Hi guys,

I have been fascinated with the 416 Rigby with its lovely taper and sharp shoulder. I would like to create a 50-caliber wildcat using these concepts. Here is a first draft of my 50-caliber wildcat based on the 505 Gibbs case. I named it 500 Ninja for now. I need to play around with the OAL as my goal is to reach 2400 fps with 600-grain projectile at around 55,000 psi. I don't like a very long case so it will probably be anywhere from 2.75 in to 2.85 in. I need to do some calculations to determine what case capacity I need to accomplish this goal. I know that there is already a wildcat base on the 505 and then there is a 500 AHR but I want this one to be unique just like the lengendary 416 Rigby. Any feedback will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Ming

Ming,
Looks good to me except for the short neck. The 416 Rigby neck is 0.500" long for the .416 bullet.

I believe the shoulder of .025" per side with the abrupt Rigby angle of 45 degrees per side should be adeguate. If you blew it out to 0.030" per side at the shoulder (just 0.005" more) it would be more than adequate.

Why not make the neck 0.500" long to reflect the original Rigby neck length, as well as the angle?
That would be very close to one bullet diameter for the 500 Ninja, 0.510". Don't leave a fly in the ointment for someone to criticize a short neck, like me, eh?

500 NINJA = 500 No Improvement Needed, Ja?

Not to be critical, but is that enough of a shoulder? I like the idea, but would not want a headspace issue.

Ming-I checked my collection of cartridge dimensions and even the 585 NYATI has about .045 shoulder. I'd agree with 500 grains that there may not be enough shoulder headspace on. I checked and the minimum reliable should seems to be about .040.-Rob

Robgunbuilder, the 585 Nyati does not have a 0.045" per side shoulder! It has a 0.0225" shoulder. I thought you have bult many of these 585 Nyati rifles. The shoulder of a Nyati is 0.65" the neck is 0.605". These are the "standard" dimension such as they are.

For an "expert" big bore rifle builder your lack of knowledge about these big guns is unnerving!

Axel

Thanks guys for the good input so far. The small neck seems to be the most concern for this wildcat design. My original intend was to have a minimum required neck just to gain a sexy body taper but also wanted a very positive head-spacing cartridge at the same time. It is good to know exactly how much neck is needed for positive head spacing and the only way to find out is to actually testing it. This can be time consuming and costly unless there is a simple testing method.

DaggaRon,
I like your humor as I got a good laugh out of it reading your last sentence. Anyway, I am taking your advice to consider lengthening the neck. I just got some 510 cal. Barnes 600-grain solids today and was surprised when I measured them. The length from the crimp groove to the base of the projectile is roughly .750 in. My question is how can this projectile be loaded in the 500 A-Square with the crimp groove at the case mouth? The neck length of the 500 A-Square is around .400 in so this means the base of this Barnes solid would protrude well pass the neck. I wonder what was the length (from crimp groove to the base) of those A-Square Monolithic solids. Oh well I will have to look into this a little more.

Rob,
Thanks for the input about the small neck. I will probably add a little more just to be safe but not as much as you have suggested. The 45 degree angle on this wildcat is much more positive than the smaller angle of most other big bores. By the way, the neck thickness per side for the 500 Jeffery is around .033 in while the one for the 505 Gibbs is around .031 in and these two big cartridges do not have a 45-degree angle shoulder. Anyway, I need to go back to the drawing board for more work. By the way, I sent you an email yesterday using your email address from your AR profile.

Can anybody tell me the base length of other currently available 510 caliber projectiles in the 570-grain or 600-grain weight class? Any info will be greatly appreciated. Later guys!

Cheers!
Ming

Ming,

Dimensions for the 570 Woodleigh:

OAL - 1.260" (this will vary bullet to bullet)

Base to beginning of cannellure groove - 0.460"

Cannellure groove width - .062"

I measured one bullet only. If you want a more statistically significant sample I do have 7 or 8 loose bullets.

