What about adding in the .458WM as a choice?
This is after all the round that has killed more dangerous game than any other..
Seems like a pretty good credential to me..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Todd,
Despite all the evidence? what evidence would that be? I have seen no evidence that a big bullet close to the brain will turn a charge with any degree of certenty, I have read such and took it with a grain of salt. I know a direct hit will end the ruckus with a 9.3 or 375 and a good solid. I also believe in recoil recovery.

I am only giving my opinnion, based on what I have done, observed, and from many of the PH's that I have talked to over the years such as Harry Manners who used a 375 for most of his life of elephant hunting and others too many to name, and like this thread, they too are in two differnt camps. There is no evidence, only opinnion to the contrary either way..

At any rate I'm in the camp that believes a near miss is just a miss and missing the brain cannot be depended on to turn an elephant intent on a charge or even a Lion for that matter, not saying it hasn't happened, because it has on all DG animals for whatever reasho, but so has a shoulder shot with a 30-06, but it has also failed on more than a few ocassions..Nothing takes the place of a good solid in the right spot, and the size of the hole in the brain makes little diffence. I believe with any caliber including the .600 you must skim the brain to even have any effect, and that is not a guarentee.

To each his own and I'm, good with that, but I reserve the right will stand by my statement, at least for myself as it has worked for me so far, and I shoot a 375 or 416 much better than a 500.

It just can't be your way or the highway on this subject, and I'm Ok with you using a 600 it it suits you and you can handle it.

Ray,

The evidence you seek is there in history in spades, you are simply choosing to ignore it at this particular moment.

Not many years ago if anyone who argued that a 375H&H or 9.3x62 was enough gun you berated them. That was about the same time frame when you incessantly related how the 458wm was inadequate for buff and eles despite the incredibly successful history of the cartridge in the hands of those with extensive culling experience like Harland, Duckworth, Groebler, Thomson, et al, let alone sport hunters since the 50's on both. For you it was the Lott or nothing based on your "extensive" experience...

My, how times change...

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Todd,
Despite all the evidence? what evidence would that be? I have seen no evidence that a big bullet close to the brain will turn a charge with any degree of certenty, I have read such and took it with a grain of salt. I know a direct hit will end the ruckus with a 9.3 or 375 and a good solid. I also believe in recoil recovery.

I am only giving my opinnion, based on what I have done, observed, and from many of the PH's that I have talked to over the years such as Harry Manners who used a 375 for most of his life of elephant hunting and others too many to name, and like this thread, they too are in two differnt camps. There is no evidence, only opinnion to the contrary either way..

At any rate I'm in the camp that believes a near miss is just a miss and missing the brain cannot be depended on to turn an elephant intent on a charge or even a Lion for that matter, not saying it hasn't happened, because it has on all DG animals for whatever reasho, but so has a shoulder shot with a 30-06, but it has also failed on more than a few ocassions..Nothing takes the place of a good solid in the right spot, and the size of the hole in the brain makes little diffence. I believe with any caliber including the .600 you must skim the brain to even have any effect, and that is not a guarentee.

To each his own and I'm, good with that, but I reserve the right will stand by my statement, at least for myself as it has worked for me so far, and I shoot a 375 or 416 much better than a 500.

It just can't be your way or the highway on this subject, and I'm Ok with you using a 600 it it suits you and you can handle it.

Ray,

The evidence you seek is there in history in spades, you are simply choosing to ignore it at this particular moment.

Absolutely 100% Spot on!!

Not many years ago if anyone who argued that a 375H&H or 9.3x62 was enough gun you berated them. That was about the same time frame when you incessantly related how the 458wm was inadequate for buff and eles despite the incredibly successful history of the cartridge in the hands of those with extensive culling experience like Harland, Duckworth, Groebler, Thomson, et al, let alone sport hunters since the 50's on both. For you it was the Lott or nothing based on your "extensive" experience...

Again ... Spot on!!

My, how times change...

JPK

What evidence Ray?

