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Hi guys, Was playing around with my 470 Mbogo again the other day, and decided to see how big of a tree the 470 could shoot through. I shot through an 18" pine when I first got the rifle, but couldn't get through a 24" doug fir with expanding bullets. I figured a solid would have made it by the way the tree shook though. So, anyway, I ended up shooting at this 32" spruce snag (solid, near as I can tell except for insect boring dust under the loose bark), using a 500gr Barnes Solid at 2500fps. You can see the results for yourself... More 470 Mbogo fun... ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} Canuck | ||
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Cool! ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Thanks Nick. I am looking for a slightly bigger tree now. I have one solid left and I figure it should go at least 36 - 40". Next time I plan to put the camera on a tripod behind the tree though, just off to the side so you can see the shooter and the effect of the bullet coming out of the tree and blowing bark towards the camera. With my luck I'll be looking for a new camera, but if it works it should be very cool. Canuck | |||
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Canuck, Great and thanks for sharing it with us. | |||
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Canuck, I have had 416 Rigby tungsten solids penetrate over 50 inches of solid living red oak. The bullet then dug a trench through approximately 3 feet of earth. The muzzle velocity was right at 2700 fps. The 500 AHR has blasted it's way through approximately 54" of living red oak. Bullet was a 570 Woodleigh FMJ at 2480 fps. Both of these "penetration" tests were conducted on living oak trees. In both instances the bullets went completely through two separate solid trees. I know they were solid because these trees were felled for timber and firewood. Have fun making them thar "big bug holes" in them thar trees! [ 11-24-2002, 21:33: Message edited by: 500 AHR ] | |||
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500AHR, thanks for the info. You have inspired me to go bigger. I'll look for a 50"er. One question first, however. Were those tests shooting across the grain or with it? Shooting into the butt of a tree, in the direction of the grain should facilitate greater penetration. Shooting through the pith (center) of a tree crosswise will definately have greater resistance due to the alternating bands of soft earlywood and hard latewood. Shooting on either side of the pith would also lessen resistance by decreasing the amount of latewood that would have to be penetrated. Of course it could also result in a greater degree of deflection. Who thought shooting through a tree would be complicated? Think I'll just crack another Bud and find myself a big tree... Canuck | |||
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Gentlemen, While I am the first to declare I do not worship the god of political correctness, and yes I did shoot trees when I was younger, something about shooting living trees now turns me off. If they were to be harvested in the first place fine but just to shoot one? How 'bout seasoned logs? Anyone who has worked with oak knows a seasoned oak log is much tougher than a live wood. On the farm we had some boards of oak and we could not drive nails through them if the boards dried out. We had to place a tarp over the stack and run a mister for a couple of days if we intended to use them. Canuck, I would be very careful with that camera, I don't know about your luck but I do know with mine the bullet would exit directly at the camera . | |||
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Make sure there are no filthy tree huggers attached to them trees. They can ruin the penetration somewhat. | |||
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Canuck, These were standing living trees. I shot through the trunk about 5' above the ground. We then cut them down. Part of one of them is now a hutch in my dining room. So to answer your question, I shot across the grain. | |||
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500AHR, Thanks. Roger, I understand. That's part of the reason I picked a snag for the test. I am a forester, so I tend to appreciate trees more than most. That said, however, we cause more damage to trees everyday just surveying them. Poking holes in them to age them, cutting into bark to measure its thickness, hacking big chunks of bark off to look for indicators of pests and disease, etc, etc. The other reason is that dry wood is much more resistant to penetration than wet wood and is much more uniform. A living tree would be easier to penetrate than a dead one simply because the sapwood (the living portion of the wood in a tree) is wet enough that the celluslose in the late wood will be soft, and because the moisture reduces friction. In a living tree the moisture is highest in the sapwood (conducts water up from roots to branches) and it decreases (generally, depending on species) as you go inwards through the heartwood (non conductive, dead wood). So you don't have a very consistent resistance to penetration. In a snag the moisture content would be much more uniform and therefore easier to compare between experiments. Canuck | |||
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Canuck, What exactly is a "snag"? In Zim, this past August, I had a .505" 600 grain Barnes SS, pass through a healthy Mopane tree, approximately 14 - 16" thick. The PH was suitably impressed. I know that Mopane wood is quite hard but I wonder how much harder it is than our oak. Anyone? | |||
