We had what almost turned into a gang fight/war yesterday. We had the two kids taken away in handcuffs. Criminals that have been kicked out of school, that came on campus, and assaulted one of our students, and were only stopped from completing the battery by the intervention of another student, and the quick action of myself, and some of the campus security, scaring the two off.

Some people I really care about came very close, to getting seriously hurt, one of them, a female, vice principal.

Also, thanks for the advice on terrorist threatening. Since I've worked with DA's, and in their offices, I am well aware of what constitutes a terrorist threat, and that isn't it.

If you want the statute, and why it isn't a terrorist threat, I'll be happy to provide that, or, look it up on www.findlaw.com.

However, I was addressing a very real problem.

What if these young thugs, pretty sure very high on either crack, or speed, from their psychotic babbling,irrational actions, had had a weapon, and turned his gun on either the vp guiding him off campus, or, myself, in close proximity, and doing the same thing?

In other circumstances, I would be armed, and capable of protecting myself.

In this politically correct world, by trying to intervene, or protect, I put my life in jeopardy.

I'm not real happy today with the current state of affairs in our public schools.

I believe the only people teaching should be both attorneys, and police officers, concurrently.

Something about having your life threatened, from very close range, read under 5 feet, and being unsure of the weapon, or weapons, the person is carrying, by a reasonably strong, clearly crazy, high, or psycho person, is something that sort of affects your entire day.

Guess most of you wannabe big game hunters wouldn't have ever experience that, since you are using high powered rifles, at relatively long ranges, with no threat to life or limb.

Someone here once said I was wrong when I said a cape buffalo was the most dangerous animal on the planet. He said man was.

I may have to agree with him...

gs

[This message has been edited by Socrates (edited 03-08-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Socrates (edited 03-08-2002).]

The politiwhores have enabled these actions by carefully creating murderer enablement zones, assuring the would be killers large pools of victims. While this makes no sense to thinking people and many shake their heads, remember that there are some who will do anything for power, including offering up the lives of others for their god of power/control over others.

You should move before you become a statistic and just another offering to the politiwhores who will use your good name to futher their own craven games.

Thank you for explaining more clearly what happened.
I am glad you were able to prevent a crime even considering how hampered you are by the PC's.

[This message has been edited by Roger Rothschild (edited 03-08-2002).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roger Rothschild:
Socrates,
While you might find your post humorous in some way it is not at all.

Why don't you ask the forum administrator to delete it please.

---

DITTO, Funny like that = DEEP S*@T these days!!!

Not smart in today's environment.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roger Rothschild:
Socrates,
While you might find your post humorous in some way it is not at all.

Why don't you ask the forum administrator to delete it please.

---

Actually, the submitter can edit it to nothing by himself - [wise remark deleted].

That's called a Terrorist Threat,and in California that will land you either a year in jail or a $250,000 fine.If I were you I'd delete your post.

------------------
I'm out to wrong rights,depress the opressed,and generaly make an ass of myself!

It would certainly be an intresting situation, being brought into court, for breaking up a fight, then persuing the aggressors for blocks, assaulted, and battered by the perpatrators, describing them to the police, then having then picked up by the police, and, then, in such wonderful gentleman's eyes, being brought into court for a post, made under an alias, which did not specify, or imply, any particular person, for terrorist threatening??

The entire time this occured, I was just trying to match the force to the force the person assaulting us applied. It was fortunate for him it was only pushing us away from him, and pushing us, as he walked around.

What have you legal geniuses been smoking, or shooting, crack??

Or, are you just whipped, by the poltically correct media, and so afraid of expression on sensitive topics that you jump, like a bunch of lemmings, on one's actions that most would consider proper, measured, lawful, and beyond the call of duty?

Funny how you guys are so know it all about the Second amendment, and never bother to read the preceeding one?

As for your comments about loosing my job, by a one line, incorrect statement.

I think, somehow, in view of the events yesterday, that probably won't happen.

I have a case for assault, and battery, against the two thugs, that probably won't be filed.

Most DA's would never consider filing on such a statement, considering the circumstances, even if I had named the people, who I don't know, and don't really care about, and, if I had posted my name, instead of 'Socrates'.

I would also have a wonderful wrongful termination suit, that, having a Juris Doctrate Degree, and a fairly intimate
knowledge of the legal system, and with attorneys at close hand, I would persue to the ends of the earth, and the appellate courts.

