I am in the process of restocking my Rem 700 Custom wildcat which generates over 5500 fpe. I am wondering it there a difference in wood strengths? I am looking at buying a microfit 99% inleted stock. I like the looks of english walnut( would any other type of wood be superior?). Should I go with a low grade of wood or am I ok with a AA fancy? This is uncharted territory for me at this point. I plan to install recoil cross bolts.

Thanks Brad

English walnut is about as strong as you can get.

Walnut - Strong, light, and looks good. Many other species are stronger but not suited to gun stocks because of weight and or poor workability and finishing. Walnut is less expensive than most exotics as well.

Have RMF do "All" the work...

if you are set on them, great, I won't offer feedback on that choice..

since you state 5500ft-lb, I'll assume that this is what you consider to be a "Great big ol" round, which is fine with me....

MYself, I would start with turkish, then bastogne, then cali-english,(in that order) all of the above would have to be quartersawn, and the grain would have to flow through the wrist...

If bastogne, specify that it needs to be a dark one.. trust me, it takes some getting used to if you receive a light light light colored bastogne stock.

have RMF install your crossbolts, just easier that way...

are you having a recoil lug installed on the barrel?

when you bed it, you MUST relieve the rear of the action to stock area, to allow some clearence.. or you may blow out some wood

jeffe

Good advise there from Jeffeosso. Walnut is the winner in the looks to strength to weight ratio category.

Birch is actually stronger, but is it ever gawd aweful ugly! Maple is too, if you get the right species, but for me it is too bland. Most of the other "common" stock woods are either stronger and significantly heavier than walnut, or weaker.

Thanks for the Help. Jeffe I have not ordered from RMF stocks they just seemed to have the best selection. I don't feel 5500 fpe is a monster amount but more than your average 30-06. Therefore, I just wanted to get a nice piece of wood for my rifle. A mid-range starter stock I can enjoy looking at and use to hunt with. This is a hunting rifle for Elk not a safe queen. It has a synthetic stock right now that is functional but ugly.

Thanks

Brad

..............Kevlar!

who is rmf?

and what the F*&% does color got to do with strength?

It does not "need" to be quarter-sawn.

As for the flow through the wrist, yes.....but that has nothing to do with the fact that your gun is going to kick anymore than another gun.

I have read and heard statements like that before. If your gun breaks in the wrist because of recoil....you should sue the stockmaker...He does not know how to bed a gun.

What species of walnut? Certainly any of the Turkish/English walnut will be MORE than adequate. Even the poorest example from that species will handle the recoil from any shoulder fired weapon.

Kevlar....Looks like Walnut, feels like Walnut, works like Walnut, tastes like chicken.

Well, take this as a PSA, not picking a fight. I do believe I've stocked a few huge kicking rifles, and might, just might, have a clue as to what I am talking about

Guntoter, feel free to blast away, I won't answer you again on this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Gun toter:
who is rmf?

richards microfit, as most of us know, and since the question was starting at that point, perhaps being on topic isn't a bad idea that is, if you don't know, don't answer?

quote:

and what the F*&% does color got to do with strength?

you might re-read what I said... it has everything to do with taste, nothing to do with recoil.

quote:

It does not "need" to be quarter-sawn.

are you proposing a slab sawn piece for a big bore? or random sawn? Yes, it needs to be quartersawn with proper grain layout ...

quote:

As for the flow through the wrist, yes.....but that has nothing to do with the fact that your gun is going to kick anymore than another gun.

I disagree...ever seen a double rifle with weak grain throught the wrist? a 30-06 can have just about any grain pattern through the wrist, a 500 jeffe REQUIRES a well laid out stock, as you point out below, and refusing this advice invites disaster.

quote:

I have read and heard statements like that before.

from guys that build big bores all the time, or just from idle speculation?

quote:

If your gun breaks in the wrist because of recoil....you should sue the stockmaker...He does not know how to bed a gun.

you supplied the blank, not meeting the barest of stipulations for suitiability, and you think you can sue over it? Myself, I would point you to another stock maker, I would pass on your custom

quote:

What species of walnut? Certainly any of the Turkish/English walnut will be MORE than adequate.

incorrect .. a piece of english from a wet warm area in california is NOT comparable to a piece of harsh environment english

quote:

Even the poorest example from that species will handle the recoil from any shoulder fired weapon.

no, this is a complete mis-statement[QUOTE]

It takes more than bedding to keep a stock together. I'd say Turkish walnut first, bastogne can be spongy so I'd avoid it unless I could check the density of the blank first.

