What would you say that the ideal rifle weight (without scope) should be for a 375 H&H rifle and for a 416 rem mag ? Should the 416 weight more ? I don’t want either rifle to kick me into the next century

8 to 9#, depending on your tolerence for recoil.. 7.5 would be better for the 375, and 8-8.5 for the 416 ...

the 375 is NOT a hard kicking rifle, anyone that trained with anything as large as a 458 lott will tell you this. while it may be the top of the average shooters recoil level, it is actually a nice and mild recoil... shoot 10 rounds from a lott and then pick up the 375...

if i ever bother getting around to building a 375 ruger (i am stuck on the steyr) it will be as light as practical, as it also isn't a hard kicker

jeffe

My gunsmith tells me his rule of thumb is two pounds per 1/10th of an inch for 30 caliber and up for the bare rifle. Sights, sling swivels, etc are extra.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

My .375 is 8lbs., 2 oz with scope and is pretty reasonable to shoot ... and I am new to the big bores( i think Ideal would be 7lbs + scope). My .416 is a Rigby around 9.5 lbs including scope.( this is fine to shoot but too heavy to carry all day)

My 375 is 8lbs with scope, 416 Rem mag is 8.75 lbs no scope, and 458 Lott 8.75 lbs no scope. These weights are light for caliber to some, right on for others, too heavy for some. You need to shoot some rifles that are heavy for caliber and light for caliber and you can make an objective decission based on your personal recoil limits.

quote:

Originally posted by GDOG:
My .375 is 8lbs., 2 oz with scope and is pretty reasonable to shoot ... and I am new to the big bores( i think Ideal would be 7lbs + scope). My .416 is a Rigby around 9.5 lbs including scope.( this is fine to shoot but too heavy to carry all day)

WOW, I thought 7# was an ideal wt. for my .280! I would want my 375h&h to be no less than 8.25# w/o scope & the .416, maybe 9.25#. My 404jeffery comes in just above (10.5# scoped & loaded) that & I don't mind shooting it from any position. Yep, it's alittle heavy to carry, but one can manage.

If I remember correctly my 375 weighs 11.75 lbs empty with scope and rings and around 10 lbs bare. Recoil is not bad at all, at least to me, unless I shoot it off the bench, which is a rare occurance.

I would say that you need to balance recoil reduction with rifle weight because there is no sense having a rifle you can shoot but not be able to carry all day. I think I could handle a heavier rifle, but I'm a big guy. 6'1" 240lbs, and in the army I always seemed to get stuck carrying the damned m60, which weighed roughly 23 lbs, empty.

I have a friend who is a little fella, 5'10" 110lbs soaking wet, who can barely handle anything much over 30-06 recoil, so when he got a 300 win mag, he drilled a couple large holes under the recoil pad and filled them full of lead shot, to add a couple pounds to the rifle.

There are alot of factors which affect felt recoil other than just the rifles weight, like the recoil pad, stock design, using proper firing form, and how well the rifle fits you. You can always wear a recoil pad at the range. I have never felt any recoil from my 375 H&H when hunting, even when firing from prone.

My CZ 550 375 weighs over 10 lbs with the scope.
It is very comfortable to shoot at this weight.
I would not want a 375 under 8.5 lbs personally.

Very few people admit to being recoil sensitve on the internet, but there sure seems to be alot of Lead Sleds and recoil pads on the range.

It is dependent upon a lot of factors, including how old you are if you are lugging it around hunting.

Though one can warm up to recoil, there is a practical limit and no one can tell you what that is. For me, the Lott (~5800 ft-lbs) in a 9 lb. rifle is too much recoil, outside of shooting at game. It is just too brutal, for me.

There are physical limts to weight. Probably difficult to get a 375 H&H below 7lbs., a 416 below 7.5 lbs., or a 458 WM below 8 lbs.

My 416 Taylor is 7.5 lbs. and it is fine, but has a McMillan stock which helps with recoil.

Your results will vary.

Modern scoped rifles in synthetic stocks should weigh the same as the old antique walnut-stocked ones having only iron sights.
That is the ideal to be strived for, and may be strayed from for specialized purposes.
Is that enigmatic enough for you?

I like ISS's rule of 2 lbs per .1" of caliber for bare-naked-empty rifles.
That is adequate.
Makes a .375 need to be 7.5 lbs.

My alltime favorite .375 H&H weighs 6.75 lbs, but is close to 8.5 pounds scoped and loaded.

I THINK a Whitworth 375 H&H is about 8# -- I know my Mark X 458 Win is 8.5#, -- the two weigh almost the same -- both are quite pleasant to shoot, as is a 375 Ruger Alaskan at about 8, provided you avoid using a bench.