Well, personally, of the eles I've taken, 4 were shot and dropped in their tracks where the brain was missed and the animal wasn't outright killed. Three of those attempted to regain their feet within seconds. Clearly they were stopped and dropped on the spot without being outright killed! Got video of 3 of those I can post once again if you'd like!

Take a look at Jines' charge where he and Buzz stopped that cow at close range. Both shooters missed the brain but they dropped her in her tracks. It takes a bit of study with the full length version of that video but the cow got back up and Buzz finished her off.

Just citing personal experiences here Ray. Not opinion, actual experience!!

You must be talking to different PHs than I am because all of the ele hunting PHs I've been afield with or spoken to all say you definitely CAN drop and stop an ele charge with a closely missed brain shot with a big bore. Want more evidence of that? Check out Buzz Charlton's first ele hunting video. He goes over it in detail. Interviews with Ian Nyschens, Richard Harlan, and Stan Cenegren as well. They all say the same thing!

I'll agree with you that hitting the CNS will definitely stop a charging elephant. I'll also stand on the statement that no one, and I do mean NO ONE, not you, not Saeed, not Buzz, not Ivan, can hit that ele brain every single time on a charging animal. The best insurance is to hit the CNS for sure. The next best thing is to come as close as possible to hitting the CNS with a big bore bullet! The first is 100%! The second depends on a combination of "how far" the miss is and how large the bullet is. The closer, the better. The larger the gun, the further the allowable miss can be. If you want to continue to deny that, have at it! It isn't about being my way or the highway Bud. It is what it is. Unless you're superman with a rifle, you'll miss that ele brain given enough attempts. In that event, the best insurance you can have is the biggest rifle you can handle under the circumstances. Again, I'll point out that very few, VERY FEW PHs that specialize in elephant hunting, especially up close in thick cover, use a 375 or 9.3 for backing up their clients! Must be a reason for that!

By the way, can we see some videos or even some photos of the eles and buffalo you've taken over the years? I'd like to see them personally. Sounds like some exciting hunts!! I'll be more than happy to post vids and photos of mine if you'd like!

What Todd said. Bigger is better and knock down is a reality with the large calibers. My statements, like Todd's and others, are also based upon personal experience with elephants.

Typical AR thread---

we went from whats a decent buff caliber to knock down on Pachyderms----


IMHO any decent 416/458 caliber has proven to be all you need on ANYTHING.

Special circumstances require special calibers-if I was only in thick brush or only backing up other hunters then I might go with a 50 cal---but it just isn't needed for everyday hunting.

Lets keep our definitions straight--

Hey guys, picky, picky, I did at one time use the biggest guns I could, had to know, but gimme a break, allow me to change my mind and I did that mostly based on my own experience in that I have yet to see any difference in the killing effect in a 500 and 400..I know many of you guys would use a bazooka if it was legal, I have not seen the need and yes I made up my own mind, I'm a republican, I can do that!

Your so called proof works both ways and you apparantly only digest what you want to believe..All your proof is doubted by some well known PHs such as Harry Mannors, Aagard, Selby, and I could name a lot more that have used and liked the 9.3x62 and 375 and almost any PH will give you a thumbs up on a 400..I recall one of our posters asking Johan Calitz if the 375 was an elephant caliber and this guy was sure what the answer was going to be..Johan's reply was "The 375 is an excellent caliber if the client can shoot". Where have you guys been? in la-la land...Even Ganyana who posts here has used the 9.3x62, and it reportedly was his favorite backup rifle at one time, maybe it still it, he liked the recoil recovery that you said was not an issue??..I am sure that many an elephant has bent the knee to the boom of his 9.3x62. If you guys think a 500 will turn an elephant with a close to the brain shot, then I suggest you learn to shoot them IN the brain. Just kidding, but the point is nothing makes up for accurate careful shooting in the first place with the first shot.