Finally, I am at a point where I am considering a change of profession.

Currently I am at the mercy of any gang, or, in this case, whacked out punks, that come on the school grounds. It took a full 10-15 minutes of persuit, and radio communication before the police finally arrested these punks. If armed, they could have easily killed 20 or more people, in the blink of an eye.

My post was a brief way of blowing off steam, and an attempt to make light of a very serious, life threatening situation.

I'm so glad all of you are such perceptive, insightful, gentlemen, willing to keep an open mind, about the possible situations behind a posters brief attempt to blow off a bit of steam...

To say I am furious is to put it mildly. Not only at the situation, but at the above posts, by you wonderful, judgemental, mental giants.

Wonderful having you all here...

gs

[This message has been edited by Socrates (edited 03-08-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Socrates (edited 03-08-2002).]

Its a good thing they were caught but to me it was a stupid thing to run after them. Who knows what could have happened.

Intervening and being stupid are 2 different things. What the heck does 375 defense rounds have to do with this post? or am I missing something?

To be specific, we attempted to prevent, and did, only after being shoved, the two men from attacking the student, a second time.

Assault was done once, the men proceeded away from the area, we tried to put ourselves between them, and the student they were after.

The guy pushed us aside once, went after the student again, and then departed.

They departed from the the campus, and we followed, at much longer distance, providing a description, by radio, and, a course taken, so that the police could apprehend them.

A female vp walked the guy off campus, calming him down. I was in fear for her life, and was trailing at a distance where, if anything happened, I might have been able to intervene. However, from his prior actions, he felt threatened, and responded violently to men, so, I followed at a distance, blocked from his vision by his larger friend.

You are correct, that running after them would have been stupid, and that we did not do. We followed, at the limit of visual range, describing the streets they took, so the police could persue them.

When the guys turned, for the second assault, one of them has his hands in his pockets, and I was really wondering what he had in those pockets.

I have not heard from the police, and I guess I should ask, if they found weapons on them. However, considering the time they
left our visual range, and the time it took to pick them up, they could have easily ditched any weapons they brought with them.

I guess saying it's a good thing I didn't have a gun is the ignorance that happens when someone hasn't been assaulted by someone with a gun.

If you have a choice, between having a gun, when someone assaults you with one, and, not having a gun, trust me, having a gun is MUCH MORE DESIRABLE.

My comments were brought about, sitting here,
thinking about what I would do, if two such thugs, high on crack, broke into my house.

My choice of weapons would be the largest rifle caliber I own, and, hence, what would you use for a home defense load, in a 375 H&H?

Most factory loads would be far to penetrating for such work.

And, since I just recently bought reloading equipment, I was wondering what one might use for such stuff?

Thoughts would be something like a 200-220 grain bullet, at around 2400 fps.
Something soft, that expands, or blows up, creating shock, not penetration, on the order of average 375 H&H bullets.

gs

There are details in there that will cool down the ardent gunslinger yet provide you with information to protect your life.

For instance the best home defense weapon would be a shotgun loaded with birdshot. A heavy caliber like the .375 would not look good for you.

That area of the country is not really "The United States of America" There are few people there who have the courage to support your right to "Life, Liberty and the Pursut of happiness". I would move from there tonight!

Most of the cities in the USA have been abandoned to the loosers and parasitites. They are much like all of Europe that our ancestors worked so hard to leave.

I am glad you edited your post. Be well and move out.

I agree that the biggest caliber, most imposing looking weapon you can use, may very well prevent you from having to pull the trigger, and, since I would say a shotgun certainly fits that discription, your choice is a wise one.

However, I like to fire my guns, and don't really feel like dropping a bunch of money on a weapon I won't use, when, I have a perfectly acceptable one for the task, or another alternative.

Suffice to say, that such issues have come up, in discussion, with DA's, attorneys, and police officers, all of which I have worked with, interned with, or know.

My choice of defense weapons is based on the premise that, and reinforced by many, experienced lawmen, that the larger the caliber, the less likely you will have to pull the trigger.

And, if you do, the less likely you will have to pull it multiple times, multiplying your danger of hitting innocent people.

I'm in a position that might well justify a concealed carry permit, for my 'other' part time job. I also am in an excellent position to file paper work, and fight a court battle, since my legal expenses would most likely be zero, if such occured.