Really, I wouldn't worry about carrying an 8 or 9 or 7.5# rifle -- I think it's pretty easy to condition yourself to that -- but, I would work on doing shoulder exercises/rotator cuff exercises, etc to make the weight as easy as possible to hold.

M 375/404 ifles weigh 9 pounds with scope and 3 rounds of ammo.

I have carried them in Africa for up 15 hours a day.

The bottom line from all the comments above is each of us is an individual. I'm overweight, 60, 20% disabled and lazy. My hunting buddy is much more physically fit than I am. I'm not as recoil sensitive as he is so I shoot a much lighter .375H&H mag and a .395 Max. He shoots heavier rifles.
Try several and see what weight/caliber YOU enjoy. I've had several people ask to fire a round from my rifles at the range. Different ones had different observations.

It's like asking how much a woman should weigh.

A lot of it is personal preferance.

9 pounds for either one seems to work for mere, and I doubt that 1/2 pound either way would make much difference.

My. Mod 70 .375 weighs about ten lbs loaded on the bathroom scale with scope and I can shoot it all afternoon. I'm 65 and 5/10/175. But...I have an 8lb. .300 ultra mag that really kicks. It and the .375 both dispense 4000ft/lbs. Plus, the higher velocity of the .300 makes a difference in felt recoil, I've been told.

Recoil is a fixed quantity. Its felt effect can be altered by gun weight, recoil-reduction devices and stock fit. I believe that stock fit is more important than gun weight. It would do you well to shoot as many different stock configurations as possible to see which suits your build best. One of the most miserable guns I ever shot was an ill-fitting, 9 pound 700 BDL in 7mm-08. It just sucked. My 375 Wby weighs 8 1/2 pounds scoped and loaded. It fits me well. It's a joy to bench and I can shoot it in a T-shirt until I get bored of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
It's like asking how much a woman should weigh.

A lot of it is personal preferance.

There is a slight difference here.

I don't know of anyone carrying a woman in the African bush all day in the summer heat

In response to another question here the other day, I looked up the following data from my load data. The program computes recoil and velocity of recoil. For comparison purposes, I held the weight of the rifle to 10 pounds:

.366 286-300gr 2200-2400fps [286@2393=26 lbs]

.375 300-320gr 2400-2550fps [300@2555=39 lbs]

.416 400gr 2300-2600fps [400@2330=45 lbs]

.458 500gr 2200fps [500@2200=38 lbs]

My rifles on Mauser actions have barrels about 23-24 inches long. Most are in synthetic or laminated stocks and all weigh very close to 10-10.5 pounds with scope, rings, and ammo. Scope, rings, and mounts run about a pound. The weight of my rifles just works out that way, not planned.

I would very much agree with Bill Stewart's observations about tolerance to recoil, to include getting use to it up to a point. My tolerance level is reached in my 416 Howell, which weighs about 9.5 pounds (no scope), or slightly more than 45 pounds of recoil. (I was surprised to note the jump in recoil for the .40's as compared to the .375 and .458.) I find I can carry a 10 pound rifle all day and I am 66 years old with bad knees (not up and down mountains!)

While a well fitted rifle will minimize subjectively the recoil, physics is physics and you will have to deal with the recoil one way or the other. The simplest and quietest way is to add weight to the gun. Taking the hardest kicking combo above, the .400grain, 40 cal bullet @ 2330, the following reflects the impact of adding weight (for the observant and curious the variance from the data above is due to different powder charge):

8.5# 50 pounds of recoil; velocity of recoil 19.5 foot/pounds/sec
9.0# 47 pounds of recoil; velocity of recoil 18.4 foot/pounds/sec
9.5# 45 pounds of recoil; velocity of recoil 17.4 foot/pounds/sec
10# 42.6 pounds of recoil; velocity of recoil 16.6 foot/pounds/sec

Don't think that the velocity of recoil isn't an issue too. (Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.) That said, it is easier to add weight to a rifle than to take it off. Re-contouring a barrel is the best approach, and they tell me it buggers the accuracy because of stress. You can add weight to the barrel channel and weight to the stock to maintain the balance.

If I had to have a big bore rifle and it had to be very light, a muzzle brake works. Everyone hates them except the guy behind the rifle, but they do work. Kudude

Ideal rifle weight. . . . Hmm.
When your firing it, or carrying it. . . . ?

Firing of course !
So a 9-10 lbs. Scoped 416 rem mag should have „manageable“recoil and the 375 H&H “comfortable" recoil ?

