigated a couple of forums,but
all .45LC DA revolver owners whom I asked about
ESOP so far,claimed they never had any ejection
or extraction problems in their Smiths,Colts
Rugers,Tauruses etc.Interestingly,
the.454 Casull has the same .509-.512" dia. rim
and the same .480" base,yet there`s no reports
of ESOP in the new SuperRedhawks or Raging Bulls
The deeper I go the less I know.One fact gets
busted by another fact...good to get a headache

It`s all similar to the issue with .458 rifle
rounds based on .404 brass and their headspacing
Some have problems,some don`t....but I digress.
Anyway,in my opinion the .45 Long Colt is the
best handgun cartridge available in 19th century
but the solid frame revolvers of that period
while beautiful are ssooo sssllllooooooooowwww
to reload,I thought the Long Colt cartridge in a
top-break Webley offering simultaneous ejection
would be "the best of both worlds".
Comments welcome

Regards

Darth,
22 rimfire.. yep yep yep.

While I am a serious big bore fan and shooter (not the big bore mod, that's George s) the 22 is THE most practical of all available rounds.. you can generally plan/talk yourself out of most situations, especially ones where a stopping rifle would be in order...

andif I was ever limited to ONE rifle, and would have to walk from the headwaers of the nile to cape town, i would want a 22 rifle..

small, light, and 200 rounds weighs about the same as 3 or 4 577 NE rouds.

If you take out the big 5, it's decent for most pot (stirring).. er filling, and will flat take out FOOD... and, since it's rather smallish, you could make it on just fowl from one end to the other, not blowing them all to feathers

Anything that you could sneak up to "bow" range is easily in the pot with a 22.

jeffe

This thread has wandered off course but if my memory serves, Paterson used a .303 rifle. He borrowed a larger caliber Fraser or Farquharson single shot on one of his lion hunts and the thing misfired at a critical moment and nearly got him killed. I think that sequence was in the movie too.

A 22 would be good, but make mine a 22WMR. Weight of rifle and ammo about the same and twice the power. And the Winchester FMJ ammo will kill small antelope with head shots at close range.

Hi Darth. That revolver of mine was made in 1876. But sounds exactly the same as your description- so yes, would think the Frontier was made for the US/Canadian market.

The first Nitro express big bore round was the .450NE introduced in early 1898 when the Brit government released chordite to the gun trade. Prior to that the only smokless rifle ammo available was Military .303 and .455. Smokless powder for shotguns was available from 1888 in the UK, but early lots kept blowing up guns when they got the loading densities wrong. As late as 1910 W.W. Greener was still recomending black powder if you reloaded or German Scultze powder for shotguns and pistol ammo.

G'day All, Darth44, was the howdah pistol equipped with a folding baynet, or a captive ramrod?

Cheers, Dave.

Hunting Cat: the weapon which failed was not a single but a double rifle of unknown maker. Patterson shot the second barrel and hit the lion in a hind leg, as per my book.
Regards

quote:

Originally posted by nainital:
Hunting Cat: the weapon which failed was not a single but a double rifle of unknown maker. Patterson shot the second barrel and hit the lion in a hind leg, as per my book.
Regards

In the movie the rifle that failed was a single shot which differs from the book, as does
many other points. Lawdog

quote:

Originally posted by Lawdog_Gary:
In the movie the rifle that failed was a single shot which differs from the book, as does
many other points. Lawdog

Many, many, many, many, many other points.

Ganyana,

Very nice article on "Guns of the Pioneers"!

quote:

Ganyana is a gun and ballistics fanatic, actively involved in Zimbabwe's hunting industry. His years spent in the field, both as a wildlife management researcher and hunter, has resulted in him collecting a selection of antique firearms, many with traceable, historic origins.

What facet of ballistics get you going?

Dan

The worst part of this storytelling was, adding Michael Douglas's fictional charactor to the storyline. They should have followed Patterson's book. In this case, the truth is better than fiction. Other than that it was pretty good.

Hog Killer

Hog Killer

There was a brilliant article in a recent "Magnum" magazine- taking the good col Patterson appart for the lying murdering cad he was. Man eaters of Tsavo is a good read- but fiction. The most notable thing about Patterson is he was the Role Model for the cad in Hemmingways "the Short, Happy life of Francis M"

A true "Remittance Man". (ie a black sheep who was sent to Africa by a wealthy family to be out of the way- Patterson's Father bought him his rank but even the Indian army wouldn't keep him)

Dan - you shoot 'em I dissect 'em- I'm one of the three court qualified Forensic Ballistic's men left in the country.