Therefore the threat of fighting a civil action, for harm, caused by a shooting in my house, in fear of my life, is one I would persue, since the normal financial fear of trial is not one that would apply to me, and therefore, a law firm trying to intimidate into settlement would not be successful.

That said, I would do everything to avoid such a situation, period.

I don't like killing many animals, much less people. However, certain people don't give you any choice...

As for giving up on our cities, I tend to agree. However, some of my work puts me in bad areas, serving process on people I wouldn't be around, if I had a choice.

And, on the otherhand, some of those so called bad people have wonderful kids, that deserve my absolute best in attempting to teach them, since, if we continue on our current path, we will end up with an unstable oligarchy.

I would like to be able to help them, without having to fear for my life, and others, and, I would like to be able to protect myself, in such situations.

Finally, I will be moving soon, hopefully to a part of the coast that has a conservative government, city wise.

Meanwhile, I find I have a lot to offer those students, and, I'm delighted to do everything I can in my power to teach them, hoping that I can improve their ability to
participate in this country.

By the way, on an overall analyisis of the area, and the general make up of the the mix of different races, I'm amazed that we have so little violence, and, that the kids get a long as well as they do.

I find a lot of great kids, with huge hearts,
that I would do everything possible to protect.
IN the above, I have great hope for the course of this great nation.

gs

------------------
I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

2. Use a handgun.

3. Consider the penetration of your .375.

Oh one more thing, you posted
"Guess most of you wannabe big game hunters wouldn't have ever experience that, since you are using high powered rifles, at relatively long ranges, with no threat to life or limb."
First you have no idea of were any of these people come from, what kind of history they have, and no way can you say that they have never been in that type of situation. That statement was out of place and didnt help the situation at all, it only offended more people.
Well I guess since YOU are a REAL BIG GAME HUNTER, you knew that all ready huh.

JAG

We are all going to sleep a little safer tonight knowing that you are protecting us. Thank goodness.

[This message has been edited by Zero Drift (edited 03-09-2002).]

A terrorist threat,in the state of California,is defined as "anything that can be interpeted as a threat of bodily harm to a person".In today's screwed up legal world,I could tell you to kiss my ass and you could have me arrested.

------------------
I'm out to wrong rights,depress the opressed,and generaly make an ass of myself!

It only matters what the arresting officer thinks.

Rob: The walkie talkies communicate with the front office and the on campus police officer. We did exactly as you suggested.

They are released, since the threatened kid would not press charges, and the battery, upon myself, and the other intervening person, wasn't sufficent for the police to file charges.

Only sanction might be suspension from their school...

In my brief time with a the DA's office, I saw 'kids' with 20 page rap sheets, from multiple states, finally put away for terrorist threatening. They took a gun, pointed it at a lady in a car in front of them, boxing her into a driveway, for a 1/2 hour. I believe that young man was 17, as was his partner.
That in a city very close to San Mateo, to the north of you.

As for not having your kid near me high school when I wrote the post.
I'm not really sure this is a path I want to persue for much longer. While you can do great good, it's very difficult, and, it's pretty much dealing with a different culture, that I feel much out of my depth with.

"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fact of the matter is that the post, in its original form, was made, by you. There is no justification for making comments like that in public. And yes this is public. As far as legal issues, I question your ability to reconize the exact laws surrounding "Terrorist threats". See you couldnt even reconize that the post you made was COMPLETLY OUT OF LINE! PERIOD! Remember, none of of here reading and replying to this are the ones that made the post. It was you. So dont try to defend yourself regarding reasons, laws or danger to yourself or ones around you. That is a matter to take up with the local law enforcment, not a forum like this. "

I agree, and apologize.

""Guess most of you wannabe big game hunters wouldn't have ever experience that, since you are using high powered rifles, at relatively long ranges, with no threat to life or limb."

I was actually hoping someone out there would respond that they had been in a game situation, at very close range and understand the emotional trauma that occurs.

"We are all going to sleep a little safer tonight knowing that you are protecting us. Thank goodness."

You certainly are NOT protected by me, in anyway, shape or form. I follow the laws of this wonderful state, and, I therefore am pretty much handcuffed in any such situation.

For a moment, before getting involved in this thing, I almost turned my back, and walked away, and let whatever was going to happen, happen.

Not sure I made the right decision.

"A terrorist threat,in the state of California,is defined as "anything that can be interpeted as a threat of bodily harm to a person".In today's screwed up legal world,I could tell you to kiss my ass and you could have me arrested.

