What does a premium mauser action buy you other than manhours of a good gunsmith? What do you get from a Prechtel, Johannsen or Granite Mountain that is above and beyond a Winchester or Dakota? Jist asking

For a lot of guys it's just bragging rights.

Hugh,

You get a rifle that feeds and functions perfectly every time, whether worked slow, fast, pointed up, pointed down, etc. No misfires. No jams or hangups while feeding. No failures to eject.

You also get sights which will stand up to use, not those flimsy Model 70 sights, or those Rem sights which have actually rattled off of a .458.

Then there is the problem of magazine boxes popping open when the gun is fired, which happens with all sorts of factory rifles.

And stocks crack on cheap guns.

A Prechtl, Ritterbusch, Johannsen, Breeding, Smithson rifle will not suffer any of those problems. And it will be a work of art.

And you can get a fine custom rifle in calibers for which no factory guns are made, and which your local gunsmith is incable of assembling competently.

Breeding:




Prechtl:



Ritterbusch:



Johannsen:

Just awesome stuff.

Bolt Action trash of highest quality.

The Johannsen built .416 Rigby that I handled at Cabela's struck me as "good as it gets" in bolt rifles. Quite refreshing to see such a "spec rifle" on the shelf there in Sidney, NE.

My SigArms Mauser 98 Magnum in .450 Dakota is crude by comparison to the Johannsen, though they both use the same Prechtl action.

The Johannsen is worth a 100% premium over the SigArms M98 Magnum.

Getting Mr. Prechtl to build one, or a Breeding on a Granite Mountain could be as good as a Johannsen, and the sky could be the limit of course, in price, but I really wouldn't care for anything more ornate than a basic Johannsen.

After all, I am a trashy kind of guy who sees hope in getting a Winchester M70 up to snuff for huntin' purposes.

Generally I've learned that you get what you pay for. A premium action is a SOLID basis for a big bore rifle that holds more than three rounds(not including one in the pipe like WBY), will feed and eject with stone cold reliability, is machined from high quality steel and basically won't fail you when you need it the most. You may want to believe that a CZ, model 70, etc. is just as good, but you will be flat wrong. I have put over 100 hrs into a CZ550 to make it work on the .600OK. The second one I built used a Granite mountain action and it took one tenth of the time and functions flawlessly.-Rob

Hugh W
As a owner of factory Rem, Wea, CZ 550, Win Mod 70 actions, only the Win and the CZ were usable for big game hunting when some time was put in by a gun smith to tweak them. Strangely enough, a factory classic by Win Mod 70 - 416 Rem was the smoothest most reliable action right out of the box some 8 yrs ago. A Win Mod 70 custom house .375
did not measure up.
The Dakota, CZ 550 reworked by AHR, and now recently GMA actions in big bore calibers are the smoothest and most reliable that I own. The one exception is the Win 416.

Some veteran hunters have told me several years ago that it better to have a few very reliable rifles that a lot of factory grade rifles that perform marginally. Easy to say and hard to do.

Dak

I have a factory Win M70 .375 in the house right now that has an ejection problem right out of the box.

I'm really sold on the GMA action. It has a full 4" magazine and the fit and finish is better than most. Still it needs a bit of work and polishing to get it up to snuff but in my mind it's money ahead than the hours and hours to get some of the others ready to go.

The CZ-550 and model 70 are also excellent actions but need a fair amount of help to be 100% reliable and to function flawlessly.

IMO.

John

One of the major reasons that they feed flawlessly is that all quality custom action makers are building the action specificlly for the cartridge. With a mass produced action, they are all built the same and then it is up to a gunsmith to make them work with a different cartridge. With all of the high end action builders, Dakota, GMA, Johannsen and others it is also the attention to detail. Making things fit properly, not too loose and not to tight and all the mechanical interactions working perfectly is not a simple task. We have had many clients who have purchased from us and told us that the cost to get a mass produced action up to there level of expectation cost as much or more that starting with a 'premium' action right out of the shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by WaffenfabrikHein:
...building the action specificlly for the cartridge.