Jeffe,
The Nyati may be flawed but there is no way that you can ever have a 0.05" shoulder per side with a Nyati. The base diameter of the Nyati brass is 0.66" the neck diameter is 0.605". That leaves a maximum shoulder width of 0.0275". This is assuming NO body taper in the case. Personally I question this Rob guy anyway. He makes unsubstantiated statements about actions strengths on another thread and when I question that he explodes. He seems to own every single big bore rifle over 40 caliber. Specifically he has:
416 Rigby - Ruger
458 Lott _ not too sure about this one
470 NE - Searcy Double
470 Capstick - home made in the last year
500 A Square - home made in the last year
500 AHR - purchased from AHR ($3500 no frills)
505 Gibbs - (Searcy components ($4000 barrel & action alone home made in the last year)
50 BMG (several of these it sounds like)
585 Nyati - home made in the last year

I am sorry, but when I start hearing stories like this credibility begins to become an issue. I mean this guy has two things going on here if he actually what he says he is.
1.) Lots of time on his hands
2.) Lots of money burning holes in his pockets
These two items seldom cohabitate. Therefore I am forced to believe that he has very recently won the lottery! This I find aweful difficult to swallow.

Besides all that he continually screws up on basic gunsmithing basics and case dimensions. He isn't too aweful smart when it comes to guns.

I apologize to everyone for my statements as I am sure they are not necessary, but this guy attacked me for questioning is incorrect statements and that has made me mad.

Thanks I feel better now that I have vented.

Axel

Thanks Axel for the bullet base dimension of the 570-grain Woodleigh. I think a .500 in neck length suggested by DaggaRon is becoming to make sense. By the way, I would like to have all the case dimensions of the 585 Nyati if you have them or know where can I find them?

Cheers!
Ming

Ming,

Which 585 Nyati would you like. This cartridge has never been standardized. The diameters at base, shoulder and neck are all about the same, but the axial positions and maximum length vary.

I can give you what I have though.

Rim diameter: .64"
Rim thickness: 0.062"
Base diameter: 0.66"
Shoulder diameter: 0.65"
Neck diameter: 0.605"
Bullet diameter: 0.585"
Case length: 2.85"
Shoulder angle: 20 degrees
Shoulder axial position: 2.15"

Hope this helps.

Axel

Thanks Axel again for the 585 dimensions. I will have it modeled up to put in into my database. Cheers! Ming

Ming,

I my be able to assist you in your efforts to determine if you can get a 600 gr pill to 2400 fps out of this wildcat concept of yours. Do you know what the case capacity is yet? Just guessing but I am figuring around 160 gr.

Axel

Axel,
Time is what you make of it, and when you are a gunsmith and machinist, you have many, or have had even more.

Myself, I've got many "homebuilt" (like that phrase... a guy has a machine shop (like rob AND me) in their shops, and he get's called "homebuilt") And have worked through many issues with regards to what's SAID and what hsa to be done.

Again, i appreciate you here, but rob has proven, to ME anyway, that he knows which end to put the bullets in, and when it's a bad idea. I've had a couple exchanges with him when i did NOT agree with him, but that's usually in matters of opinion, rather than fact.

oh well, I could go on and on, and amuse no one but myself, so I'll stop.

Hey, you don't happen to be Todd, do you?
jeffe

Jeffe,

Who is Todd? I am new to this site, but have done some searching in the site archives and was impressed by some of the members knowledge. Robgunbulder is not one of the impressive one in my opinion. So I thought I would participate as well in some of these discussion. If I am not welcome I will most certainly leave and not come back. After all this is simply a chat room. As I said I got somewhat upset when he attacked me for asking him to explain his comment on action strength. He is wrong and I think he knows it.

For the record I do not think that I would have used a M700 for a big Weatherby cartirdge either. The difference is I would have stated just as I did here, instead of making up a bogus strength claim.

His profile says he is a scientists so I assume he works for a living. I have two lathes, a vertical mill, two welders, table saw, two band saws, drill press, alot of hand tools, planer, router/shaper, and a day job. I find it very difficult to play with my tool collection. Two reasons:
1.) Cost money to feed the tools.
2.) More prohibitive than #1, it takes TIME.

Axel

[ 09-21-2002, 20:23: Message edited by: Axel ]

Axel,

Thanks for the offer and I will let you know if I need anything. I cannot calculate the case capacity yet as I don't know what are some of the actual internal wall thicknesses of the 505 Gibbs case. I got the whole thing modeled including the internal web structure but it was just an approximation. I need to get a 505 case and section it and measure the inside in order to generate a more accurate model. Thanks. Ming

Axel,
I think you are right about the Nyati shoulder. Heck we all get discombobbulated now and then, and RGB has just made a math error.

Ming,
Minimum shoulders again! The 500 No Improvement Needed, Ja, (500 Ninja) ought to be irreproachable on any ground when you finalize it, ja?