I agree. Thankfully I have a bit more faith in our legal system, both in law enforcement officers, and DA's then you do, but you are correct.

I was also hoping to find some experienced commentary on such situations, from police officers familiar with such situations, in
ghetto area schools, and, hoped to evoke comments about their experiences, and techniques in dealing with such things.

I feel quite out of my depth in trying to deal with this all too politically correct world.

"It does not matter what any of us thinks a terroristic threat it.
It only matters what the arresting officer thinks.
"
Perhaps I have more faith in arresting officers then you gentleman do, since I was around officers, both in court, and in booking procedures.

I guess this was posted in the wrong place, and, I'm sorry if it caused any distress, by my macabre sense of humor, trying to make light of a serious situation.

s

Second I want to comment on something you said about a close encounter. The stress felt when in a close encounter with DG is very different the a close call with a person. The big difference being the inability to communicate with DG. Look at it this way, I could wrestle a guy down in an extreme situation. I would stand no chance against a buff or brown bear in the same situation. Yes there is extreme trauma in both, just different.
JAG

I feel you man, me and my friends had a fight with a bunch of gansta wannabes. My friend confronted one of them, and the coward tried to kick my friend in the nuts! He failed, and my other friend socked him in the jaw, knocking his ass down. The bastard's friend helped him up and the faggot pulled out a telescoping baton and hit my friend in the temple. Fuckers ran after that. And later my friends and I started carrying folding knives and brass knuckles and stuff because we heard that they had swords and stuff stashed in the trunk of their cars!! We roam the area trying to seek revenge for my friend, but those bitches kept running away from us . This was one of the most exciting times of my life, going around trying to find the fuckers who hit my friend. The cop at my school finally arrested one of them and the whole thing calmed down. But their friends snitched on my friend and he got caught with like 3 hand weapons on him. I've only been able to see my friend once since then and wrestling was sorry as hell without him.

I do agree, but do find the situation of feeling helpless similar.

I remember looking down in Hawaii one time and seeing a Tiger shark that looked like a
large submarine going by, swimming effortlessly. Awe, and a bit of adrenilin, but, he wasn't trying to eat me, or I would be dead.

Marineworld in San Mateo used to have a preformance arena that allowed you to sit two feet behind a stone wall, and watch as their elephants ran out, at high speed, in near silence, pivoted on a dime, and turned 90 degrees. It gave you a very clear idea of how helpless you were if they wanted to hurt you, and, the same program had a bunch of tigers, and two lions.
Same experience, except, I know, if they wanted to, they could have easily jumped out of the enclosure.
I remember going home, completely drained by my bodies reaction to the proximity, since I don't think you can convince your body that it's safe sometimes, when, it's quite clear, you are not...

I do know that feeling of hoplessness.

As for Cool Guy, I'm not sure if you are making fun of me, or not.

However, you have detailed some of the complexities in dealing with these situations.

Yes: the guy assaulted is afraid of the guys that came on campus.

The weird thing is no one knows what started this mess, and, it's two different schools, so it's not the usual you dissed me stuff.

Your point about weapons is well taken. This guy was bouncing around, as he pushed through us, doing all this with both hands in his pockets. I found this really strange, and I was wondering what he had to hold on to in his pockets, since those same hands had been out, when he attempted to fight with the kid he was picking on.
Perhaps it was a streetwise attempt to be able to say, that even though he shouldered through us, he could not possibly have struck us with his hands in his pockets.
Don't know.
I am going to have a sit down with the campus police officer, and get his take on these situations.
My guess is my lack of familiarity with the different gang mores, and lack of knowledge as to who the different players are, puts me at a severe disadvantage in dealing with the problems, and knowing when I am in danger, and when I am not in danger, and likewise for the vps. The scary part is they put themselves in harms way, and they did not know the kids names...

The weapons escalation is a very real problem, since we have no metal detectors, and many gang wannabes.

We also have great kids, and I try and spend most of my time around them.

Our wrestling coach is great, and pays for off season training with his own money.

I'm trying to do the same with the girls basketball team, and the boys, getting gym time is hard for them, and, then I try and help them with my 40 odd years of experience in the sport, and my referee's perspective.

Hell, so far I can't even get a key to get the girls basketballs out.

That's the rewarding work.