I am not really a lover of light rifles, period, I like muzzle weight even though I'm not big. I would like a .375 to weigh 9 pounds with scope which is pretty much on the button with a Whitworth. I would make a .416 9.5-10 which is what my Rigby weighs. As for a woman, they need to be a little thin at wedding time, since the wedding rings tend to weigh about 40 pounds.

that depends am i walking, widing or sitting.
ill suffer a light rifles recoil if i have to lug it at the ready for 3 miles before i get a shot. tired arms dont a steady shot make.
sitting or riding weight doesnt matter much.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
It's like asking how much a woman should weigh.

A lot of it is personal preferance.

There is a slight difference here.

I don't know of anyone carrying a woman in the African bush all day in the summer heat

Saeed, I've been carrying the same one for 30 years now.

new rule...
the words african, woman, bush and summer heat shall henceforth not be allowed in the same sentence.

8.5 for a .375.

9.5 for a .416.

Both fully loaded and without scopes.

IMHO.

I came to the conclusion that my friend's Brno 602 375 H&H is pretty much ideal for comfortable shooting at 9 lbs scoped.

Today I fired my Ruger No 1 416 Rigby for the first time. It too weighs 9 lbs excluding the fairly lightweight VX-III 2,5-8x36 I installed on it. The Woodleigh 410's @ 2440 nearly beat me to death! *looking for the black-eyed smiley*

Thank goodness I installed a Limbsaver on it before going to the range. I fired about 10 rounds at the bench after firing 28 rounds with the 300 Win Mag, so my shoulder was warmed up. I was very surprised about the recoil and BLAST of this thing! Have been shooting the 458 Win Mag as well as the 416 Rem Mag from the bench before, but this was "worse".

Based on today's experience, I'd say 10 lbs for the 416 Rigby...

Oh, guess I will go down to 300-350 grain bullets for my moose hunting this fall. The 410 grainer simply was too much for me.

Now don't get me wrong - I had a blast at the range today! But I also got some healthy respect for my Rigby...

So:
375 H&H - 9 lbs
416 Rigby - 10 lbs

I shot my 416 T at 8lbs 4oz and did not like it. I bedded it added weight brought it up to 10lbs loaded scope ect its Ok to shoot now.

I amazed at all of you guys that shoot lite weight big bores. You all have my up most respect.

I 'll take a bit more weight and a bit less recoil myself.

I'd be more worried about how the stock felt when shouldered and how well it 'fit' me than recoil, myself.

Guys I'd have to say that in the field, I can't recall how much recoil the rifle had, especially when firing at an animal

But, hunting in Australia does very, I have never sat in a hide or blind, and I don't drive around in a vehicle looking for game. It's a daypack and on foot for up to 6 or 7 hours most of the time for me

I can tell you quite a few hunts were I hunted very steep country and my rifle felt like it was 25 LBs by the end of the day, I use my rifle like a walking stick in real steep country

Most of my stalking rifles are carried a lot and fired very little, and I like to hit my animals as hard as I can. with the heaviest projectile.

I like my rifles even the big bores at between about 8 and 9.5lb and managing recoil comes back to a good stock design and a good kick pad

all the best
S&F

9-10 lbs. with scope, sling, and ammo is a good weight for me. I can hump the rifle and shoot it in practice without developing a flinch that will carry over to the hunting field. But then again, I'm a wimp for recoil!

Another vote for the 9-10 lbs.

Although I prefer a 8.5 to 9 lb. rifle in either a 375 or 416, more important is the stocking job..

A rifle that fits you and has some cast off is a pleasure to shoot even when some lighter...

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Although I prefer a 8.5 to 9 lb. rifle in either a 375 or 416, more important is the stocking job..

A rifle that fits you and has some cast off is a pleasure to shoot even when some lighter...

I pretty much agree with Ray on the above, except I prefer just 8.5 lbs. for my 375, 404 Jeffery, and 458 Lott.

And his advice on stock fit, cast off, etc. is spot on of course.

Actually the pleasurable shooting and carrying of a rifle depend on many things. The person involved, the caliber involved and the rifle involved including its caliber, bullet weight and speed, stock design, balance, etc.
as for the person, it is relatively easy to condition yourself to carry a bit more rifle but sometimes health, age and physical condition may not allow as much progress in this respect than for others. Stock design is very important in the felt recoil. I have four 375 HH rifles and all are stocked a bit differently. My Hyem Express is stocked best for me and recoil is nothing, balance and pointing are incredible and even though it weighs a bit more than others carry’s well and is a pleasure to carry as well as shoot.
There is a way to test what weight you may be able t carry comfortably. If you are thinking of a particular rifle you can find a piece of pvc pipe and cut it t the length of the rifle, put a cap on one end, fill it with sand or weights to mimick the eight and balance of the rifle and cap the other end. You can the put a couple sling swivels on it placed as the rifle would be and then carry it or hike with it as you would if hunting and you will know what your in for.
As for recoil, you will have to shoot a similar rifle and caliber to get an idea. Remember though that shooting in the field at an animal will NOT be the same as shooting at the bench, it just isn’t and in the field you will not notice recoil the same as you are focused on the animal. To close I will say the 375 HH is my favorite caliber and a person can hunt the world with it it is a great choice. Good luck !