I have no issue with anyone that can shoot the big guns without flinching, that is about 50% of those who claim they can, The 500s will certainly stop big animals but so will a .416 Rigby or 404 Jefferys..I have shot most of my DG with a 404 and 416, but as I age the 375 and 9.3x62 has become a better choice for me..I just don't see the need for anything bigger. I have heard many a PH moan when his hunter pulled out a 15 pound 577 and mutter he can't carry that gun all day in the heat then hold it to shoot..

I just think your over the top on this subject. I think one should use whatever caliber he is comfortable with and certainly what he can shoot without flinching..I intend to do that..Don't think one needs to be scolded for his opinnion!

Now that the thread is back on cape buffalo and not elephants--

It dawns on me that I had a 'near-brain-experience' with a buffalo two years ago. I shot a standing buffalo in the face at 70-72 yards. The bullet was between the buffalo's left eye and nose line but under the eye level by an inch or two. The bullet went under the brain and along the neck muscles. It was recovered in the front shoulder area. The buffalo dropped on the spot but was not dead. He got a shot behind the ear before he could get up and do whatever he was thinking of doing.

The calibre and bullet for the above buffalo have a bit to say on both sides of the argument. The calibre was a light and trusty 416 Rigby, if a 10.5 lb., scoped, CZ rifle qualifies as 'light'. The bullet was a 350 grain TSX .416". However, the muzzle velocity of that bullet was around 2825 fps (and sometimes clocked a little bit more [one clocked over 3000, which caused me to doubt the chronograph. I can't explain that single occurrence.]). That 2825 fps puts muzzle energy at 6200 ftlbs and up around the evergy levels of factory 505 Gibbs and 500 Jeffrey. Medium-big and relatively very-fast had a stunning effect with a missed-brain. The steaks were absolutely excellent. Nothing like them, washed down with warm beer.

The question that cannot be answered, of course, is at what level the stunning effect on the buffalo's movements would have been lost, or lost sooner, if at all? Would a .416 at 2400 fps muzzle velocity have done the same? How about a 338 at 2825fps? How about a 30 cal or 270? A 243? A 375 at 2500fps? We don't get to do a re-do in order to find out. I was just very glad to have the 416 in my hands for the shot, kneeling and using a tree branch for a rest. I was a little afraid of going over the brain, which probably accounts for shooting under it.

Here is a picture of that bullet, after doing its duty:

One can notice the smashing effect of the high velocity. The petals, of course, were blown off but plentry of weight remained for good penetration and apparent shock waves in the animal. The case is shown in order to show the normal primer. 215Fed gold match magnum primer. (Never had a flat primer with a 416. Primers with 270 and 338, yes, and those loads would not be used.)

The game scout, retiring after that hunt, was very happy.


My own view is that a person needs to be able to shoot the rifle well and be confident in the rifle being used. Shooter confidence is part of the equation. There is not room for doubt when pulling the trigger. The brain needs to be saying 'Yes!' (We won't discuss those times when a brain is saying 'Maybe.') At the moment I'm working on a 500 upgrade to a hot-loaded 416 Rigby for buffalo and hope to get it to Africa "one of these days." But I listen carefully to Ray, respecting both his experience and his age. What will I want to shoot in my 70's? I can't know yet. Some with more disability than Ray's age have hunted buffalo with special-permit 30-06's because of shoulder injuries and operations. And the questions can continue, just how much flexibility and rocking ability will we have in our 80's? At the moment I'm a 6000-ftlbs-and-over hunter. But I would not want to close my options on lighter rifles, someday. My 5'6" 110 lb. wife may show me the way. We all need to practice and be confident with any tool being used.

Great post! Thank you

That is a good post, and its hard to say because something like that is a crap shoot, win some, lose some..

I recall shooting a wounded buffalo looking at me with a Woodleigh soft in my 450-400-3" the bullet hit the jaw (teeth), the teeth cut it in half and half went out the jaw and back into the shoulder and down into the lungs, the other half went down his gullet..He was PO I assure and charged, the PHs gun jammed and the client froze, My second shot brained him at near point blank and he pushed the client back and down, but no harm was down..The point is who knows how the cards will fall, it was hard to hold my fire with only one shot, but I knew it had to be close to be sure of a instant kill and didn't have time to reload my fired barrel.

