The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores woodleigh hydrostatic for 375 H&HGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| One of Us |
I am looking at loading the Woodleigh hydrostatic for my elephant hunt. Have used their solids for several years but wondering if this would be an improvement? I have used both 300 & 350 gr. Any thoughts? | ||
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| One of Us |
No idea about elephant, but I truly believe that the Hydro is superb, better than conventional bullets (that doesn't mean I don't use conventional bullets - I sure do!). Hydros out of my .375H&H have killed buffalo and wild dog here in Australia, and warthog and giraffe in Botswana. On that giraffe, my first two shots went clean through (from the side) and my third (insurance shot as he lay dead) went in the underside of his chest, through his heart and way up into the neck - more than two metres of travel - before lodging in the spine. That's the only Hydro I've recovered so far. If conventional bullets work fine (usually), the Hydro will work even better, and gives immense confidence. | |||
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| One of Us |
They would be my pick of all bullets to use on Ele. Using a 416 Rigby my Ele and Buff took 1 hydro. In the Buff I hit him in the chest and the hydro was found just short of the skin at his rear end. The Ele droped to shot-Brain- and hydro was not recovered nor was the insurance shot. I would use the 300 grain Hydro for ele if going for a brain shot. The 235 will do the job better than the 300 if you are going for a heart shot. I have a couple of mates that have had similar experiences with the Hydros in various calibres on verious animals. | |||
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| One of Us |
Hydro is a great bullet and it will perform very well on a brain shot. However, it does lack penetration on a follow up shot if needed especially on a quartering away shot or running away shot. Thorns in fingers and hands, cuts in arms and legs, blisters in feets, happiness in me. | |||
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| One of Us |
The monometal solids ie woodleigh's HYdros, North Fork, CEB and GS have the greatest penetration . Don't know where you get it that HYdro's have poor penetration on quartering shots?.... Nick | |||
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| One of Us |
Could you please give us some examples of lack of penetration with Woodleigh Hydros? 465H&H | |||
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| one of us |
With very hard monometals like those, rifling could have a very hard time engraving them and that would cause poor penetration and accuracy. | |||
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| One of Us |
Shootaway, Can you give us a couple of examples where you have seen this occur? 465H&H | |||
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| one of us |
I have over the years discussed my range visits and results here on AR.The bronze or brass monometals presented serious issues when it came to bullet stablization and accuracy.The same bullet manufacturers of these monometals have said the same thing.Where have you been? Do you post things only to win an argument? | |||
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| One of Us |
Woodleigh hydros are made from the same material as soft point jackets. Thus they will engage the rifling and are safe to use in older (pre WWII) double rifles. DRSS | |||
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| One of Us |
First of all, I don't think we had an argument. I simply asked a question because your statement was far out of what I have experienced with these bullets. I suggest you save your testiness for something that might deserve it. 465H&H | |||
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| One of Us |
Perhaps devils advocate, but what is wrong with the standard 350g Woodleigh FMJs? The meplat on the hydro is designed for tissue disruption and this has to have a relationship on penetration, suggesting the 350 will penetrate further? Formerly Gun Barrel Ecologist | |||
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| One of Us |
As GEB stated "The meplat on the hydro is designed for tissue disruption" and a cup point on the Hydro bullet dispersed more energy than flat nose or round nose bullet which result in less penetration. My last hunt in Zimbabwe, November 2015, I shot eighteen big body Bull elephants with 500 MDM and .470 NE, both with Hydro bullets and CEB flat nose bullets. Never once a Hydro bullet completely pased through a big body jumbo on broad side shot whereas most of CEB bullets passed through. Anyhow, it is just my two cents from my limited experience. After all I have only shot sixty nine jumbos in the past five years. Thorns in fingers and hands, cuts in arms and legs, blisters in feets, happiness in me. | |||
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| One of Us |
Stan, Where in Zim did you get to shoot 18 bull ele in one trip??? It's not yet Nov 2015 either. Did you mean last November 2014. I believe Geoff at Woodleigh would have something to say about his HYdros not penetrating enough. Cheers Nick | |||
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| One of Us |
Oh, sorry it was in 2014. Yes, eighteen bulls in one trip with Rusty Labuschagne. The very best elephant PH I have ever hunted with. He is extremely experience, works very hard and noT a single word of BS. Most of the bulls were shot within fifteen paces. The closest distant were seven paced and the farthest distant were twenty one paces. I learnt a whole lot from him. In fact in tweety seven days hunted with him, I have learnt more than from all other PH together in the past six years. Thorns in fingers and hands, cuts in arms and legs, blisters in feets, happiness in me. | |||
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| One of Us |
I have used 300 & 350 gr. Woodleigh FMJ and they worked fine. It's my understanding the flat point or cup forms an air pocket in front of the bullet giving better penetration. That's why I reload, you can try different things. | |||
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One of Us |