Perhaps thats' part of the anguish. You walk out of a gym, after having a really positive experience, seeing progress in bright kids, willing to learn, and that progress being made on the court, and, 100 feet away, you have two gang banger, drug guys freaking out, and going after each other.

The Cool Guy:
One other thing. The only way I would get involved, if I had to, would be to protect someone else, or, if I was attacked.

Even then, I might try to run away.

I have a bit more then just boxing experience, and, while that's not as current as it should be, it still is hanging around.

Plus, I'm on the larger size at my school, at 5'11" and 200, and, I lift 5 days a week.

I will say that most street fighters, at least in this generation, and these situations, don't have the discipline, or the expertise to deal with myself, or lets say our very large wrestling coach.

The martial arts, all of them, require great dedication, practice, and years of repetition. If you wrestled, I'm sure you have a very good idea of what you can do in a fight situation, and, how quickly you could take down someone in a street fight.

Most street punks don't have the discipline to do that, or, they would be successful in something else, and not street punks.

Your post raises my exact feelings. As your friend started carrying weapons to protect himself against others, and was then arrested, my situation would be little different.

gs

I wasn't making fun of you at all.

Can you get in trouble if you break someone's knee in self-defense? Because I do low round kicks on the bag a lot and leg presses to be able to do that and...

Once again, I'm not making fun of you at all pal, I know how those bastards are.

I can appreciate your feeling of fear though in the situation you were in. My biggest fear with these punk brat kids that we have today is that if I hit one I automatically go to jail if they are a juvenile. This applies even if the little sh_thead is throwing punches and connecting. I simply have to let him punch me until the police come along. You see we have lost our right to self defense. The problem is that most of you are such pussies that you fear to fight. Hell I never felt more alive than when I was in a good fight. I loved it.

Don't usually feel fear when hunting DG for one reason. I know I can blow that animals head off and not get locked up! If I punch a punk kick after he hit me I go to jail...period. Now why the hell is that. Oh when I was a teenager adults did not face prosecution for hitting punk ass kids.

What has happened to us Americans. We used to love to fight. Now we are scared of our own shadows and run away in fear if someone looks at us sideways.

Todd E

Paul K

You've said it all.

this little brush fire will burnout soon. they awalys do around here. stick around you'll see what i mean, this is an old forum it aint going nowhere.

Exactly. I have yet to see a one on one fight. It's always a gang, against one person...and I have walked away from many of them, leaving them to the security force.

This last one was just to close, and, one of the good kids put himself in harms way. By getting within site range, I forced the kid to get away from the kid he was wanting to attack. He also had a friend that was going to join in the attack. What really helped break it up was the one kid that did step in front of the guy, had about 5-6 friends to help him, and the young thug thought it was a good time to leave.

"Can you get in trouble if you break someone's knee in self-defense? Because I do low round kicks on the bag a lot and leg presses to be able to do that and... "
You can only respond, pretty much, with the threat of force in proximity, and, if you have a real belief that your person, or another person, is in grave bodily danger.

I was concerned the guy was going to pull a knife, and stab, or shoot, the VP, since he was completely incomprehensible, and, appeared to be quite high.

The Cool Guy: Where did you go to school?

I'm a dinosaur, and we had absolutly none of this crap when I was in high school. Fights, if we had one, and I can't even remember one, were always one on one, and no gangs existed. No one brought knives or guns on campus, and the police never came on campus.

Berkeley and Pittsburg, however, were different...Still, I had only one bad experience, in 8th grade, and we moved, right after that.

"When I was in high school practically everyone I knew carried a knife! There were guns too! This was sometime ago though. We used to constantly get into fights. I don't know how many time my nose has been broken, I was stabbed twice, hit by a car, can't remember any other crap right now. The schools today are much safer than they were back then! Hell you've got cops walking the halls don't ya."

Todd: Where did you go to school? Man, did I have a different school experience.
Police? We have one guy, and, when things are bad in town, he's not there.

Took 15 minutes to get the thugs picked up.
The protection is truly an illusion.

"I can appreciate your feeling of fear though in the situation you were in. My biggest fear with these punk brat kids that we have today is that if I hit one I automatically go to jail if they are a juvenile. This applies even if the little sh_thead is throwing punches and connecting. I simply have to let him punch me until the police come along. You see we have lost our right to self defense. The problem is that most of you are such pussies that you fear to fight. Hell I never felt more alive than when I was in a good fight. I loved it."

