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Exactly what I called it, Alf. A lot of opiinon but not one single statistic. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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I think I am going to use one to build a 9.3x70. Not quite sure about all of it yet, but that's the plan. Octagonal Pac-nor 26 inches custom bottom metal talley mounts NECG express sights Basner stock. | |||
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 DON'T BLAME ALF!  HE'S CANADIAN! | |||
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When looking towards the inner front ring on my Whitworth it is painfully obvious how thin the metal is behind that bottom lug , and this boy is going to stick to factory level or moderate pressure loads in my rifle . Furthermore , the magazine , aside from the loop of sheet metal in the front to get the extra length , is esentially the same dimentions as a military M-98 . This works pretty well with the skinny shouldered H&H cartridge , but if you load 375 Weatherby cartridges into the magazine , they show a tendendcy to jump out of the box and also tip up towards the front , resulting in a misfeed . The Weatherby rounds have too fat a shoulder to work properly in this magazine box . Also , loaded factory 375 Weatherby cartridges will not eject from the action , they are too fat and long . The dimention from front to rear receiver ring is about the same as a military 8mm mauser . The little groove cut into the top of the front ring to assist with loading even H&H cartridges should tell you , this action is really a makeshift affair for a long magnum round . | |||
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Gary (and Strut), I'm looking at a CD action, too. I've run through the thread and got a headache. Near as I can tell Browning guy, ramrod340, and vapodog all actually have one or more of these things. All seem to think they're safe and worth the money, though Vapodog's indicated the warranty and customer service isn't great. They did fix a returned mini-mauser for another poster (look up KBI/Charles Daly customer service), though it came set up for a .223 vice the .22-250 originally and had to be sent back. Hope this helps. Steve | |||
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I wouldn't do another 375 Weatherby on one for the feeding issues you bring up. I also think it's one AI that serves no real purpose anyway. OTOH, my 416 Remington is functioning just fine. Even ejects loaded rounds. As far as 3-pos safeties, I had an NECG fitted to mine with no problem. I'm sure the other brands are usable, too. The cocking piece is not interchangeable with military Mausers though so if you need a relacement be sure to specify a MK X or CD cocking piece. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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To all: In " my Africa" it is customary for hunters to sit way into the night around a hard wood fire. Here we would typically argue over the last dreggs of coffee ( Zambezi mud ) in the bottom of an old oil can ( used as a kettle ) the merits of guns, ammo, cars and not to forget politics. Sadly for me the socio-political scene of " my Africa" has changed and I now sit far from that fire. In a way the internet has become that fire and though it is a poor substitute it serves the same purpose. Ther rules of engagement of those sessions are quite clear: If give it on the nose you have to expect it back with interest. But then too once you get up to go to sleep you leave the arguements behind and no one goes away angry at the other. My wife once commented that if we would all agree that a certain gun or caliber is actually acceptable to all without reserve then she would buy one for each of us ? To this day her offer has been safe ! | |||
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........and I suspect that she will remain safe for a long time to come. S10 Founder....the OTPG | |||
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I have noticed that a number of gun writers have been quoted as gospel in this thread. I'd be willing to bet none of them have access to professionally done lab tests on any actions. They are repeating hearsay and WAGs of their own. The exceptions are Kuhnhausen, Olsen, Jon Speed. | |||
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Huntingcat, you're right but this AR forum has enough folks that think for themselves about the issues The outdoor writers get quoted a few times but I don't think it carries much weight with the folks here. They seem to be able to press their own points and attitudes. I'll read AR anyday over the gun rags and outdoor writers...the "so-called" (or self-called) experts. Among the most experienced hunters of the writers is Boddington and there's a thousand time more experience posting here than he has. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Well sir , Frank DeHaas recomended against building a Weatherby cartridge on these actions , due to his personal experiences in having rifles he built(on the opened up FN action) fail.....it may be an educated guess on his part without any "lab" data to back it up........but his opinion is good enough for me. | |||
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Figure 187 in Alf's post from the Kuhnhausen manual says it all for me. If you read ahead and look at figure 243 in the book which shows the max tolerable metal removed in order to feed a .30-06 length cartridge you'll see it leaves considerably more metal in place. I have asked for pics of actions opened in the rear on here before because I really like the idea of .375 H&H and .404 Jeffereys on 98 actions. I have not seen a source of quality photo's on this subject. Alf do you have any? Mike | |||
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This thread is startling. I am amazed at the sheer number of amateurs and so-called gunsmiths stubbornly determined to make embroidered and jewel-adorned silk purses out of sows' ears... If one goes to the expense of making a 9,3x70 rifle, I do not think that any other action than a Prechtl or a classic FN Magnum would be appropriate. Of course, you "can" also saw a Carcano action apart and then lengthen it. I still wouldn't think that this is a sensible proposal. And neither are the Zastava cheapos suitable material for custom rifles. Carcano -- "Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." "Is the world less safe now than before you declared your Holy war? You bet!" (DUK asking Americans, 14th June 2004) | |||