A minimum shoulder of sorts is the belt on the H&H case, 0.010" and 90 degrees per side. This is proven irreproachable for headspacing, ja?

I think you have a good point about the 45 degree angle making a diminutive shoulder more effective.

I would propose as a rule of thumb a progression of shoulder stepdown minimums for various angles as follows, for real shoulders instead of the belt where * is used for degree of angle:

90*/0.010"
45*/0.020"
30*/0.030"
20*/0.045"
15*/0.060"
10*/0.090"

The shoulder step and shoulder angle are inversely proportional.

So, by my rule of thumb, your current shoulder is adequate. Of course this is just my 2 cents worth for free.

A 500 NINJA with a 45* shoulder and 0.030" stepdown per side with a 0.510" neck length would have no flies on it at all.

DaggaRon,

It's always good to have your input. I have been whacking my brain this weekend on the drawing board to get this thing going. I cannot make up my mind about the cartridge length. I do not want an oversize cartridge like the 505 but I hate to make it too short so it does not look as inpressive as other big bores. Anyway, I hope to get this thing going soon. Stay tuned!

Thanks!
Ming

Axel,
You seriously need to calm down. Rob is one of the most knowledgeable people to grace this sight and you're blasting him for sharing his wealth of knowledge with the firearms community. To err is human and we all make the occasional mistake.

[ 09-23-2002, 08:58: Message edited by: CZ 550 ]

Axel- Generally, I only argue concepts with people and don't attack them personally. This is a free website and anyone here can argue with anyone they choose. I enjoy this opportunity and have learned a great deal in the process! You seem to think that I have attacked you when all I've done is try to educate you. However, now, for you, I'm going to make an exception! You are PATHETIC and I'm sorry for you!. It must be hard to know in your heart that you are such a loser. Your speculations about me are a endless source of laughter. Are you so Pathetic that you Really think I care? My abilities are proven by what I have done . You on the other hand have proven nothing! You think I have attacked you, when all I've done is correct your deeply flawed thinking. Yes I have built 585 Nyati's and yes they work. Have you? I doubt it! Frankly, I doubt that you have ever done anything other than put your calipers to some basic off the shelf guns and tried to measure them. You claim to have two lathes, but argue the accuracy of three jaw chucks ( give me a break), with knowledgeable gunsmiths like John Ricks and Dan Lilja for example( Do you think you know more than they do?. You make statements about the chemistry of Bore cleaners with absolutely no understanding of how they work( just like Todd E did which makes me very suspicuious) and which don't even make sense. You have proven you know nothing about machining, basic chemistry and guns ( Oh yes, your 460 WBY- M700 diatribe was really telling-Your understanding of the components of an actions strength tell us a great deal). By the way I would really like to see you build one and prove me wrong. You won't will you? What's wrong , taking a perfectly useful gun and turning into a bolt action single shot that will likely blow up whould definately convince us that you know what your doing. Your understanding of guns and basic mechanics shows your ignorance and lack of education.
For your education-The diameter of the 585 NYATI is .6548 at the shoulder and .609 at the neck ( that was Seyfrieds dimensions). That distance which represents the total shoulder is thus .046, dumbass. That's what you headspace on shithead, not .023. I wasn't talking about each side. If you have done anything, then POST some pictures and prove it! Till then I will continue to believe your full of BS. Sir- you are a PATHETIC JOKE of a man and you know it!
I suspect you are none other than Todd E having another mental meltdown. Try a Prozac suppository! Better yet some Valium and Prozac both as suppositories so that they will reach your brain faster ( the distance is shorter that way ( can you use a caliper to measure it?).
You are Dismissed!-Rob

[ 09-23-2002, 23:11: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ]

Ming,
I think you should shoot for 160 grains of water, as in the Jeffrey. You'll have the looks you want, the case capacity required and any neck length you want.

Right on Rob

Go get em' Rob!!!!!!!!!!!!

ROTFLMAO!

Robgunbuilder,

I was NEVER that mad at you. I seem to have struck a nerve. Now what is the matter, can dish it out, but can't take it. Again I say grow up and be a man. Machining of threads and reaming holes ain't rocket science BOY! I happen to work with several machine shops which hold tolerances routinely measured in microns. We use CMM not mikes and calipers MORON! None and I repeat none of these machine shops use 4 jaw chucks. They are not robust chucking systems...period!