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Nick, a snag is just a standing dead tree. I am not too sure about the density of mopane. I never actually saw any in RSA that I am aware of. We used leadwood for our fires and I can tell you that is about the densest wood I have ever seen. We deal mainly with softwoods here, so I am not even that familiar with hardwoods like oak/maple etc. Harwoods are generally softer than softwoods like Douglas Fir and Larch while they are living, but once they have been case-hardened in a kiln its a different story!! I'll see if I can find anything in the raft of forestry books I have. Canuck | |||
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Don't go to any trouble, Canuck. I was just wondering if a 15" Mopane tree was as good an indicator of penetration as my Ph seemed to think. Oh, and thanks for getting me out of that "snag". ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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Canuck, Thanks for sharing these.. pretty awesome to see these videos. For what it's worth, on a dead ~20" or so live oak (toppled during a clearing for a pond a year ago, or so) we shot 416 rem softs and fmj, and 577, both.. the 416 made it with only the fmj, but the soft was hornady, and the 577 made it through with both. BREATHTAKING splinters for the 577. jeffe | |||
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Nick, no trouble...you just picqued my curiosity and I actually found a website pretty quickly. This is not an exact indication of resistance to penetration, but density will give us some idea of how hard the wood is. The densities are in kg/m3 and are based on relatively dry wood (15% m.c.). Spruce - 433 Douglas Fir - 500 Western Larch - 593 Red Oak - 640 Mopane - 1200 I'd say that 15" of mopane is probably not half-bad! That's some dense stuff. Canuck | |||
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Here is a picture of me and my friends digging the bullets out of the tree in my next video.  Canuck | |||
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Hi Canuck, I think that the two white marks above the one guys head are where I already shot it. Hate to spoil your fun but you did say you were having a brew. Just got back from my week end up at the cabin. Yahoo!! 470 Mbogo | |||
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Phew .... Punching a hole through that thing would require Treemendous penetration. Can't wait to see the video! Thanks for checking that out, Canuck. A density rating of 1,200 for the Mopane wood, eh? Were there higher ratings listed?? | |||
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HI Canuck, You and Nickudu have me curious also. Do they list Ironwood. I'm not sure of the spelling but the official name is Ligniviti or some thing close. They used to use it for ship bearings in the old days because it is so strong and has natural oils that aid in lubrication. I had a piece of this wood and it was really heavy for it's size. 470 Mbogo | |||
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Nickudu, 1200 is about as high as they go. There are a few others right in that ball park, including African blackwood (1250), african leadwood (1200), a variety of ironwoods and ebony (1200). 470, you are referring to Lignum vitae, which is one of the worlds hardest woods. We studied some samples of this at school...it is damn heavy! Here is an exerpt from a website I found... "Any discussion of ironwoods would not be complete without mentioning the Caribbean tree called lignum vitae (Guaiacum officinale), one of the world's hardest and most famous woods. A similar species (G. sanctum) is native to the Florida Keys. Both species are members of the Caltrop Family (Zygophyllaceae) along with North and South American creosote bush and the ubiquitous puncture vine (Tribulus terrestris). The name lignum vitae means "wood of life," owing to the medicinal properties of the heavy, resinous wood. During the days of masted sailing ships, the wood and sweet-smelling resin globs were sought after for treatments and cures for a variety of human ailments, including gout, syphilis and rheumatism. Today the resin is still used for expectorants and as a dye to detect the presence of occult (hidden) blood. During an annual physical examination, gum guaiac (also called guaiac) is the reagent used to check for blood in a stool sample. Peroxidase enzymes in the blood cells oxidize chemicals in the resin resulting in a characteristic blue-green color change. The raw resin, called gum guaiac, contains about 15 percent vanillin (artificial vanilla), resulting in the sweet aroma. The density and high resin content of the wood make it extremely resistant to friction and abrasion and account for its remarkable self-lubrication properties. In fact, under certain conditions the wood wears better than iron. Because of this, the wood has been highly valued for pulley sheaves, bearings, casters, food-handling machinery, and especially for end grain thrust blocks which line the propeller shafts of steamships. During World War I, attempts were made to use other ironwoods such as Tabebuia guayacan from Central America for propeller shaft bearings, but the wood lacked the oily resin of lignum vitae." The density of Lignum vitae is also 1200 kg/m3 according to the database I found. Canuck[ 11-25-2002, 09:26: Message edited by: Canuck ] | |||