Dressles has some pretty reasonably priced plain turkish blanks with good grain flow through the wrist that would be appropriate for a thumper stock. Often times the fancy blanks have less than ideal grain flow, and I'd rather have a rather plain blank that holds together than a fancy one that splinters.

It's not foot pounds of energy that breaks stocks, it is recoil energy. I wouldn't worry about a 30 cal that generated 5500 fpe at the muzzle, but if you're pusing 400 gr or more of lead 2200 fps or more, you best be concerned about the stock staying together.

Jeff,
Please!

RMF...yes i thought thats who you were talking about, i wanted to make sure before i said anything...you get what you pay for at "RMF". Good luck!

As for color...i am sure the guy has his own tastes.

AND YES, slab sawn is more than adequate if it is good quality wood. I have a H&H 500/465 with wood from H&H, it is slab sawn.

When people say things like what you did...about quartersawn, it misleads people into thinking that is the only choice for a responsible builder to use. Truth is most people do NOT know what true quartersawn is.
Do you see straight lines on the side and presume it is quartersawn?
Most people do not know where to look on the blank to even ascertain whether it is QS or SS. Guess what? It is not the sides.

Please Jeff, tell me what constitutes quartersawn?

As for recoil breaking the stock, again only if it is inletted poorly. Further, this guy was asking about a bolt gun, not a DR. And as i said, a stock (on a bolt gun) that cracks was inletted poorly. Period.
And it should never crack in the wrist...unless it is dropped,...not from recoil!
Don't site the DR analogy you gave me...there are a TON of English double rifles out there on slabsawn blanks. Many of those guns are over a century old. So please, spread it with a grain of salt.

I am not the sort of person that likes to argue, but man if i seen someone telling people to wear blind folds before crossing the street, i would say something.

Lastly, California...? While i will agree that wood that comes from areas that are devoid of good growing conditions...for produce....well those areas produce the finest lumber. But that includes California. All of it.
I think what you meant to say was orchards...which is still slightly misleading. You see those orchards are watered regularly. 95% of the California-English walnut currently on guns came from orchards. It is great wood regardless.
So is most all of the stuff from overseas, ie. Turkey and surrounding areas. It gets what water mother nature allows which is very little in those regions.
Point is, most of that species is GREAT for gunstocks.

No mater how it is cut.

1. Best quality Turkish walnut.
2. English walnut

Thanks for all the input. The rifle is a 9.3mm RUM which is a liitle under the Big-Bore form but at 5500 fpe it does have quite a bit of recoil energy (250grn bullet at 3100 FPS or 286 grn at 2900 FPS) I am ok with an HS syn stock but I'd like something in wood. I am leaning towards an English walnut with minimal figuring. What I really wanted to know is where to start. RMF looks OK I might also consider Elk Ridge for a blank.

Thanks

Brad

If I really wanted to stock a 5500ft-lb rifle in wood I'd laminate either black or Bastogne walnut being choosy about the grain and density used.

The really nice thing about laminates is that if you have some fancy grain, you can put it where you want it and keep the wrist section straight grained.

The stock would have two crossbolts and a generous amount of Brownell's glass bedding!

I have nothing at all against english walnut or turkish either......It's just that I already have the other in furniture grade boards and can laminate them fairly easily!

quote:

Originally posted by Gun toter:
Point is, most of that species is GREAT for gunstocks.

No mater how it is cut.

A stock blank of the finest thin shelled walnut that was cut wrong is a tomato stake or knife handles. A fine blank must have 3 properties. Layout, density, color.

Bill:

What would you recomend that I do if I just want a nice wood stock for my 700? I'd like to keep it fairly simple since It's a wildcat round in a user hunting rifle and I will most likely build a 2nd rifle with a nicer mauser action once I get this one perfected as far as loads, weight... What I really want is a stock that I can esentially bolt on and apply a reasonably simple finish to. Any advice would be great I could go with a off the shelf laminate if you think that the English walnut would be too much trouble.

