For several years I have been talking with John Lewis at Carolina Precision about making a small production run of accurate #1's. Today we didcussed making a run of 20-40 guns in either 404 or 470. I have a contact with Ruger that will sell actions & stocks which would require Federal Exise tax. The customer could either provide his stock & action or we could provide them. The price of a coplete gun would be in the $2,500-3000 range. If I get enough interest here I'll spec out the gun and figure an escrowed deposit plan . yes, it will have iron sites , a barrel band sling and the best wood we can buy from Ruger. Please post your interest.

quote:

Originally posted by tom ga hunter:
For several years I have been talking with John Lewis at Carolina Precision about making a small production run of accurate #1's. Today we didcussed making a run of 20-40 guns in either 404 or 470. I have a contact with Ruger that will sell actions & stocks which would require Federal Exise tax. The customer could either provide his stock & action or we could provide them. The price of a coplete gun would be in the $2,500-3000 range. If I get enough interest here I'll spec out the gun and figure an escrowed deposit plan . yes, it will have iron sites , a barrel band sling and the best wood we can buy from Ruger. Please post your interest.

If you make a small run of both chamberings, and they can come in at the $2500 or close to that, I'll buy one of each chambering!

Here's Jonh's web site, he has been written up for #1 in the usual gun rags.

http://www.cprifles.com/

thats a little steep insnt it....... you can buy a brand new number 1 for 800-900$ a barrel cambered for 470 for 300$ and have smith strap it on for 250-300

800
300
250-300

1350-1400$ even 1600 max.......ssk industries makes these gunst at this price.were talking a 1000$ difference.

unless theres a little engraving envalved i just cant see it.

My guess may be a bit high but we were planning on using 1st class sites, new springs & a good trigger. John's web page has $875.00 to rebarrel & accurize for a normal calaber.I assumed $650.00 for the action & 1st class wood.If there is enough interest, I'll get serious about a price. I went to the SSK web site & they had no pricing information.

I would be interested if the price gets a little better

quote:

Originally posted by tom ga hunter:
My guess may be a bit high but we were planning on using 1st class sites, new springs & a good trigger. John's web page has $875.00 to rebarrel & accurize for a normal calaber.I assumed $650.00 for the action & 1st class wood.If there is enough interest, I'll get serious about a price. I went to the SSK web site & they had no pricing information.

GA hunter I talked to SSK 5 yrs ago and they told me they would rebarrel "MY" No1 to 470NE for $1900 US then! I really don't think the $3000 price will sell a lot of single shotsunless they have exceptional wood, and are really finished like a true custom. Not that your work isn't worth that, it is simply I don't think most who want 470NE rifles on a No1 action simply want an unusual big bore rifle, and a cost much lower that any double rifle. I think you will sell out the first run at $2500, pritty easily. Some are going the want to wait back to see how the first one turn out. After the first couple hit the internet, my guess is it will pick up. My suggestion is go ahead and build one for yourself, and post some really good pictures, of the rifle and targets on all the firums where bigbore guys hang out!

This is not really a business venture, just a lark. My current biggest gun is a 338 win mag. If enough people are interested, I'll build a prototype at your suggestion..Does any in the Georgia,S.C. area have any experience with the 404 which interest me more than the 470.

I just went to his web-site, and was astounded to see he reccomends a Remington 700 action as a start to build a (HIS WORDS)"TRUE DANGEROUS GAME RIFLE!" Things that make you go HUMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmm!

Same topic, different gun, eh Mac?

I think a 470 is a mistake. The 450 3 1/4 would be better as it is the traditional single shot in this caliber range.

You might get a few nostalgia freaks that wouldn't take a second glance at a 470.

For most of the Nitro Express cartridges, it is not just a rebarrel. The "trough" behind the falling block has to opened up to accomodate the bigger rims. I looked at doing a 450/400 rechamber of a 405 Win and then decided against it when I figured out how much work it was going to be. So that's a big part of the cost.

On the other hand, Gary Reeder will build you one on your gun for $1695 (evidently on sale).
http://www.reedercustomguns.com/custom_guns/beast.htm

I like the .450 3 1/4" idea ...... however, I'd also be in for a .470.