I believe Rusty Labuschagne was in Chikurubi prison for a while based on a murder conviction that seemed somewhat dubious. If that is correct, my point is that any white man that has been in Chikurubi prison for any period of time undoubtedly is not afraid of any elephant bull or cow . . . they have already been through hell and emerged on the other side. Mike | |||
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Mike, You are exactly right. The man has no fear for any dangerous games. He is very knowledgeable and highly experice. He know what is doing and he is doing it extremely well. I highly respect him. Thorns in fingers and hands, cuts in arms and legs, blisters in feets, happiness in me. | |||
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| One of Us |
Stan. I must say that I was surprised that you found that Hydros would not exit on broadside body shots. Having only shot roughly half the number of elephant that you have, I'll bow to your experience on broadside shot eles and Hydro penetration. I have never taken that shot as most of mine have been taken with head shots. On frontal brain shots, I found no difference in depth of penetration with 470 or 465 Hydros, CEB#13 or NF solids. All were found in the loin meat at the shoulder blade level. On quartering head shots, none exited from any angle but all passed through the brain. The Hydro showed considerably more bone and tissue damage than the CEB or NF solids. Possibly, trading off more penetration than you need for more tissue damage on body shots may be a plus rather than a negative. 465H&H | |||
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| One of Us |
465H&H, As previously stated, I was hunting for big body bull elephants, not small body bulls or cows. At the very closed distant I was shooting these jumbos, several times I found myself in a situation of either I was pulling a trigger one second too fast or one second too slow. Trust me these jumbos can run away unbeleiveable fast once they know what was going on. Most of the time there was to time to think. Your reaction was become instinctive, especially in thick cover from rain. In elephant hunting, penetration is the name of the game, not more tissue damage. Plus two holes are much better than one when it comes to tracking the wounded one. The outfitter I was hunting with was Zim Africa Safari. I normally hunted with Wayne Jardine it this time he was busy and Rusty was my PH for the first time. Thorns in fingers and hands, cuts in arms and legs, blisters in feets, happiness in me. | |||
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| One of Us |
Stan, It is interesting that although we have both shot a lot of elephant, we have different perspectives on trading penetration for added tissue damage. Not saying either of us is right or wrong. I don't have much experience following wounded elephant, only two and neither went very far and there was no difficulty in following them. It seems to me that they don't bleed much unless a lung is hit but the fact they are travelling fast results in deep foot impressions that are easy to follow. Maybe I will get more experience in following wounded eles in the future but honestly, I hope not. Perhaps that added tissue damage will lead to more blood on the trail or a shorter tracking job. 465H&H | |||
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| One of Us |
I e-mailed Woodleigh about the Hydro and they sent me some interesting info "Our H375 x 300 gr will do the job for you. The reason they perform above other flat nosed mono solids is because the nose form was developed from an engineering principle. The cup nose is part of it, but the concave shoulder is the main working part. This deflects tissue outward from the bullet, creating a bigger than bullet wound channel, and reducing friction on the shank of the bullet, enabling it to penetrate very deeply. I have seen a buffalo’s shot with a 375 hydro which had a hole ¾” through it. I did a frontal brain on an elephant bull with my 500 nitro, upon dissection, the brain cavity had a 2 ½” exit hole, the bullet was found in his pelvic area" I plan on trying them out on a big bull the end of June | |||
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| One of Us |
That is the same type of skull bone destruction that I observed when using the Hydro on elephant and that I reported on in African Hunter magazine. Nice to know that my observation wasn't a one off occurrence. I really think that the Hydro from a suitable caliber is the best currently available solid for elephant. Not that there aren't other perfectly suitable bullets. 465H&H | |||
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Bama, I think Woodleigh is correct in that the 300 grain will work as it has more than enough penetration for any reasonably angled shot. Personally, I would use the 350 grain as it will have equal if not more penetration than the 300 grain but it will hit with a noticeably bigger thump on a charging head shot. You will find that the 350 grain is a much better stopping bullet than the 300 grain. 465H&H | |||
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| One of Us |
I seriously doubt what you say. You obviously do not know or understand how the hydro works. See the post from Bama15. If a hydro will penetrate the full lenght of a buff, chest to rump,including pelvic bone I can not see why it woulkd not through and through an Ele with a side on shot unless the hydros were hiting the leg or shoulder bones and CEB's were not. | |||
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| One of Us |
Tell that to Stans last 18 elephant bulls--  "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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For those who asked about the Woodleigh 350grn FMJ. Darn great penetration is what I have seen. Big Wankie bulls hey Stan? | |||
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| One of Us |
No, I am telling Stan I doubt his versions of events based on my knowledge of Hydro penetration unless there are some other factors that are affecting the performance of the projectiles. i.e. The hydros were hitting solid bone and the CEB were not. | |||
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| One of Us |
So either you are calling Stan a liar, or Hydros have some magic bone seeking magic. Why do you lot refuse to accept real world evidence? The last buff I shot with a CEB solid was a finisher from behind--it broke his pelvis, penetrated to his shoulders, broke his spinal column and was found under the skin in the neck. 416 B&M 350 gr CEB solid @2400 fps You may be in love with Woodleighs, and they are not bad bullets, but to casually dismiss that much field evidence is simply silly. So please stop arbitrarily insulting other hunters.  "The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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Evidence? | |||