Thanks

Brad

You have been lead astray. The best blank is a free blank, all else equal.

I have English, black and claro walnut stocks on my big bore rifles. All work fine.

It's best to use a blank with close or dense grain structure, and with good flow through the wrist, and properly cut and selected English blanks typically have that in spades, and one generally can't go wrong with them.

But black and Claro can work just as well if the blanks are selected properly.

Brad,

As much as I dislike laminate stocks I would have to point you in that direction considering what you are looking for. A laminate with over size inletting (you will need to glass it) would be the least amount of work.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Soverns:

quote:

Originally posted by Gun toter:
Point is, most of that species is GREAT for gunstocks. No mater how it is cut.

A stock blank of the finest thin shelled walnut that was cut wrong is a tomato stake or knife handles. A fine blank must have 3 properties. Layout, density, color.

I'd have to agree with Bill here. First and foremost it does matter how it is cut. What happens when the customer takes his new big bore to the range and throws a few tons of lead in the old lead sled? Think the world's best inletting + glass is gonna hold a stock together that's got lay out from HELL through the wrist? Ever had a horse fall on a stock? I have. My stock held together.

All said and done It's not worth my time to work on a blank that has the least bit questionable layout. It takes a lot of work to produce a fine rifle stock. Why would ANYONE waste it on a blank that might break. Not just from shooting but also from possible rough handling in the field.

I think after selecting ONLY English walnut for the BIG BORE stock blank the most important qualities in order of importance are as follows:

LAYOUT
LAYOUT
LAYOUT
LAYOUT
LAYOUT
LAYOUT
LAYOUT
LAYOUT
LAYOUT
LAYOUT
LAYOUT
LAYOUT
COLOR
PRICE

The density thing should always match the caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad aka Pill Shooter:
Bill:

Any advice would be great I could go with a off the shelf laminate if you think that the English walnut would be too much trouble.

Thanks

Brad

Brad
English Walnut is much less trouble to a qualified stockmaker like Bill than a piece of laminate. Like Bill said, If you're looking at assembling your rifle with limited stockmaking experience, an over inlet laminate that you could fill with glass and shoot tomorrow might be up your alley. If you're looking to pay someone to BUILD (not assemble) you a custom stock/rifle then English Walnut would be a better choice.

Gunamaker,

Ever attempt to make anything from Osage? Been looking for a large and straight enough piece to make a stock.

Macifej

Haven't seen a gunstock from hedge, but have built enough fence with hedge posts to know you'll have a hell of a time finding a straight piece and it's so hard the gunsmith would hate you. You can't hardly drill a hole or drive a nail in it, I'd hate to think about inletting it.

I've only worked English walnut, claro, black, bastogne, and laminate into complete stocks. I've duplicated some myrtle, maple and birch. Never tried any osage. I don't really have any interest left in stocking anything but English for bolt guns. Some of the other varieties of wood can look stunning when finished, IMHO they just don't belong on a purely classic style best quality bolt rifle. Look at the 75-100 year old rifles we all appreciate today. In 100 years from now I think the English walnut classic styled stock will still be the norm for best quality rifle work. If gunmakers are still building great rifles they'll still be using English. I'd like to try working some cherry. I hear it's good wood for carving, but I'll probably just use it for some pattern work.

I'm not trying to offend anyone here about their choice in wood, just trying to look into my "crystal ball" and place my bet on what will hold it's value for many many years to come.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad aka Pill Shooter:
Thanks for all the input. The rifle is a 9.3mm RUM which is a liitle under the Big-Bore form but at 5500 fpe it does have quite a bit of recoil energy (250grn bullet at 3100 FPS or 286 grn at 2900 FPS) I am ok with an HS syn stock but I'd like something in wood. I am leaning towards an English walnut with minimal figuring. What I really wanted to know is where to start. RMF looks OK I might also consider Elk Ridge for a blank.

Thanks

Brad

IF your rifle weighs 8.5 pounds, and you are using 90 grains of powder to get your 2900 FPS MV with that 286 grain bullet, your recoil energy will be around 58 foot-pounds.