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:
I think a 470 is a mistake. The 450 3 1/4 would be better as it is the traditional single shot in this caliber range.

500 gr at 2150 .. and the 470 is the best selling double caliber on new guns...

go figure

jeffe

Jeffe

You have a point?

Actually the 9.3x74 is far and away the most popular Double Rifle Caliber being made today, not the 470.

I'm not sure what that has to do with what was made in the past though.

Mickey,
thanks for asking, i do have a point. The 450 is the elder round, certainly, but the 470 has the market share. Facts below to follow that stipulation up.

The 470 NE claims a premium in the resale market over the 450s, might partially be due to boddington's book, but who knows.

Let's review the current offerings for double rifles, as I would expect that the maker know far more about market demands than either of us

(i went to each of these folks sites and/or online catalog)

Searcy - No standard chambering are offered in 9,3x74 nor 450 NE#2, but every action is in 470NE

Merkel (probably the walmart brand of modern doubles) , offers the 9,3x74 in it's smaller framed rifles... does not list the 450 at all, and it's best seller, in heavies is the 470


chapuis doesn't offer the 450 as a standard chambering, at all.

john rigby and co do not offer the 450 as a standard chambering

in fact even HH doeosn't have one for sale as a new gun, even for the miserly sum of 210,000$!!!!

kreighoff also offered the 470, but not the 450 NE (any flavor)

Heym offers the 450 in a single model,and is the only maker to list that as a standard caliber, and the 470 in 3 models.

I would supposed this brief market survey indicates the tastes of the public, and a rief overview of what's being sold., and, well, all these makers carry the 470 NE without exception, and only 1 does the 450 NE as a standard offering.

I would suggest that the 470 ranks higher in sales than the 450, and, well, perhaps even the 9,3x74 IN NEW GUNS.

jeffe

Did anyone mention that Ruger will be chambering their Tropical #1 in 400 Jeffery (450/400 3 inch)?
That will be nice!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Searcy - No standard chambering are offered in 9,3x74 nor 450 NE#2, but every action is in 470NE

Searcy also offers a .450 NE as well in case you missed that one when researching on the net.

***

I think a Ruger in .450/400 would be quite nice.

Rusty, I also hope Ruger makes their #1 in 450/400. I'd buy one in a heartbeat. Still thinking of building a 404 J.

John,
I reviewed Butch's site.. it is not a "standard" chambering listed for any of his line, though neither is the 600, 700, or 4 bore, but they are available.. .but not enough demand(?) to list as standard.

and yep 450/400 or 500/416 would be awesome!

jeffe

Wouldn't a 450 3 1/4" simply be a rechambered 45/70?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Wouldn't a 450 3 1/4" simply be a rechambered 45/70?

465H&H

Welllllllllllllll, I guess you could call a 450NE 3 1/4" a re-chambered 45-70 if you want, but there is an large difference between the two chamberings. This is not only in size, but a world of difference in power! Addtionally I don't think I'd like shooting a Ruger No1 45-70 rifle that had been re-chambered to 450NE 3 1/4", talk about kicking your butt!!!!!!!

The little 45-70 case is only 2.25" long, with a rim dia of .605", and a head size of .505", and a capacity of 80.71 grs of water
,and is lucky to get 1700 fps with a 405 gr bullet, developing 2550 fpe at muzzle.

While the 450NE 3 1/4" has a case is 3.25" long with a rim dia of .626", and a head dia of .548", and a capacity of 136.04 grs of water, and will easily get 2150 fps, and still maintain low pressure, with a 480 gr bullet, for 4930 fpe at muzzle.

The only thing that compares between the 450NE, and the 45-70 is both have a bullet diameter of .458, nothing more!

The 450NE 3 1/4" will do anything the 470 will, and there is no practical difference between them. If the .458 dia had not been outlawed in 1908 in India, and the Sudan, the 470NE wouldn't have ever been marketed at all. The 45-70 compared to either of these two is like comparing a 45 acp to a 458 win mag.

The cartridges that are simply re-chambered (actually chamber lengthened) are the 45-90, 45-100, 45-120, which are simply long 45-70s, but none of them will compare favorably with the 450NE 3 1/4".

