In the other thread I saw that some posters thought that the 375R case will do a good 416...

What performance would someone expect with this case necked up to 416 ???

I don't care if the world needs another 416 or those kind of things, I enjoy guns, many guns....

L

2400 fps or so with high pressure.

about 416 rem, or less than the 416 AR .. case will have more volume than a 416 rem

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:
2400 fps or so with high pressure.

One can get 400 grains moving at 2300 with the 416 Taylor and the Ruger case is larger so I think this 2,400 is a pretty safe estimate.

I'm hoping for a 423 version

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
about 416 rem, or less than the 416 AR .. case will have more volume than a 416 rem

jeffe

jeffe,
Are you saying that the 375 Ruger case has more volume capacity than the 416 Rem case?

KB

KB,
the exterior balistics show it to be closer to the RUM than the HH... only one way to get there in commerical ammo, right?

cubic inches
jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
KB,
the exterior balistics show it to be closer to the RUM than the HH... only one way to get there in commerical ammo, right?

cubic inches
jeffe

Jeffe,
If you're saying that the 375 Ruger has more case capacity than a 416 Rem Mag....based on the fact that it's performqnce criteria is more like the RUM please bear in mind that it's loaded by Hornady.....masters of the heavy and light magnum.

I seriously doubt that a 375 Ruger neck up to 416 has greater capacity than the 416 Rem Mag.

Give it a second thought,,,,,ok?

Either way, case capacity is plenty adequate to achieve the magic 2300 - 2350 fps with 400 gr in .411, .416. or .423. Probably with a 20" or 21" barrel, and probably with moderate pressure.

That's all the speed I want. I already have a stainless Ruger MK II in 300WM, just waiting for the brass & reamer specs to be available, so I can order the barrel.

I have been thinking of making a 416 Taylor for years. Now I have an excuse to go ahead with a wildcat, but I can't decide which bullet diameter .411, .416 or .423. My choice will probably be made by which reamer becomes available first, so I don't have to bear the whole cost of the custom reamer.

KB

There's another choice.. and it's ready today

Comparing a 416 Ruger (best guess at case dimension, but the truth is no error will have a significant impact on case volumes) to a 416 Remington and 416 Taylor.

416 Remington:
Case volume: ~ 105gr H2O
Case volume with 400gr Hornady seated to cannelure: ~ 89 gr H2O

Muzzle velocity achieved with 26" barrel and 400 gr bullet: 2450 fps @ 64,000 psi

416 Ruger
Case volume: 98.5 gr H2O
Case volume with 400gr Hornady seated to cannelure: ~ 78 gr H2O

Muzzle velocity achieved with 26" barrel and 400 gr bullet: 2355 fps @ 64,000 psi


416 Taylor
Case volume: 91 gr H2O
Case volume with 400gr Hornady seated to cannelure: ~ 71 gr H2O

Muzzle velocity achieved with 26" barrel and 400 gr bullet: 2280 fps @ 64,000

So the Ruger would run about 100 fps slower than the 416 Rem at equal chamber pressures, and bout 75fps faster than the Taylor. Surprise surprise, the 416 Ruger would fall right between the 416 Rem and the 416 Taylor.

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Comparing a 416 Ruger (best guess at case dimension, but the truth is no error will have a significant impact on case volumes) to a 416 Remington and 416 Taylor.

416 Taylor
Case volume: 91 gr H2O
Case volume with 400gr Hornady seated to cannelure: ~ 71 gr H2O

Muzzle velocity achieved with 26" barrel and 400 gr bullet: 2280 fps @ 64,000

So the Ruger would run about 100 fps slower than the 416 Rem at equal chamber pressures, and bout 75fps faster than the Taylor. Surprise surprise, the 416 Ruger would fall right between the 416 Rem and the 416 Taylor.

Looking over my old load notes:
- MAP for the 416Taylor is 53,000 cup/63,800 piezo psi.
- 70.5gr Rel.15 will drive a 400gr bullet approx 2250fps.
- 75.0gr Rel.15 will drive a 400gr bullet approx 2390fps w/ a MAP of 48,800 cup (comfortably under max).

The 375-338WM gets close to 375H&H velocities using less powder in a very efficient case. Same can be said that the 416Taylor gets close to 416Rem velocities using less powder in a very efficient case.