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One of Us |
I reckon you missed Stan stating that not all of the CEB flat nose solids (CEB Safari Solids) exited broadside shots on the big body jumbos. Stan made a statement - he was there whereas you weren't. Instead of asking clarifying question you immediate call,him a liar. And yes, where I'm from stating that "I doubt his version of events" is the same as calling that individual a liar regardless of how you attempt to sugar coat it. Perhaps a bit more civility would have resulted in Stan participating in further conversation regarding his November 2014 bull elephant hunt. I certainly wouldn't expect it now. Perhaps you'll have to search through the African hunting reports for those answers now... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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| One of Us |
If I was going to call a person a liar I would do so. Stan made a statement that I find hard to believe, this does not mean in any way he is lying. It simply means I find it hard to believe with what I know and with no further explination. I am not questioning the penetration of the CEB's just the apparent lack of penetration by the Hydro's. This has me wondering if there are other factors that come in to play that Stan has not mentioned/ not aware of/ I am not aware of, that can effect the outcome. I am not aware that I claimed Hydros had a magic way of finding bone. How on earth did you get that impression? When it comes to not eccepting real world evidence, well I am eccepting real world evidence. That is what I have witnessed first hand. I then also weight up what I have read or heard when speaking with others. In no way am I denigrating the CEB flat nose solids. Though I have not used them, I do believe they are an excellent projectile and would use them if Hydros were not about. Capwoward, see above about calling Stan a liar. Where I come from "I doubt his version of events" is not calling a person a liar. Yes, you are correct, I could of and should of expressed my self in a better fashion. No insult was intended. Yes I did miss that bit about some CEB's not going full penetration and I am now wondering why those did not go full penetration. IE what factors were different with those that did and did not exit. Always curious about these things. | |||
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| One of Us |
That I fear may be something we may never have the answer to... Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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| One of Us |
"The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane." Mark Twain TANSTAAFL www.savannagems.com A unique way to own a piece of Africa. DSC Life NRA Life | |||
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| One of Us |
I guess we have different definitions.. No offence intended to Stan as I've never met him and what he says may be gospel. But how are we to know that his "relaying of real world events" is not akin to Taylor and his descriptions of lining up 9 eland in a row (or whatever) or some of Capstick's tales? If its true, it is very surprising. And the explanation of the cup nose energy dissipation on the hydro is at odds with the designer's. So not naturally being inclined to take things on faith, I would need some evidence. | |||
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| One of Us |
Well everyone has different experiences. The round nosed 286 grain PMP solids that I used in my 375 routinely exited the heads of big bull elephant and when I switched to the flat nosed 300 grain Barnes banded because of the theoretical hype about its superior penetration I found to my disappointment on at least 2 occasions they failed to exit on tuskless cow heads,probably the smallest and easiest ele skull for any solid to shoot through as there are no tusk sockets. They work great on buffalo body shots but in my experience not so great on ele head shots. Don't the Woodleigh brass solids also have a flat nose? | |||
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| One of Us |
The woodleigh Hydros have a concave nose and I'm a bit confused as to Geoffs take on the physics of terminal ballistics vs conventional wisdom
Given tissue damage by hydrodynamic pressure is reputedly a function of the angle between the axis of penetration and the bullet nose / meplat, with a larger diameter flatter meplat more effective in producing cavitation from hydrodynamic pressure than a smaller diameter, steeply sloped bullet shape, then the cup nose meplat of the hydro should be creating enough pressure that undamaged tissue is not in contact with the concave shoulder anyway 
That sounds like the influence of meplat shape rather than shoulder What % of diameter is the cup point on the 300g Hydro? Formerly Gun Barrel Ecologist | |||
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| One of Us |
This is crazy. I do not want to be a part of it any longer. Thorns in fingers and hands, cuts in arms and legs, blisters in feets, happiness in me. | |||
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| One of Us |
I have no doubt that Stan has reported what he saw accurately. It would be nice to know some more of the specifics of what he did see. It might explain some of the differences that he saw from what we would expect. Don't give up hope on here Stan, you have a lot of elephant hunting experience that can be helpful to us all. 465H&H | |||
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| One of Us |
It may be a bit late as have been away for a couple of days. Stan don't give up on the forum because a few of usmy be from a different culture and express things abit differently. You seem to have a wealth of knowledge/experience. Like I said in around about way there are reasons for the performance of the bullets. yes I like the Hydros but what i would be interested in is the different conditions/aspects that may have prevented the CEb flat nose from full penetration. I can worry about hydros later. | |||
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