In the case of this string, the 450NE3 1/4" would be the easist conversion on a Ruger No1, but the 470NE will sell far better. IMO, the 450NE 3 1/4" is a better cartridge than the 470NE, and is the cartridge that set the standard for dangerous game when NITRO powders were first brought out!

Mac

I'm well aware of all that you have said. My point was (although apparently not clear enough) that you could simply purchase a 45/70 barreled No1 action as was discussed above and rechamber along with a little work on the feed ramp and extractor. That will be needed in any case with any of the cartridges under consideration. It would save the cost of a new more expensive barrel. A different stock would be needed in either case. I am not sure if the barrel twist rate for a 45/70 would be suitable for a 450 Nitro though.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
The 450NE 3 1/4" will do anything the 470 will, and there is no practical difference between them. If the .458 dia had not been outlawed in 1908 in India, and the Sudan, the 470NE wouldn't have ever been marketed at all.

I wish I could have said this that well!!
or, like I said, 500gr at 2150.. !!!

jeffe

Since you can get factory Rigbys and Lotts I think the 470 would make the most sence. I used to have a 460 WBY in a #1 and currently have a Rigby. These things aren't the best for recoil although they are very cool.

I've looked into this before. You cannot really convert No. 1's in 45-70 to 450 NE because the twist on 45-70's (1 in 20) will not handle the 500 grain 45 caliber bullets. However, a 458 No. 1 can be rechambered. Action work will most likely be required in either case as the NE rims are larger than the 45-70 or 458.

Another choice for the 45 caliber crowd who love those long rounds is the 450 KNR from Gary Reeder (470 Nitro necked to 45 caliber).

I wrote to Ruger a few years back about producing the No. 1 in 470 Nitro. They replied they had no plans to do so. Perhaps they haven't figured out that there are better recoil pads out there than the ones they put on their No. 1's.

i have a custom ruger nr 1 in 450 ne 3 1/4 inch and its a fine rifle. it can be hot loaded nearly too 460 wby and i load it to 2350 fps with a 480 or 500 grs bullet. It was rechambered from 458 win mag, ands it has a Fajen Black walnut stock which is very good and sturdy for that kind of combination.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Mac

I'm well aware of all that you have said. My point was (although apparently not clear enough) that you could simply purchase a 45/70 barreled No1 action as was discussed above and rechamber along with a little work on the feed ramp and extractor. That will be needed in any case with any of the cartridges under consideration. It would save the cost of a new more expensive barrel. A different stock would be needed in either case. I am not sure if the barrel twist rate for a 45/70 would be suitable for a 450 Nitro though.

465H&H

That is not the point at all. The 45-70 Ruger No1 is far to light to be chambered to 450NE! I have a 45-70 Ruger No1, that have been re-chambered to 458RCBS, and it is a bear to shoot, being that light. The 45-70, 45-90, 45-100, 45-120, and the 458 RCBS all have the same case, the only difference being length. This doesn't require any work on the extractor on a re-cahmber. However the rifle that started life as a 45-70 No1 is too light.

The Ruger No1 tropical chambered for 458 Win Mag makes far more sense to re-chamber to 450NE 3 1/4". The cartridge case of the 450NE is large enough (considerably larger dia/length than a 45-70 case)to clean out the old chamber of the 458 Win Mag, and the rifle is far better weighted for such rounds. The twist would be fine either way! It would most likely require the removal of some steel in the feed trough,and top of the block, and on the safety button nose, as well.

The 45-70 action and barrel would work if you don't mind getting the hell kicked out of you for no good reason.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
...if you don't mind getting the hell kicked out of you for no good reason.

<sheepishly raising my hand>

count me in

this one was 458 tropical before it was chambered too 450 nitro, it weighs ca 8.5 pounds.

If one insists upon more power than the 458Lott, it is a simple and relatively inexpensive matter to ream the chamber and alter the extractor of a Lott or Win to 450NE or 450#2. I considered rechambering my 458Win to 450#2 but opted for the Lott after deciding it was the most expedient conversion and offers all the power I care to handle. The Lott case also handles reduced charges better than the larger cases.