I suspect that this new 375Ruger case will maximize efficiency to include an increase in case capacity over the 375-338WM to fit in a standard '06 length action and will better the 375H&H in factory velocities(as reported). I also suspect that a 416Ruger wildcat would outdo the 416Taylor and would equal or better the 416Rem in factory velocities.

Even if the 375Ruger can only match the performance of the 375-338WM, it would be a solid performer backed by a major gun manufacturer and an ammunition manufacturer w/ ammo and components availability beyond the life of the rifle. I don't see it as replacing the 375H&H but I do see it as a viable alternative and probably a better choice than the 375-338WM or the 416Taylor as well as a few other cartridges in this class.

GVA

I was providing a relativity study based upon simulation, it is sound. Personally, I question your pressure data, where/what is it from?

quote:

Originally posted by Scotts:
I was providing a relativity study based upon simulation, it is sound. Personally, I question your pressure data, where/what is it from?

LMFAO

You made your's up (relativity? you meant comparative analysis, right?) , but he can't?

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
I was providing a relativity study based upon simulation, it is sound. Personally, I question your pressure data, where/what is it from?

The A-Square Company adopted and standardized the 416T. They are one of only 19 SAAMI members and use a SAAMI standardized and vetted pressure barrel to take pressure by the Piezo-Electric method. That data is published in their manual for the 416Taylor. They load their factory 400gr ammo to 2350fps and have load data to just under 2400fps that is under max pressure.

In addition, "The Reloading Page" on this site has an A-square load of 74grains of RL-15 pushing a 400gr bullet 2438fps out of a 25.5" barrel into a 0.925" three shot group.

As I said before, I suspect that a 416-375Ruger wildcat would probably better the Chatfield-Taylor. And even if it only equals it, remember that Robert Chatfield-Taylor used the 416T on the African Big 5.

GVA

Gary,
Considering that the Ruger is has more case capacity (assuming the reports that the base diameter is 0.532" instead of 0.511") I would expect a 416 Ruger to surpass the 416 Taylor.
Thanks again for clarification of your pressure data I hadn't looked at Any Shot You Want for it.

Jeffeosso, I didn't make up anything. I was using commercial software for my analysis. Comparative analysis, relative performance differential, relativity, whatever you want to call it. A 416 Ruger, if it has the larger base diameter of 0.532", should fall between the 416 Remington and 416 Taylor in performance. To me anyway, a 416 Ruger is an unnecessary development.

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Jeffeosso, I didn't make up anything.

Scott,
where do you get the case capacity for the ruger? You MADE IT UP. You might have made educated guesses, or even uneducated ones, but your PRIMARY datapoint is an assumption, not a fact.

Are you familiar with the tech term
G I G O

if you assumption is wrong... well, yeah

You really should try saying what you mean.. you SAID relativity study, the first time.

You don't have a solid bases for even knowing the case SPEC lengh , much less the shoulder height and taper.. and without those datapoints, this is conjecture.

So, I'll ask again, why can't he make it up if you can?

jeffe

heffe

jeffeosso,

Fine. If my assumptions are off, and it is the smaller base diameter it is for all practical purposes a beltless 416 Taylor. If it is any base diameter up to 0.532" it will fall between the 416 Remington and the 416 Taylor.

Again, it is a solution looking for a problem. The Taylor works in the 3.34" action and the Remington in the 3.6+" actions. So again why do I need a 416 Ruger???? Actually, I have a hard time understanding a need for a 416 anything.

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Actually, I have a hard time understanding a need for a 416 anything.

truer words never typed.

jeffe

quote:

Actually, I have a hard time understanding a need for a 416 anything.

It's the biggest cartridge that most casual shooters can hope to master.

Forrest,
the phrase on the relative quality of a 416 wasn't where I found the humor

All of the discussion of the merits of the various rounds on this thread and the thread about the 375 Ruger are forgetting one key issue in real world hunting the "high pressure" issue. Over the years we have argued the merits of the 416 Remington and the 458Win mag. and the conclusion has always been that these rounds, especially the 416 Rem. Mag. can fail in Africa due to high pressure generating When comparing all of these newer rounds to the older established ones such as the 375 H&H and the 416 Rigby, are we not in inviting trouble. All of the new case designs attempt to duplicate original factory rounds in a shorter more compact round. Often they do but at the expense of pressure. Other that the fact that we want something new and improved (pun intended) It really is hard to beat the originals.