Before perfecting the bolt action in 1898, Mauser put millions of rifles on the battlefield and they learned from every one of them. As a result, every radius, bevel, angle and flat on a 98 Mauser is there for a reason, and the most important ones are in the magazine. Even a crappy wartime 98 -- if it's unaltered and original -- feeds better than nearly any of today's factory rifles. Major gunmakers can't afford to build guns the way Mauser did and most people don't know the difference, so they put a half-assed product out the door and let you make it right.


Okie John

500 gr there just so nice but in a price league that I will never be able to afford.............so I pretend my cz's are of equal quality, I have never handled any of those rifles so I am blissfully ignorant

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
500 gr there just so nice but in a price league that I will never be able to afford.............so I pretend my cz's are of equal quality, I have never handled any of those rifles so I am blissfully ignorant

PC,

Once you handle one of those rifles, your priorities will change.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
500 gr there just so nice but in a price league that I will never be able to afford.............so I pretend my cz's are of equal quality, I have never handled any of those rifles so I am blissfully ignorant

PC,

Once you handle one of those rifles, your priorities will change.

I handled a Ritterbursch take-down in 416Rigby a week ago, and have to say that few, if any, rifles I've handled felt so good. So... right. But the payoff with such fine wood is a bit of extra weight. It was a work of art, and is at the moment with the owner down in Zim in search of elephant.

One day...

Oh Folks I am just newly married and if I handle rifles like that I will be newly divorced

How would you Mauser type fans compares those actions to a D'Arcy Echols done Model 70, excluding the ability to take a bigger cartridge.

Mike

Mike375,

A D'Arcy Echols M70 is absolutely reliable, and with a wood stock they look great. But they are still an investment cast Model 70 at heart. Kind of like a Chevy truck that has been totally rebuilt with care and then given a really nice paint job. But it will never be a Mercedes Unimog diesel.

500,

Is a Model 70 investment cast??

Although I do agree with your views in general and especially with the M70 2 piece bolt which I believe is no longer on a spline but pressed onto a knurled surface. At least if it comes loose you don't have to go looking around in the grass for the bolt handle.

By the way, I love the look of those Ryan Breeding rifles, those to my eye and Wbys are the two best looking guns. Only problem with the Ryan Breeding rifle is it needs the very short barrel to get the appearance. With the muzzle brake they look like a bolt action assault rifle. I believe that Gil Van Horn taught Ryan Breeding and Gil Van Horn was originally a gunsmith at Wby in earlier days.

Mike

Mike, I think so but correct me if I am wrong.

A lot of the Breeding rifles have an extra deep magazine box, contributing to the look. Karl Heinz-Ritterbusch also makes them that way. But Ritterbusch tends to use longer barrels than Breeding, perhaps in pursuit of a more European look. Breeding figured out that in a big bore you don't lose much velocity by cutting the barrel because what counts is total barrel volume, and big bore barrels have lots of volume in there to burn the powder.

I know that Breeding worked with Van Horn in the early days. The gunsmith who made my first .585 also worked at Weatherby in the early 1960's, but thank God my .585 did not end up looking like a Weatherby.

The post-63 (to present) Model 70 receiver is not investment cast. It starts out as a forged billet of chrome-moly steel, and if you examine a photo of this billet, it's clear that it's pretty much a solid block of steel that is in the most basic, general outline of the finished receiver. A tremendous amount of steel remains to be machined away before the receiver attains its final form. Forging greatly enhances the grain structure of the steel for maximum strength and durability, without the mass that is necessary for an investment cast receiver to achieve the same strength. These receivers are very carefully heat-treated as well.

The original Mauser 98 receivers (and bolts) were also forged, then machined. Also Colt 1911 frames, pre-64 Model 70 bolts, etc. It is a high-quality production method, and this method of fabrication is expensive, and greatly exceeds the resources of most small manufacturers -- a little secret that most of them don't let you in on. See the post-64 Model 70 chapter in Stuart Otteson's great book, "The Bolt Action" for a complete explaination.