Yes. I don't know about the legal part. I guess if you teach school, you give up your rights to self-protection? The California Codes on Education are about 10 volumes thick, and, I think I had better start going through them.

I'm sure some genius legislator has put your opinion in law, and I just don't know it.

I know that as a private citizen I do have a right to self-defense, and, that regardless of statute, there are some protections that states cannot take away.

These are when your life is threatened.

I started taking martial arts in 1977, because a bunch of Santa Cruz surfers used to harass people, and assault you.

I always wondered how I would respond in a fight, now, I know.

"If I punch a punk kick after he hit me I go to jail...period. Now why the hell is that. Oh when I was a teenager adults did not face prosecution for hitting punk ass kids."

Have to check into this. I have yet to sit down with our counties assistant DA's to chat about this.

I'll try and get over, and find out how they view this, and the local PD does.

I'll try and get back to you this week, with either the local comments on the subject, or I know a combination police officer/attorney that's on vacation. He has the penal code memorized, so, he can at least give me an idea where I stand, or lay.

Assuming, and that's always a big risk, that both these guys are far younger then I am, and had really bad high school experiences,
perhaps these are issues that should be talked about.

I've certainly been completely insulated from high school, for 30 years.

Perhaps it's a very scary world, that has changed radically, and needs to be brought out in the open.

Judging from the very angry comments of the other posters here, perhaps the problem is more serious then my generation is aware, of, and, that the media is covering up how extreme the problem really is.

While I echo Paul K's feelings, that this is a touchy subject, and one we would rather not talk about, being aware of the problem is our best defense.

Being about his age, I was completely clueless going into this situation, and for some peculiar reason, I thought most of my time would be spent teaching... not dealing with discipline problems, daily or up to tri-daily fist fights, and whacked out crack heads, illegally on campus, then released the next day...

Odd that the law abiding citizens here all fear the police, and the DA's office, yet the thugs and criminals seem to be arrested and released with impunity, and a complete disregard for the results of police intervention.

s

I go to a public school in Denver. It's not all that bad now though since the morons got arrested. It's nice to have friends that has your back, and I'm lucky I have several.

To everyone who was brought down by my posts I apologize. Socrates is a lot older than me but we've experience some similiar events and I wanted to let him know that I know how sorry it is to have gansta wannabes in the school.

I'm just trying enjoying my senior year there
and everyone has been good to me so far.

Todd E,
Just because you can fight doesn't mean you should start picking fights. Especially when they will all jump you once you beat the hell out of their homie. That's why I try not to get in fights, but train 5 times a week in case there is a fight.

I think a true warrior never wants war but is always ready for it in case it starts.

"Tread softly but carry a big stick" remember?

I certainly had very little idea that so close to my well to do neighborhood, such a difference in schools existed.

I don't know if you ever had this experience, but, I was bowling at Mel's near Oakland, late at night, after league with a bunch of black friends.

I went to the bathroom, and three other black guys followed me in.

Turned out they had been drunk, thrown out of the alley, and thought I was friendly with the manager, who had kicked them out, but not called the police.

Anyway, I was going to be the guy to get beat up, or worse, to pay for the sins of the manager.

When they came in, and tried to stop me from leaving, I pushed through them, and wasn't really worried. I was in top shape, and, in a very confined area, knew that as long as no weapons were involved, I had the edge, because anything I hit was going to be bad guy. However, I yelled, and tried to get out, because I did not want to get involved in a fight. No point.

Then the lead guy pulled a walther ppk/s and hit me over the head with it. I sank down, and watched, to make sure that he did not point the barrel at me, since, I would have had to try to really hurt him, or kill him.

I was lucky, they decided I wasn't any fun, since I gave off the wrong sort of vibes, not scared, and their little fun wasn't working, so they went onto pick on someone a bit more normal, that would be more scared of them.

It's that escalation that is so dangerous.

Without a gun, in such a situation, most people would not have fared so well.
I still think I am only alive today, thanks to 18 years of martial arts and boxing.
Knowing how, and what to do in a situation gives you an edge, and, makes your response different then the one expected by the predator.

Another example of such wrong vibes changing a potential fight was a bar hoping trip.
Three of us, one giant, black, 240 pound 5th degree black belt, and another 6'3, 220 7th degree, went to San Francisco, to generally chase girls, and play. These guys liked going to off the wall bars, south of market.