All that's been said to this point has been very good and covers most issues related to the physics of recoil and "felt" recoil. Except for the post that described a 500gr at 2200 fps giving "only" 38 ft-lbs recoil -- that's simply NOT possible from a 10 lb rifle -- That should be about 60 ft-lbs based on physics.

However there are a couple of more items related to this subject that hasn't been yet mentioned:

1) My Ruger No.1 in .458 Win Mag weighs 10.3 lbs with a 2 - 7 x 32 Nikon on board. With five cartridges loaded with 500gr projectiles in a buttstock cartridge holder, it comes in a 10.7 lbs. Five loaded with 350s and the whole rig weighs 10.6 lbs. This is my favorite big-game rifle. Depending on the load I'm using for a particular hunt in Ontario, Canada, recoil can vary between 27 ft-lbs to a high of 62 ft-lbs. And apart from the recoil, I use a variety of carrying methods in walking about: sling over the shoulder (on either side), port arms, cradle, and hand carry on either side. This breaks up the sense of too much weight on particular muscles and parts of the body. Then, of course, I at times take a break and sit in a good area when watching a game trail, etc. In baiting bear it's mostly in a blind in a sitting position. But I don't take the .458 into a tree stand.

2) In bench shooting, I limit the number of shots in load development and in practice. I never shoot more than 10 heavy loads from my .458 at the same range session. I take other rifles along with less recoil, including a .22LR. At the bench, posture and "more than adequate" ear protection is warranted. I use a magnum PAST protector, a terry cloth towel folded under that and plugs as well as muffs. Load noise from the muzzle or brake (mine has Mag-na-porting) increases the sense of "felt recoil" -- I know that from experience.

I just turned 85 a few days ago, and I've handloaded most common cartridges from the .22 Hornet to the .458 Win Mag, and I've never been hurt (damaged) by recoil yet... but ear damage? That's a serious matter!
PS: And size has little to nothing to do with handling recoil -- but physical fitness and attitude do!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

As I've gotten older I like less weight and less recoil. My 9 pound 375H&H is a comfortable maximum.

Dave

Just got through reading a book by J. Alain Smith in which he both sang the praises of the .375's, vilified the .416's as having too much recoil (while he carries a .577 double) and advised that he didn't want any comments or advice on his caliber and rifle choices. I guess we are all a bit like that. But a double's recoil is different. Have to admit, I've never shot a .577.

We all have our personal opinions, likes and dislikes. We all have limits to our recoil tolerance. Mine is my fairly lightweight .458 Lott. I call it the "She-Bitch From Hell." I don't want anything bigger. I too hate muzzle brakes. My old .416 is a bit heavy for caliber, but recoil is very manageable. Never put it on a scale, but it's a tack driver. I'm also not a fan of short barrels, so it's a bit long. However, I've carried it in all sorts of conditions and never found its weight or length to be an issue.

Unlike Mr. Smith, I'm open to comments, but I'd find by .416 hard to beat. Off the bench, it's a one hole rifle at 100 yards, albeit a ragged hole. It's 6 inches low at 200 and 21 inches low at 300. It's cleanly taken everything from dik dik to elephant. Buffalo out to 200+ and a kongoni at 300 or so. I really like this rifle and while I'm open to comments, you aren't likely to change my mind.


Good Hunting.

Just for comparison the M1 Girand rifle of WW2 weighed from 9.5 lbs to 11.7 lbs empty. The carried this rifle loaded and other gear, all day long through any weather for weeks, months, and years or until they were dead.

I would say that there can be no hard and fast rule about rifle weight. Different folks react to recoil differently, but equally as important is the fact that different people have a minimum weight that they can shoot accurately. What difference does it make what the rifle weighs, if it doesn't perform its design function, which is to hit what it is aimed at?

More precisely, the minimum weight for a rifle is the least one can weigh and still allow the shooter to use it effectively standing, unsupported. I made all my shots on elephant, rhino and buffalo from this position, mostly with an 8.75 pound rifle, and being able to do so was the result of a lot of practice with it. Weight is immaterial when shooting off sticks.