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I don't know about doing a 375 Weatherby. But as far as a 375 H&H in a "standard length"action. This is was Jack Lott had to say about it. Quote: "Most 375 Magnums (H&H) use standard length actions which like the Model 70 or the Mark X have been opened up for the 2.850- inch case, and if done properly such lengthening works fine. My Holland-Mauser and most Holland rifles for the 375 Belted Magnum are on opened up standard actions. Talk of setback resulting from such modification is rubbish so long as the adequate action hardness exists." Jack Lott was a gunsmith and experimental tool maker (good qualifications) he killed over 400 head of game with the 375 H&H. Also Wally Johnson and his partner Harry Manners both wore out barrels in model 70 375 H&H mags. | |||
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Well sir, maybe Frank fucked it up. Won't be first or last time a famous personage actually made a human error. Or maybe it was a Weatherby larger than the 375 which is not much more than a 375 AI. EXACTLY the same bolt thrust with the same pressures; maybe less if P.O Ackley was right about straighter cases gripping chamber walls. If that famous personage was right, a 375 Weatherby would then be SAFER to fire than a standard 375 by virtue of less bolt thrust. Which expert you gonna follow? You're dead right about one thing Alf, this is the stuff that makes for legendary drunken campfire speeches. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Actually , DeHaas documents the failure of an opened up FN action he built to 300 H&H improved in his book in the chapter on FN commercial Mausers. On a hunt , the rifle's owner fired a shot and was then umable to open the bolt . Upon examination of the rifle , it was found that the left half of the upper locking lug had cracked off . DeHaas concluded that a gradual bolt set back occured because of minimal support to the lower locking lug. This placed more and more of the load on the upper locking lug until it finally failed. There was no injury to the shooter as the safety lug took over , but the reciever and bolt were damaged beyond repair . Dehaas was also famaliar with similar cases of the old Weatherbys on the same FN action failing . Also , I don't believe the larger .378 case type Weatherby rounds were introduced until AFTER the Mark V action was adopted . Why mess with marginal actions when there are plenty of other actions better suited to the longer , hotter maganums ? How much you want to bet the FN s had better steel in them than anything coming out of Yugoslavia ? And no , I don't buy PO's theory on bolt thrust . But that has just about nothing to do with whether on not it is wise to cut away steel from behind the locking lugs on your bolt action rifle. | |||
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OK, I give. You guys keep saying the same thing over and over as do I. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Tiggertate, Or perhaps the Charles Daly actions really are crap but maybe you've built one and are reluctatnt to admit it? Everything ALF is saying is essentially correct. And, if these are made of alloy steels and through hardened, then they really aren;t any safer and perhaps less so. The case hardening approach is safer to the shooter because the action will set back and not grenade. A through hardened action is more likely to let go. All in all, these actions (starting with the FN) are cheaper imitations of the original Mauser 98. I do not regard these actions as a worthy platform to build a custom rifle on. Especially in H&H length cartidges. | |||
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Read again, Poleax. I've built 4 of them and I couldn't be happier. All four built on the same action, it was a 375 AI, a 300/8Mag wildcat, a 7 STW and now its a 416 Remington Magnum. I've been shooting high pressure loads on this rifle for 25 years and I love it. I also have a 375 H&H built on an FN Supreme and 9.3 x 62 built on a commercial '96 action that is also supposed to be crap. I am sitting on two CDs for new projects that will work just fine. By the way, Zastava has been doing this on actions since the 50s, Pole. If you're so sure these guys are right then YOU show me the statistics on how many times they've failed. Opinion is one thing, facts are another and no one has yet provided a fact about the technique although some have mentioned gunmakers who seem to have screwed up the process once or twice. Let's see: Zastava +10,000 and counting; gunmakers over their head, (?) -6 or -8. BTW, how many custom guns have you built on "worthy" platforms? "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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You know, a proper twin lug bolt will function fine with only one lug in contact (just look at all the Remingtons and other factory guns out there with only one lug making contact) so I am assuming in this case there were two defects: The action was soft and the bolt was too brittle. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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To the point that the mauser action provided by Zastava has been drastically weakened by eroding the foreward end of the magazine is undeniable. One only needs to look and see.....it's as Alf and others have said....thin. Top calculate the holding strength of this action requires knowlege of tensile and heat treat and that's not available to me and also the integral calculus required is many years in arrears to me as well. The calculation on the bolt is one of simple shear but that of the action is extremely involved and I'm not about to even attempt it. Having said that there's another way and that's testing.....and testing has been done for a very long time. Clearly stated....it works!!!! I don't know, nor am I capable of telling anyone, what the safety margin is but the proof of the pudding is in the eating and folks have been eating this pudding a long time. IMO the Zastava is capable of the purpose they sell it for. Charles Daly still sucks however. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I'll agree on all of that, Vapodog. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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For what it is worth, the Chas Daly version is not as well made as the earlier Mk-10's. In addition, the Mk-10's used Bohler (German) steel barrels, and I do not know what is currently used. | |||
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tigger I thought ya'll was done with this one(grin) The thing about one lug bearing , is in the case of the fromt opened action you lose alot of potential stength if the SPILT(upper) lug is carrying the load .