Again grow up. I was screwing barrels into guns years ago. If you cannot figure out how to calculate action stresses don't yell at me. Go educate yourself. I am not the one cryin' like a baby because somebody told me I was wrong, you are! Your ignorance of corrosion is pretty extensive also, but I am not going to try and educate a know nothin' like you...it would be pointless since you know everything already.

Ming, I think Nickudu has provided some excellent advice with regard to case capacity on your new cartridge.

Axel

Edit---Robgunbuilder am I correct to assume you believe I am this ToddE guy because he was prone to his "calculations" in posts. I assure you my name is Axel Dempel not ToddE! I am a mechanical engineer. I work in "Detroit" so I bet you can figure out what I work on. I learned long ago that talk is cheap. You sir, talk. I have done a considerable amount of searching on this site and do not recall too many numbers, facts, or figures in your posts, just TALK. I posted numbers. I will forever be held to those numbers. I am not bullshitting. Are you?

[ 09-24-2002, 02:34: Message edited by: Axel ]

Axel- I don't believe for a second your not Todd E. He was and probably still is a make-believe engineer like you who is so hard up in life that all he can do is make up stories about how much he knows, and insult and criticize others. Your MO and his are just to similar and your attracted to all the same things. Your sentence structure is even the same. ToddE had a major mental meltdown and confessed the truth about himself ,but promised to come back as another loser and man I think it's you! Get a life loser! I also think your just as full of crap!
Look man- just show us how good you are. Post some examples of your work. Convince us. Show us all those Big Bores you've built! What no proof? I've posted my work for others to see and criticize, why don't you prove me wrong! I challenge you to Build a 460WBY on a M700 and post some digital pictures) of your building it and firing it!I'll even give you some loads for it! For a great machinist like you who can hold micron tolerances and is so confident in his CALCULATIONS of adequate action stress this should be childs play! Prove me wrong or just shut-up! I'll bet hell will freeze over before we see any proof from you!
I think your just one more of the PSYCO's infesting this website, whose low on his medication and looking for a fight! Does your Doctor know your not taking your medication again Todd?

[ 09-24-2002, 06:54: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ]

Hi gang,

Man I think my NINJA wildcat is getting a bad start with all these glasses flying around. Just kidding guys. Let's get back in business here for the original intend of this post. Below is an updated drawing per all the input from our wildcatters here. The sexy taper of this cartridge is almost gone now with this design iteration but I think DaggaRon would be proud of this latest drawing.

The internal volume of the cartridge per this drawing should be around 0.000366298 ft^3. This means it should have 160 grains of water capacity, assuming the 505 Gibbs case can contain an overflow water of 180 grains. I am working on the internal ballistics data and hopefully will have something this weekend. This is not a final drawing yet but it is getting close.

I had a long talk with Dave from CH4D today about this cartridge. He did not seem to be impressed but would be happy to make me a set of dies. I plan to have Dave make the dies and Pacific Tool make the reamer. Honeber told me that he should be able to make me some brass. I am waiting for him to tell me the exact cost. Please stay tuned.

Here is my question for those of you that have been down to this road before. Based on my experience with my other CH4D dies, the ones that I have do not seem to size the case down small enough to creat a good neck tension. For this reason, I plan to have two drawings, one for the reamer maker while the other is for the die maker. The drawing for the reamer maker would be the one that you see here. However, I plan to change the neck about .003 in smaller in diameter on the die making drawing so the sizing die will come in on the tight side and would give superior neck tension. Does this approach seem reasonable? Is it nessesary to do this?

Nickudu,

Are you sure about the 505 Gibbs has 180 grains of water while the 500 Jeffery has 160 grains?



Later! Cheers!
Ming

Ming,
That looks perfectomundo to me.

As I understand it, when reloading dies are made, they are cut with a reamer that is slightly smaller all over in diameter than the chamber reamer. Your 0.003" figure sounds familiar as a diameter differential between the reloading die reamer and the rifle chamber reamer. Then the dies are polished after reaming, ja? This allows for some spring back of the lubricated brass when sized and removed from the smooth die interior.

Surely you could notify Dave Davison of this concern about previous dies not sizing the neck down enough and he could make allowances.

I just don't know exactly what that allowance is.

Sumbuddy who know?

I never had to deal with this issue, as the RCBS 500 A-Square dies worked perfectly on my 510 JAB, which is really just a 500 A-Square from a Dave Manson throated chamber reamer. Also, the shoulder happened to come out as 30 degrees instead of the A-Square 35 degrees, but the shoulder is so small, any difference here is surely inconsequential, nominal only, belted case and useless shoulder after all.