All added weight will cut that figure down. I have a load for my 7.5-pound Ruger No. 1 in .45/70 that develops about the same recoil as theat 9.3 is going to have. It really isn't thast much. A 10-pound .416 Rigby has 10 foot-pounds more than that when launching a 400 grain bullet at 2400 FPS.....

JStevens,

Factual stuff. I use a 5 Axis CNC for most everything that can't go on a Swiss Screw. So - the 20,000 pound machine can hate me all it want's. I think I will try it out.

Brad,

were you the "so-and-so" that outbid me a couple months ago on Ebay for those forming dies but not the reloading dies and then laid a guilt trip about one of us should bail out so the other could have both sets? You promised to send me a dummy loaded round...if that was you.


Rich
DRSS

I would seriously consider a stock from "Accurate Innovations".

You can get the wood, feel, weight, but due to the inletted bedding block (similar to the HS precision concept) you get the performance benefits of a composite stock as well



JW

Boys, If you have a really big boomer, think about a laminate stock. I had CZ put my .500 Jeffery in a their brown laminate stock. I think it looks good (albiet not as good as a nice piece of walnut) and it is hell for stout. I doubt that I could ever break it.

Dave

laminates will and do break.
even across the grain!!! yikes!



i think i would still stick with a good piece of english/turkish walnut that was tight grained and dense. flat or quartersawn.

Why does Weatherby offer Claro on the 460 from the custom shop??? I always thought Claro was softer than English or Turkish.

Because they cut it down behind their shop!

Local stuff and they probably have a source!

Hypothesizing here.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Brad,

were you the "so-and-so" that outbid me a couple months ago on Ebay for those forming dies but not the reloading dies and then laid a guilt trip about one of us should bail out so the other could have both sets? You promised to send me a dummy loaded round...if that was you.


Rich
DRSS

Rich:
Wasn't me my Ebay name is WB7TSO so I'm not sure who out bid you. What kind of case forming dies did you bid on?

Thanks

Brad

Two points: I could be wrong here as I'm not really a Weatherby guy but I looked for cross bolts in their 'big guns' and saw none. Is this true and if so what are they doing with their stocks to keep them from cracking in addition to great accurate inletting?

For the wood experts: take a look at this slab of Claro and tell me what grade you think it is.
I've visited several places and don't find anything that's comparable. Maybe my eyes are warping. I had it for sale but decided not to sell it till I find out more.

Nope! No cross bolts in MY .460 from the Custom Shop. FYI - all .460's come from the Custom Shop. Not sure why anyone needs cross bolts in a properly designed rifle. Sure they look retro-cool but why else?

Nice Wood - Let me know when you decide to sell it.

I think the reason for the use of cross bolts may be because guys are put off by heavy rifles. So the lighter stocks are a marketing deal....give the customer what they want.

What's your 460 weigh? I find the heavier rifles much more pleasant to shoot. Yea, not to carry in the mountains of Idaho but that's what horses are for.

WRT the stock....I've seen Exhibition Claro on the internet and it's nothing as good as the grain in this stock. Personal taste but I was looking for a non subjective opinion.

10.5 lbs for the rifle plus scope, rings, and three rounds. About 12.5 lbs all up weight.

If you really examine the geometry of wood stock design you'll discover that cross bolts are useless and actually contribute to the demise of a light wood stock.

Like I said before though they look "cool".

The equation is really very simple. Surface area equals strength. Here it is [Pi(D)H]/2 x (4) where D = O.D. of cross bolt sleeve contacting wood.

Compare this to recoil lug or other bedding area and see why modern rifles use no cross bolts. Additionally, cross bolt holes are traditionally bored through the absolute weakest area of the stock material.

Still - they look - especially with those pot belly'd stocks around the drop boxes.

Digressing a little,

My family has been in the "Wood" business in this country for over 160 years and I have accumulated a little bit of knowledge of tree parts. Unfortunately none of it has to do with cosmetic grading and everything to do with standardized grading of hardwood lumber for up scale millwork.

Claro can be soft. Or it can be very close grained or "dense" - nearly as dense as English. It's harder to go wrong with English though.

idahochukar2 - That's a beautiful stick of Claro. Nearly as nice as the one on my favorite .375. It is very hard to tell density from a blank, though, except by close examination of the edges and by its weight.