You have to be a bit careful about which bars you pick, and, we sort of picked the wrong one. Kind of reminded me of the
bar in Eddie Murphy's first move about San Francisco, where it's an all white cowboy bar, and he walks in, a convict, but faking he's a cop, to get information. Nick Nolte was in the movie, too.

My friend was very loud, and was laughing very hard, as we played around, having a good time.

Some local guy, I think a Wannabe hell's angel, came up, and told him to shut up, or he would kick his ass.

My friend looked at him, and started laughing so hard, he nearly fell off his bar stool. He said, after laughing so hard,

"You want to pick a fight with me?"
Looked at the guy, and started laughing, rolling on the floor, just about again. At this point, we all started laughing, since we all had intimiate knowledge of how good this guy was, at the time, the world full contact karate heavyweight champion, as well.

For some reason, the guy decided perhaps, it would be a very good idea to leave my friend alone. So, no fight....

By the way, the we could, and did,legally carry an arsenal of martial arts weapons, on such little escapades, just in case.

Cool Guy, you are wise to train for the battle, but, hope you are never faced with a situation where you have to use it, and, make sure you know your semi-communist states' self-defense laws.

"Just because you can fight doesn't mean you should start picking fights. Especially when they will all jump you once you beat the hell out of their homie. That's why I try not to get in fights, but train 5 times a week in case there is a fight."

Exactly. Preperation can save your life, as it has mine.

However, once you have done the training, and have the ability, that ability carries with it the same consequences as using a deadly weapon.

While a bit off, ConAir is an excellent example of how courts' can find trained fighters to have used excessive force, in self-defense situations.

I guess that is the essence of the problems I had to deal with. Having to analyize the situation, not knowing the players, and unsure of at what point force might become neccessary, and if so, how much to use, and, against what sort of weapon would I be facing?

If not for the fact that the VP, female, was walking away with her arm over the psychotic thugs shoulder, I wouldn't have worried.

However, familiarity breeds contempt, and failure to recognize serious danger.

She was treating the incident like it was one of our schools' kids, that she knew, and these kids had been kicked out of the regular system, and, were obviously on drugs, and high, from a sort of high security, reject high school. Very dangerous in my opinion, and, the guys partner, much larger, was walking behind both of them, encouraging the guy to return, and fight the guy he came to fight in the first place. The woman was in a very dangerous situation, but, much like an early big game hunter in Africa, managed to be lucky, and dodge the proverbial bullet, without being aware that someone might even be shooting at her.

I trusted her instincts in the situation, and she proved correct, but, like dealing with wild animals, sometimes trusting your instincts can prove fatally wrong.

I now know to get as far from the perp as possible, since it's unlikely the police are going to prosecute, and, it's not worth getting hurt, trying to detain a fleeing criminal. The only reason I was walking near the guy was the insane actions of the female vp in this case.

I'm going to have to find local statutes on this, since, at least at common law, and, I think in the California code, you have a right to detain a fleeing criminal, so long as the force used is not excessive.

Again, then you open yourself up to training, since, as pointed out above, one punch might drop the guy from a proficent boxer, or martial artist, and because of training, and skill, that might be termed excessive force by the courts.

Forgotten in this discussion is the wonderful sobering affect having a large caliber pistol, rifle, or shotgun, point at you can have.

Many competent police officers have mentioned to me that in their neck of the woods, the cocking of a 45 caliber SAA revolver has stopped about 100% of their criminals in their tracks.

Apparently, at least around Texas, etc. criminals have figured out that anyone using one, has practiced enough, and is competent enough, so that it would be unwise to provoke them.

The other perspective is that anyone using a SAA is going to want to do great bodily harm with a single shot, and, is likely to hit what they are aiming at.

Likewise 45 ACP , or a 375 or bigger rifle should certainly have the same effect.
I know a shotgun does, as well.

The point being that MANY fatal, or near fatal encounters are avoided if the victim
is armed, and ready to defend themselves.

As I'm sure you are all aware, Florida, and many other states, have had a large drop in crime, when they allowed citizens concealed carry weapons permits.

While sociologists have many reasons why
the drop in crime, I'm pretty sure the thugs all moved to Kalifornia, where they have unarmed citizens, 48% conviction rates, and liberal judges and juries to protect them.

s

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I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

[This message has been edited by Socrates (edited 03-10-2002).]