Lawdog Gary: I´m quoting Patterson´s own book about the double gun, not the movie.
Regards

Even the edition of "Man Eaters of Tsavo" that I own indicate that there was much about the circumstances that brought Patterson to that railroad project were not as he had written them. Perhaps some of the pieces of the story, such as the rail-road car trap, have at least some foundation in fact. But it is also likely that there was much dressing added to make a good story. Having said that, it is hard to fault the movie writers for taking yet more liberties with fact. At the least, I have to give my nod to them for taking on such a story, and not turning it into an antihunting platform, but instead allowing something of the power of the place to flow through. I figger he got the guns more or less right -- it makes the story better. The movie's depiction of a Howdah gun didn't seem too out of place, though -- looked quite tied in with a picture of the British Empire.

As for Francis McComber, his PH, Wilson, said

quote:

Wilson looked at her with his flat blue eyes.

“I’m through now,†he said. “I was a little angry. I’d begun to like your husband.â€

It struck me that McComber was growing up -- after having lost his nerve and another man's life in another incident facing dangerous game. That is, he was growing up until his wife shot him in the head. Its an expensive way to learn not to be a cad, and he only got the point at the very end (which is why, I suppose it was a "*short* happy life"). I think I quoted this story in another post here, saying that I suspected more than a few hunters hoped for at least some approval from their PH's, that they measured up well to a good standard... or at least didn't discover that they were cads underneath...

Ganyana -- mostly terminal ballistics then? More than a hobby, but your livelihood!

Dan

nainital,

quote:

Lawdog Gary: I´m quoting Patterson´s own book about the double gun, not the movie. Regards

Please take no offense but the thread is about the movie "The Ghost and The Darkness" and the question was also addrsses to the movie rifle that failed Val Kilmer and that is what I was commenting on.

Hog Killer,

Michael Douglas bought the movie rights to the Book "The Man-Eaters of Tsavo" and I guess ownership gives one the right to take literary freedoms with ones own property. Lawdog

quote:

Originally posted by Lawdog_Gary:

Michael Douglas bought the movie rights to the Book "The Man-Eaters of Tsavo" and I guess ownership gives one the right to take literary freedoms with ones own property. Lawdog

Like the old saying goes, "It's good to be the King"

Hog Killer

He bought himself a nice young wife too, Catherine Zeta-Jones.

And he did to Patterson's book the same thing he does to her whenever his feeble old carcass can manage it.

G`day
Sorry for the delayed response.

Jeffeosso
"..you can generally plan/talk yourself of most situations"
Well...yes,but pay attention to that word "GENERALLY".
If you`d have the Lady Luck as your most faithful ally
such strategy might work,however I think the sinister
Mr.Murphy follows us everywhere....Africa included.
AND...you`re on a mission(Kill the lions)remember?
With respect to your choice and experience,I hardly
imagine you shooting a maneater with that .22

"and if I was ever limited to ONE rifle,and would have to walk
from the headwaters of the Nile to Cape Town,I would want
a 22 rifle."
Wow!You are definitely more cold-blooded than I.

huntingcat
"This thread has wandered off course.."
I disagree.The thread is about choosing guns for times
and situations similar to those depicted in "tG&tD" movie.
I`d like the choices to be as much historically correct as
possible.That`s why some Qs must be asked,especially about
dates of introduction and/or reliability,efectiveness,
availability of given guns.
While generally a fun thread,I`d like it also to be
a little educative.

Mikelravy
"A 22 would be good,but make mine a 22 WMR"
Alas,much too early.The .22 WMR was introduced in 1959.
I think you meant its predecessor,the .22 WRF
(Winchester Rimfire) introduced 1890.While I`m not
sure I also doubt the WRF was loaded with jacketed bullets.

Sambar 9,3
"Darth 44,was the Howdah pistol equipped with a folding
bayonet,or a captive ramrod?"
I vote bayonet for two reasons:
1.The hinge under the gun`s muzzles looked exactly
19th century handgun bayonet type.If it was a capture ramrod
there would have to be a BIG U-shaped link so that
the ramrod could reach also the upper barrel,and
I guess some kind of a grasping piece on the end of
the ramrod.There was nothing like that.
2.All O/U front-stuffers I`ve seen had their ramrods
attached it the groove between the barels.Right or
left side,depending on maker.

mrlexma
"He bought himself a nice young wife too.Catherine Zeta-Jones"
She`s a real pretty.It`s good to be rich,isn`t it? I`d buy
also Heather Locklear..you know..Black & White.
Do they have them in store?

As I see it,my first 5-gun set will have to be reorganized
a bit.Thanks for the replies & keep them coming.

Regards

P.S. Ganyana,when was the .577 NE 3" introduced and
when first available in Africa?

quote:

Originally posted by nainital:
Hunting Cat: the weapon which failed was not a single but a double rifle of unknown maker. Patterson shot the second barrel and hit the lion in a hind leg, as per my book.
Regards

Oops, sorry, I got it wrong. It was a double rifle. I guess I missed another very good chance to be quiet.