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What a coincidence. I spent this weekend doing some shooting at logs and stuff. We have some seasoned black oak logs from a tree that blew over two years ago. My 500 AHR with 570 gr woodleigh softs behind 118 grs of IMR4831 barely made it 12 inches into this stuff. Solids will exit a 20 inch long seasoned log but just barely. Put two of these logs lengthwise and even a .50 BMG will have problems exiting. Interesting how much the wood is pulverized by the softpoints. For comparison, 00 buckshot will go in about .5 inches maybe. My son and I continued our medium range shooting contest. At 365 yrds and using my 6mmPPC built on a Panda/shilen barrel, I won this week with a 2.45 inch five shot group into a 5 mph wind. Bullet drop was about 20 inches at that range. My sons best was a 3.5 incher using a 300 win mag M24 clone. Next time out I am going to test the ,50BMG Comp gun and see how that compares..-Rob | |||
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Nick, you shouldn'ta oughta got me started!! Here is some more mopane trivia for you to think about when you are enjoying a sundowner around your next african campfire... It has often been assumed that the calorific value of a wood is a measure of its efficiency. Most slow growing savanna trees produce wood of similar calorific value. So what is it that makes mopane the "best fuelwood in Africa"? Microscopic sections of the discs of all four species showed the bulk of the cells to be thick walled fibres, which would burn slowly. Many of the cells seen in the sections were packed with crystals of calcium oxalate. But how did the crystals get into the wood? When tree roots take up salt-rich water from the soil, excess calcium ions, which might upset the overall water balance and kill the tree, are removed. They are combined with oxalic acid, a common constituent of cell sap, to form insoluble, harmless crystal. These crystals, most numerous in mopane, have an interesting effect upon the burning properties of the wood. They begin to decompose at temperatures above 370�C, producing considerable amounts of carbon dioxide, a flame retardant. Mopane wood used on the open fires of rural areas, where temperatures range from 300-800�C, will therefore produce quantities of slow burning, glowing embers and a long lasting, hot fire. Quantities of unpalatable calcium oxalate crystals also deter wood predators such as termites, which often decimate exotic trees. Termite attack tends to be worse in drought, when the trees are weakened. Savanna trees have greater inherent stress resistance and under the driest conditions, when evaporation greatly exceeds precipitation, upper soil levels will be particularly salt rich and shallow rooting species, such as mopane and Combretum apicularun, will produce most calcium oxalate." Canuck | |||
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Nickudu, I guess that makes a 15 in Mopane a good test. Canuck, I had only heard the name and have never seen it written but it got the idea across. When I worked for the telephone company ages ago I did a service call to a wood working shop and the guy gave me a piece of the wood and told me of a few of the applications. It was at least a thirty year jog. Thanks for that. 470 Mbogo | |||
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quote:Yep...we KNOW you did Todd E.   [ 11-25-2002, 10:14: Message edited by: Pecos45 ] | |||
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Was this the rifle you shot thru the tree with Todd?  Who was the "WE" who helped you cut down the tree afterwards? Your buddy Axel? The only thing you two have ever shot was bullshit. | |||
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Rob, That black oak of your sounds like tough stuff! What kind of velocity are you getting out of your 500 AHR with that 118 gr of IMR4831 and 570 grain Woodleigh load? Thanks Pecos, That is a low quality picture you posted of that rifle. However, that rifle seems to be very familiar to me. Just cannot seem to place were I have seen it before. What caliber is it again? [ 11-25-2002, 18:38: Message edited by: 500 AHR ] | |||
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500AHR- I thought you admitted once before( when you were ToddE) that you didn't own a 500 AHR. I know you have researched these guns quite a bit and are familiar with the ballistics. I also guess that if you could you would love to own a 500 AHR. Come clean ,do you own one or not? If so post a real picture. If not just admit it.!There is no shame in not having one. There is shame in pretending! You'll note, I'm not flaming you or disgracing you, I would just like to hear the truth from your own lips! I for one don't want you to go away, I would just like you to be truthfull.-Rob | |||
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Rob, You did not answer my question about the ballistics of your specific 500 AHR load. Please enlighten us all to the ballisitics of that load. While you are at it, could you fill us in with some particulars of your 500 AHR? Some pictures would be nice too, if it isn't too much trouble. Does it really matter if I own a 500 AHR, or not? Seriously, does it? For me to post a picture of a gun (any gun) I either need to take a picture of the gun with my Nikon, get it developed, and scan it in, or borrow a digital camera from work (lots of paper work) and take a picture. In either case I would have to get someone to post it for me as I am too damned ignorant to post my own pictures on the web. That is an aweful lot of work to just see a picture of a rifle, isn't it? If it really matters that much to you Rob I suppose I could get you a picture. [ 11-25-2002, 21:19: Message edited by: 500 AHR ] | |||