And this brings up the throating of your cartridge, which you have not specified.

The traditional 416 Rigby throat is 0.300" of leade with zero freebore.

Your cartridge will surely be used to shoot the hunting bullets of 570 to 600 grains as well as long bullets seated way out, such as the 750 to 800 grain target bullets and the various milsurp bullets.

I would suggest 0.300" freebore plus the leade with a 1 degree 30 minute taper down to a pilot diameter of 0.4995". The freebore diameter is: max. .5115"/min. .5110", for the .510 caliber bullet.

This throat is what is on my 510 JAB and it shoots three of the 705 grain Harlow target bullets (semi bore rider) into 0.170" at 100 yards. It will handle milsurp AP bullets crimped on the cannelure (it was designed for this by Dave Manson from my dummy cartridges) as well as 750 grain Hornady A-Max bullets. It gives sub-MOA performance with hunting bullets of 570 to 600 grains from my 1 in 10" twist McGowen stainless barrel.

And that brings up the issue of barrel twist, somewhere between 10" and 15", ja?

Dave Manson ought to know the difference in diameters of a chamber reamer and die reamer too, ja?:

Dave Manson
8200 Embury Road
Grand Blanc, MI 48439
Phone: 1-810-953-0732
Fax: 1-810-953-0735 ... last I heard tell.

Ming,
BTW measuring my 510 JAB brass with .510 caliber bullet seated shows the neck diameter to be precisely 0.536" which is precisely the cartridge spec for the 500 A-Square. My 510 JAB brass is formed from the Weatherby brass from Norma.

The 510 NINJA looks like it is ready for a case full of RL-15 for the 570 to 600 grainers, and a case full of IMR 4350 for the 700 to 750 grainers, though you might need a slower powder for the 800 to 850 grainers. No filler needed, and No Improvement Needed, Ja?

Ming, yes, I'm pretty sure, but I'm relying on the fact that I've seen it listed as such in different articles of different origin, so I wouldn't bet the farm on it. I suspect it is darn close and I still think a "Jeffreyish" case capacity is what you want.

Ming, the 500 AHR has a capacity of 156 gr h2o according to their website. Since the Jeffery is slightly shorter I suspect that it's capacity may be slightly less than the 500 Jeffery.

Axel

edit-Robgunbuilder, you need to take a pill. Just because you spoke wrongly about the strength of a M700 compared to the M70, CZ550, etc. Does not mean that you do not know how ream a hole and screw in a barrel. It just means you do not know much about stress calculations so in that arena perhaps you had better keep your mouth shut and ask someone who knows. If you cannot handle the fact that a $750000 CNC machining center is more accurate than a $3500 Taiwan/Chinese import lathe I do not know what to say. The same holds true regarding a $1000000 Zeiss CMM versus $75 micrometer/calipers. I am lucky in that in my job I get to play with some very nice toys.

I have told you I am not ToddE. I am not a troll, either. I was merely giving you back some of your own treatment. You treated me badly so I returned to you the favor. You only need to understand the Golden Rule. The converse of this rule is true also.

[ 09-24-2002, 15:18: Message edited by: Axel ]

Ming,
I'm honestly not too wild about "Ninja" as the name of this wildcat. What do the "Ninja" have to do with "things Africa", anyway? I think you should call it the ".500 Skebenga".

See Post: "Scabonga"