Darth

The .577 NE was introduced in either December '98 or January '99. Same for the .577/.500, .500 NE.

When did they reach Africa? probably pretty quickly. Men were Impressed witht he .303, and 7,9 and 7mm Mauser cartridges and were howling for the chordite to become commercially available. Still there were extraction problems and neggative reports very quickly because by 1900 Eley, Kynock and several gun makers were introducing new cases with thicker rims designed expressly for the higher presssure chordite loads- eg H&H bought out the 500/.450, Eley the .450 No 2, Joseff Lang the .470, W.W. Greener the .475, the 3" versions of the .500 NE and .577. Jeffery bought out their massive .450 No 2 in 1901.

NB- British Army regulars in the more peacful colonies were still using Martini Henry rifles until after WW I.

I remember the same tale in a 3-D movie in the 1950's called "Bwana Devil". Robert Stack played the mighty lion hunter! Good story no matter when it is told!

"The 577NE was introduced in either December`98
or January `99.
Thanks for the info.

So,based on the info I received so far,
here`s my 5-gun "Africa 1898AD"set in its 2nd "edited" version.
1.A double rifle(top lever or snap action)in .450NE 3.25"
as a stopping rifle.
2.Mauser `98 or M1888 in 8mmx57
as plains game rifle
3.Winchester 1886 in 45-90 Win.HV
Plains game at closer range,and stopper
for those animals that are not in the "Big Five"
but could also be dangerous despite being smaller.
4.J.D. Doughall howdah 16gauge 1.8" as handcannon
5.Webley Frontier 6" .45 Long Colt

Now for some comments:
The Doughall howdah is a fascinating gun.It could
be fitted with a detachable shoulder stock
(Say DGC-Dangerous Game Carbine )for longer shots.
The ammo it fires is also interesting.While referred to
as 16 gauge,the 1.8" long cases are made of brass what
allowed the case walls to be thinner,what in turn
allowed to use .710" 535grs round ball as the projectile.
.710" is actually 13 gauge.
There were two loads available
2 dram BP for 725fps and 3 dram for 900fps
That faster load has TKO 48.
As to the action let me quote Ross Seyfried(he owns one)
"The Doughall 'Lockfast' action is a masterful work in
itself.The side lever rotates a cam that serves as the
hinge pin.The barrels move forward 1/8 inch before they
drop down.The breech face has two circular disks that fit
into chamber recesses behind the cartridge head.This
Lockfast has camming action and locking strength that
approach that of a bolt action."
In a word..WOW!

Concerning selfdefense handgun I thought about
Colt New Service(introduced 1897)for a while,but
I recalled the early models had problems with their
delicate lockwork and only in 1905 was the NS
rebuilt to improve reliability.I think the direction
of cylinder rotation was changed too.
If I`m stuck with side gate loaders I want all
possible advantages,thus Webley which offers double
action for faster shooting was chosen.

As you can see shotgun is gone.I thought it over
and came to conclusion it would be of little use
in Africa.For animals like birds or snakes some
shot loads could be concocted for the Howdah.
With such loads and the shoulder stock attached
the Howdah could serve as a makeshift shotgun.

Over to you....

Regards

Quote:
"... which differs from the book,as does
many other points."

"Many,many,many,many other points."

Unfortunately,I haven`t read the book
but I have nailed a "bug" in the movie.
There is a scene where Paterson/Kilmer is
loading his .303 with single cartridges...
the cartridges are topped with SPITZER bullets
(read 1910).
Essentially a trifle,but being a gunnut I like
historical corectness when guns are depicted.

quote:

Originally posted by DARTH 44:
Quote:
"... which differs from the book,as does
many other points."

"Many,many,many,many other points."

Unfortunately,I haven`t read the book
but I have nailed a "bug" in the movie.
There is a scene where Paterson/Kilmer is
loading his .303 with single cartridges...
the cartridges are topped with SPITZER bullets
(read 1910).
Essentially a trifle,but being a gunnut I like
historical corectness when guns are depicted.

Did you notice that the shoulder angle on the cartridges he was stuffing in his rifle were sharper than that on the .303 British. I don't think they were even British cartridges. For the time period the bullets should have been the 215 gr. round nose(if I remember right from my books). Lawdog

Who cares?

If Val Kilmer's Patterson had only found a reason to shoot the wholly and laughably fictional Michael Douglas character with that rifle, no matter what its caliber, bullet style, or shoulder angle, at point blank range, right square in the frontal lobes of his brain, instead of holding off and trying to use it against those pesky lions, the movie would have been immeasurably better.