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In nearly fifty years in the lumber business in the heart of prime hardwood country I have never seen a red oak tree with a 50" diameter. I'm not sure but I think I saw one that was 47" and people came from other companies to check it out. A 40' is a big one anywhere. | |||
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I took another look at the penetration numbers from 470 Mbogo's website (Comparing the Big Bores article - www.470mbogo.com ). In his plywood test, the 470 Mbogo and 450 Ackley eached managed around 90" of penetration. Most of the others were in the ballpark of 60 to 75" (including the 500 Jeffrey, 505 Gibbs and 500 A2). In that test, 50% of the distance was airspace. So if it was solid wood one could guesstimate that the penetration would have been down closer to 1/2 of that, or 35 to 45". And plywood is not an overly dense wood, although the glue is fairly tough, and it is dry. Thinking further, one could actually figure on an actual penetration that would be something less than 1/2 of the original distance, if the wood was solid. In the test with equal sized air spaces, the displaced wood has a place to go to get out of the way of the bullet. If it were solid, one would expect the friction to be greater as it would take a greater amount of force to displace the wood as the bullet pushes through. So I guess I am going to have to order some more solids and work my way up gradually. 36 to 40" is probably realistic for the trees I have available in that size range (Spruce, Fir, Larch). Canuck | |||
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quote:Actually, AHR, yeah... we've been asking for months jeffe | |||
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500AHR- I'd be happy to post some pictures of mine. I'll take some and post them in a few days. Mine is a good working rifle, basically the equivalent of a .505 Gibbs or 500 Jeffery. I have an X brake installed and it's exceedingly accurate for a big bore. I'm into low pressures and high reliability, not raw horsepower in the .500 AHR. I leave that for more appropriate calibers. I believe the 470 MBOGO can actually outperform the 500 AHR in raw horsepower, based on my limited testing. Yes it does matter if you actually own such a weapon. It matters very very much. If you own one, only then can you legitamately talk about its capabilities. There is a definate line between truth and fantasy. If you cross it too often, then no one will believe a thing you say. If you actually own a 500 AHR, take a picture, scan it and post it( it isn't hard). It would do wonders for your credability which is currently at zero. -Rob | |||
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Rob, Posting pics of your 500 AHR would be great. Since you insist on seeing a picture of my 500 AHR it is shown on Pecos post above. As I said the picture quality is very poor. The barrel is 26" long with a removable muzzle brake, quarter rib, QD Qarne Mounts and 1X4 Leupold scope (not shown in picutre), NEG Flip up night sight, Turkish walnut stock. Rifle weighs in at 10 lbs 4 oz. Have you chronographed that 118gr of IMR4831 load? I would suspect it performs abit better than a 500 NE. With regard to raw hosspower. I have gotten over 2600 fps with a 570 gr Woodleigh solid out of my 500 AHR. Recoil is mighty stiff in a 10.5 lb rifle with that load. It was not a maximum effort load either, based solely on case head expansion and "pressure signs". It was however, over my MAXIMUM for hunting purposes. Which is by the way, what my 500 AHR is for first and foremost. | |||
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My chronograph results were slightly less than 2400fps with the 570 woodleigh, if memory serves. This is all I really want from a hunting rifle. No pressure signs at all and a very shootable load. 2600fps with a 570 gr bullet is really cooking. So Todd ,since Axel first posted that picture of your rifle, tell us who AXEL really is/was. I for one rate you higher than Axel. let's clear the air , in the spirit of telling the truth. If you clear this up, I'm willing to let bye gones be be bye gones. -Rob | |||
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quote:So, why don't you go through the effort and post another couple pics of the 500 ahr? You can send em to me, and I'll post em. jeffe | |||
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And furthermore, | |||
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Rob, Thanks for sharing the chronograph info with me. Axel is a co-worker and friend of mine. He is a German, and he is in his twenties. He doesn't know anything about guns, but I did give him a little technical help on a few of his posts. He is a certified engineer (German equivalent of BS degree). I am willing to let bygones be bygones, too. | |||
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interesting... as this kinda falls inline with his original meltdown... and "fessin' up" ..young guy, no experience... recurring theme Post some pics of YOUR guns, Todd... I've offered to post them from you.. heck, even send me the pictures (if you want them back, send them with a self addressed stamped envelope) and I'll scan and post them for you.. but make sure you fit all the requirements you have stipulated for us... varios angles, bulller and caliper, etc.. quote:click on this link below to see the orginal message http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003917;p=1 quote: | |||
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quote:Mike - 500 Whatever is our resident liar. You will quickly learn not to believe anything this buttflake says. | |||
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