Agree with that , but Zastavia builds them in 375 H&H ; a moderate pressure load . Not STW s , not Weatherbys , etc. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Poleax: The case hardening approach is safer to the shooter because the action will set back and not grenade. A through hardened action is more likely to let go. Someone needs to get in touch with Remington, Ruger, Winchester, Savage and all the other major firearms manufacturers and let them know that the materials they use for bolts and receivers are liable to "grenade" any time now. That may be a rash statement. It is certainly uninformed. | |||
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agreed.....AISI 4140 at 38Rc is not grenade material at all. It's extremely high tensile and yield but that does not equate to being brittle. It's a very popular material for extremely high stress forgings and they just don't break at the hardness commonly associated to the material. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I have to admit that this discussion is way over my head. Therefore, I would like your feelings on using the CD action to make up a 9.3X62. Do the concerns still exist with this caliber? 4654H&H | |||
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Boy, you guys sure do lack in reading comprehension skills. I simply said more likely to let go, which is true. Is it a common occurance? No. It does happen though. Now, as to the matter of of 4140 steel and or Rems, Winchesters, et al, I did not mention them, only alledgedly alloy Mauser receivers built by Zastava. Everyone is speculating as to their composition. I simply said that if they were alloy and through hardened they were not as safe as thier case hardened cousins. That much is fact. I did not say they would go kaboom when you pulled the trigger just that they weren't as safe. Even if by only a small margin. You guys are reading a lot more into my statement than I put into it. As to a 9.3x62 on CD action, it would be as safe as the same rifle they sell in .30-06. But, I'd quote carcano91 here: "This thread is startling. I am amazed at the sheer number of amateurs and so-called gunsmiths stubbornly determined to make embroidered and jewel-adorned silk purses out of sows' ears..." I agree, I'd get a nice milsurp Mauser of known pedigree and customize it. It will not cost that much more and in the end you will have a much nicer product, one worthy of passing on to your kids or someone elses. But again, a 9.3x62 could be no worse on a CD action than a .30-06 that they already offer. | |||
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Well, to begin with, the thread is not about pride of ownership, pigs ears or high end rifles, it was about safety. BTW, Carcano1 is one of those people who measures his stature by how low he can manage to percieve others. I would be careful before becoming his buddy. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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I'm not trying to be Carcano's buddy, he simply made a statement that I agree with. The original topic was, "is the CD action worth enough to get the barreled action?" It then digressed into a discussion on whether the .375 H&H/.375 Weatherby was a good idea on a standard 98 action. Then it digressed further into a discussion about CD quality. My feelings are no to the first two questions. And I agree with Carcano that building a rifle on a CD action is a waste. You can pick up a goodl Military action for much less, spend the money to have the bolt replaced and the action drilled & tapped. The CD bolt bugs me anyway. Obviously the last statements are mostly a metter of personal preference but then again, I also believe that overall a good military mauser action is better than a Zastava action. I'm amazed at how hard you are trying to defend your decison to build rifles on these actions. | |||
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I'm bored. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Better than being boring!  | |||
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It'll do just fine. Absolutely none of the weakening issues discussed here are relevant to that length cartridge. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Charles Daly Mausers???
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