As far as these premium Mauser actions are concerned, I'm all for them. They epitomize high-quality riflemaking with an emphasis on function, quality, reliability, and durability. Most of these are milled from solid steel, which is another high-quality fabrication method. Hartmann & Weiss and Granite Mountian actions (the only ones I've seen in person) are beautifully made, and that is a gross understatment.

AD

If I had the money to waste I would have a 375 H&H or 350 Rigby in a Wby Crown Custon with the Special Select Claro option and also a Purdey or H&H made in 30/378

A mate of mine reckons if you did a 375 H&H in an upgraded Wby Crown Custom then Hollands would probably take legal action

Joking aside it is interesting how diverse rifle tastes can be when you think you can pay $10000US for a Wby and a 2 year wait or do the same with a Breeding type rifle etc.

Actually I like all the rifles that are well done in their respective areas but I like calibre and rifle match up. For example I like very much the idea of a done Granite etc in 416 Rigby, 450 Rigby, 375 H&H but you could not give me one in 378 or 460 Wby. If I was doing a 404 at the higher level it would have to be on a Mauser, I could not own one on a Model 70.

By the way barrel lenghth Vs velocity is not just about burning powder but the distance the bullet has to accelerate. A 20 inch barrel is like a drag strip that is only 375 yards long instead of 440 yards.

I have posted links on an Australian hunting site of that Ryan Breeding 500 Jeffery, the Wby Snow Camo DGR with titanium nitride finish and Wby Crown Custom and both the Ryan Breeding and Wbys get about an equal number of "I hate them" responses.

If you are buying done up Wbys, Ryan Breedings or whatever and you are going cross eyed at the cost i find the best thing to do is look at the H&H Paris gun room just to bring things into perspective.

As PC will tell you H&H just paid $10000 each for Australian English blanks. Can you imagine what those bolt actions will cost.

As you probably know H&H are about $5000US for their detachable mounts and I believe they were made by an Australian who use to get $750 for them of H&H.

Mike

What's not to like in this .505 Gibbs?

I love them...doubly so when the muzzle brake is on

Mike

The thing that's great about a riflemaker like Breeding is that he is, by intent, training, and expertise -- not by accident -- building serious hunting rifles for serious use. That's what makes his product worth the money. More is on the inside than on the outside, and you're actually getting more than you think you're getting.

The older pre-WWII British magazine rifles built on commercial Mauser actions were also built for serious use and were beautifully made. I don't think the current British magazine rifles can compare to the older ones, and are not in the same league as top American bolt-guns or European makers such as Hartmann & Weiss, not on today's market.

AD

Allen,

I reckon the M70 has the best receiver of all actions.

A Mauser always looks to me like someone looked at the M70 and said to themselves "how can I ruin the bedding configuration of that receiver"

Make the recoil lug much smaller, move the recoil lug back to minimise the amount of stock material behind the recoil and then make the tang as small as possible so as to remove all bedding area

Mike

Mike375

Joking aside, has your matched pair of 378 cleared customs and arrived?

Do post some pictures

Cheers
/ JOHAN

An academic question - does Fred Wells still make his custom Mauser actions? Dan Pedersen's website no longer has a link to Wells' action site and the old earthlink homepage has also been defunct for some time now.

Would someone know? Thanks for the information in advance and good hunting!

It was my good fortune to be shown and allowed to handle Commander Blunts' 416 Rigby, (Some of you may have heard of him). It was quite plain to look at. But the action was smooth and I understand 100% reliable.
I have guns made in the Good Old USA and a couple of Huqvarnas on Mauser actions. The Mausers are far better.
The first time I had to reload one of my Remington in the field it jammed. Never had that problem with a Mauser.
There is nothing as reliable as a '98, it's the best action for a sporting rifle!

JOHAN

One pair is at the gunshop and the other pair shold be here isn September or there abouts, next Wby shipment to Australia

"500grains" I totally agree with your remmark about "once you hold one of these rifles your priorities will change".

Absolutely true....The first time I held the "Hoenig" bolt gun I now own it was an instant response; "Damn this rifle is smooth" - the difference in these high grade rfles is night and day from that of production guns.