Axel/ Troll/ Demple- or whatever your name is your not getting off so easy! Where is the proof of who you say you are? A great machinist/ mechanical Engineer like you must own a digital camera? Show us your work! Build the 460 WBY on a M700 and prove me wrong. Sorry Dwebe but nothing else will convince me or others here that you are not just a TROLL/ TODD E CLONE.
You won't do it because you know it's stupid, you know your calculations suck and above all you know your WRONG. I believe you don't even have the basic skills required. Let's see some pictures or CONFESS. TODD E never posted pictures either! Yes I'm questioning you Credibility! By the way ToddE claimed to have a NYATI and a 500 AHR. It's interesting that you claim to know so much about such obscure cartridges- right TODD. Todd later confessed he didn't have either a AHR or a NYATI. Is it all coming back now? We have not forgotten you!
IF indeed it's true, which I doubt, that you work in a reputable machine shop you have not proven to us that your doing anything more than stamping license plates( a major employer in Detroit). Do you really think anyone here cares in the least about your CNC machining centers or your micrometers? How is that relevant to building big bores or designing cartridges? If you work in the detroit auto industry, I'm even more glad I drive a LEXUS. What's the matter shithead, I've got you dead to rights don't I. I'm not finished with you by a long shot!
Ming- Sorry, but this Dwebe Axel Demple( or is it( ACCIDENTAL) is so PATHETIC that It's got my killer instinct all fired up and I have not given you the positive encouragement that you deserve. The 500 AHR by the way uses the Rigby .590 case head diameter not the Gibbs/Nyati rim of .640. The 500 AHR case I have in front of me is 2.87 inches long ( vs the Jeffrey at 2.756) and has a longer neck than a 500 Jeffery. You can see this on their website also! The shoulder is in the same place as the Jeffery 2.32 inches and the total shoulder is about .070( difference in inches between the shoulder dimension and the base of the neck). Thus, the 500 AHR is essentially a 500 jeffery with the .416 Rigby Rim and a longer neck. All other dimensions except perhaps the shoulder angle appear identical. Interestingly, The water capacity is 165.5 grains. Taken from a fired case. The case I have appears to be lighter than that given on AHR's website. I also didn't run an average which may also explain the small difference. Gee Axel how did you get 152 grains( even AHR's website says 156- this according to Ed was taken from an older lot of brass which might account for the difference) and how from these measurements is it smaller than the 500 Jeffery? Boy your measurements(you just gotta learn how to read those micrometers properly) are right up there with your credentials aren't they!. -Rob

[ 09-24-2002, 23:48: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ]

Jeffe,
Recall that this is a .510/505 Gibbs with Rigby shoulder angle. That 500 AHR or 500 Jeffery is about the closest thing, besides a direct neck-up of the 505 Gibbs.

How about the 510 BIBAMOFU?

Ming,
It looks like a good design for a .510 Wildcat. I even like the name, people know the word 'Ninja' and can relate to it - kind of a silent assasin sort of thing (as long as the bullet stays supersonic ). I really cannot see the need for anything more powerful than a .460/510 Wby design in regard to a carry rifle in .510", but in the same sentence I'll admit that I don't 'need' the T-Rex that I own. However if big bores were based on 'need', we could hunt ANY animal with power to spare using a .416". It looks like it will work well and if you want it enough, go for it.

Dagga,
"This throat is what is on my 510 JAB and it shoots three of the 705 grain Harlow target bullets (semi bore rider) into 0.170" at 100 yards."
This brings a tear of joy to my eye

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Axel:
[QB]Ming, the 500 AHR has a capacity of 156 gr h2o according to their website. Since the Jeffery is slightly shorter I suspect that it's capacity may be slightly less than the 500 Jeffery.

Axel,
The AHR must be longer in the neck (?).

To the base of the neck:
Jeffrey - 2.412" w/20 degrees
AHR - 2.400" w/25 degrees

Diameter at Base: (not head)
Jeffrey - .6190"
AHR - .6194"

Diameter at Shoulder:
Jeffrey .6030"
AHR - .6040"

Pretty darn close. I'd say the internal capacity of the original Jeffrey casing is 160 grains of water perhaps due, in part, to thinner case walls.

[ 09-24-2002, 21:49: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Ming

This may be a stupid question, but how did you measure the internal capacity by your drawing? Did you use a computer program or an equation? I have been looking for an equation to measure internal capacity based on drawings, but haven't been able to find one. Thanks.

BMG,
Yep, thanks for introducing me to the Harlow bullet. BTW, I think the 500 Ninja is an excellent name.

I realized it would be hard to improve on the 500 A-Square/510JAB as a "carry gun." I just put up with the Weatherby belt and have a practical time of it.

Nickudu,
As for the "500 Skebenga," that is a name that should not go to waste. How about the 505 Gibbs necked up, unadulterated. Or how about the .510/585 Nyati?

Is a skebenga someone who thinks he is a bibamofu?

DaggaRon,
Bibamofu, indeed. Ho-Ho-Ho Jeezis Ho-Ho-Ho.

BTW - Didn't Ray recently mention he was an honorary member of the Xhosa tribe? Well it's also a term of theirs, meaning "gangster" or "bad ass" or the like. They have what they call "Skebenga Bars" in South Africa. Nightclubs I guess.

The .510 Skebenga, eh? - Sounds Good

Axel,
Sorry for the redundant post on the Jeffrey / AHR comparison. I missed the earlier reference to it.

[ 09-25-2002, 01:37: Message edited by: Nickudu ]