5 years ago if somebody suggested that I buy a bolt gun that would cost in excess of 10K I'd laugh and call them a fool - not any more...

...the difference is real and my ammo guy's favorite saying reigns supreme - "Nothing cheap is good and nothing good is cheap"!!!

I fully understand people being on a budget, been there done that! You folks have my respect.

But for those of you that have the cash and are just plain cheap - wise-up and get one of the premium rifles aforementioned you will not regret it!

JW's 02!

500.
The 505,
Since you ask, I prefer the rear sight to slope forward rather than back. However I can see that a rearward sloping sight might be less likely to snag when crawling through the thick stuff.
Please tell me, why might one have the sight sloping back, are there any practical advantages or is it a matter of aesthetics?

quote:

An academic question - does Fred Wells still make his custom Mauser actions? Dan Pedersen's website no longer has a link to Wells' action site and the old earthlink homepage has also been defunct for some time now.

Would someone know? Thanks for the information in advance and good hunting!

Mehul Kamdar

Yes, Fred is still at it. His phone # in Prescott, AZ is 928-445-3655

oldun, I really cannot say except to speculate that it keeps the part of the rear sight which you look at in the shade all the time, for a blacker and glareless sight picture.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
oldun, I really cannot say except to speculate that it keeps the part of the rear sight which you look at in the shade all the time, for a blacker and glareless sight picture.

That has got to be the reason. Blackens the rear sight/lessens glare. Contrasts better, with highlighting the notch/V and the front sight bead or blade.

Gentlemen,

I own Ritterbursch – Johannsen – Dumoulin and others.

I like the rifle below the best, it’s smoother and more accurate than the above, reliability is the same 99.9999999 %



Roland

Roland, that looks like a Model 70 that was reworked and restocked by John Boliger?

Beautiful rifle!

AD

Gentlemen,

Germans and Belgians both make excellent firearms; above and beyond that, I believe strongly that the finest custom rifles ever made are being crafted right now here in the US. I do not see in any aspect or form that the famous names in Europe make a better product. If anybody can point out or explain in detail, why a Johannsen or a Ritterbush is superior, please let me know, I would like to be enlightened

Allen,
You are correct, John Bolliger - Model 70 .375 H&H and like I mentioned before, it’s smoother and more accurate than the, Ritterbush, Johannsen and Dumoulin I own, reliability is the same 99.9999999 %.

Roland

quote:

Roland: I believe strongly that the finest custom rifles ever made are being crafted right now here in the US.

Ditto. Not too long ago the art of fine gunsmaking was nearly lost. Gunmaking however has experienced quite a renaissance and the state-of-the-art exists right now. The ACGG & top Europeans are now producing the finest firearms ever. Just go to the Vegas or Reno shows for confirmation.

quote:

Originally posted by Roland1:
Gentlemen,

I own Ritterbursch – Johannsen – Dumoulin and others.

I like the rifle below the best, it’s smoother and more accurate than the above, reliability is the same 99.9999999 %



Roland

That picture is sure worth repeating.

Really nice faux-square-bridge scope mount bases. Feather weight barrel contour. Drop belly or Sunny Hill type box. And amazing wood.

Any open sights on this? Classic or Pre-64?

Let me guess the, the muzzle diameter: 0.625" to 0.650" ???

500,
An interesting observation the shodow effect.
My preference is for a narrow vertical line of platinium inlayed into a forward inclined rear sight and a platinum bead front sight This arrangement is on my Army and Navy rifle. The platinum picks up light wonderfully well in bright light, aiding quick alignment. Under cover, in defuse light, the platinum does not stand out quite as well, however it is aided by any available light falling on the forward sloping sight.
Like the 505 the A&N has a protective tunnel on the fore sight which can be swung forwards to expose the bead to all available light.
I have found with the passing years and the increase of the great bug bear declining eye sight that the platinum draws my eye and aids accuracy.
This could be explained by ingrained habit, I can't make an objective assessment, but it works very well for me.