I have a film of two buffalo being hammered by a 470 and 500 N.E. with no effect..The first shot was a wounding shot and the adrenaline set in...By the same token I have seen an elephant killed cleanly with a 7x57 heart shot, and a Cape buffalo killed with very light calibers..I have watch elephants being culled with H&K .308 and killed cleanly..I determined a 3 shot auto blast from a .308 is deadly as hell on anything.

Again I have to say nothing can replace good shooting, and I don't want to depend on a big caliber to save my bacon because I missed the proper shot, it can but not every time is my point, and in fact I can't do that anyway as I have a hand injury that makes for big time flinches these days, so I'm at my limit with a .375 or 9.3x62 and I'm good with that..

If the hunter is young, strong, likes a 500 or 600 NE or whatever, and can pack a 13 or better pound gun all day long in the African heat, then hold it steady enough to place his shot at the end of the long walk, then I can only respect a guy like that. I can't and most cannot. Its been my experience that most start out with big bores but as the pounding gets worst and they age then they back off to a reasonable caliber like a 40...

It just depends is my best observation! but its fun conversation.

Based on my extensive reading of Ray's extensive writing (and a little hunting of my own), I'd say a 404 or 416 is a good compromise for most buffalo hunters. Every cartridge has had its share of one-shot kills and every cartridge has had its share of running-and-gunning stories.

Forrest, you're prowess with the written word continues to amaze me, even after all these years

i just sold my 577 nitro single shot and will be using the money for a 600 ok from ahr using a left handed granit mt arms action,

so id have to say for buff ill be using my 505 and 600 ok

Overkill indeed.

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:
Overkill indeed.

Overkill? Maybe
Effective? Definitely

"Go big, or go home"

Geez, I hope to hell my puny 416 Rem will get it done.

quote:

Originally posted by Boxhead:
Geez, I hope to hell my puny 416 Rem will get it done.

Well, we all wish you well and hope it gets it done, too.

The truth is that all shoulder held hunting rounds are puny. Some are punier than others, but none are so big that one only needs to shoot to center of mass. That could lead to some very dangerous, unpleasant, follow-up situations. Unfortunately, we tend to think in relative terms and recognize that the TRex or Overkill are at the top of our power curves. For me, they only become safe and good hunting rounds when the shooter thinks of them as puny.

So yes, the 416Rem is puny on buffalo and the sooner that one embraces that the sooner the 416Rem will provide splendid results. I might even want a 416 Ruger myself in another decade.

Members of my family have shot 11 buffaloe with the 338. All one shot kills but one. The ph collapsed that one on the spot with a 375. Of course we can all shoot....

Forrest,
I will endevor to to be less extensive in the future, I just get into these campfire conversations with gusto! and sometimes

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
The ph collapsed that one on the spot with a 375.

Was Mr Sullivan the ph in question?

I voted for the biggest rifle I own, the .458 Lott.

I couldn't vote as my two largest calibers aren't listed. If it were, If they were, I'd select my 12.7x68 Magnum (aka: .500/338 Lapua).

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
I couldn't vote as my two largest calibers aren't listed. If it were, If they were, I'd select my 12.7x68 Magnum (aka: .500/338 Lapua).

Excellent choice!
It will fit in a Winchester M70 or a standard Mauser 98, and it beats the ballistics of the fabled .500 MDM,
even with barrels cut to same length.
Just takes some attention to proper bottom metal to do that, i.e., Wiebe or Sunny Hill,
if you want a four-shooter.
Engrave the barrel "12.7x68/.500/.338 Lapua Magnum" and use the best of best Lapua brass.
No worries.

Also, the reamer print on that one has been "released to the gun trade," no secrets.

I remain torn, between 404 Jeffery bolt action and 500 NE DR,
and the 12.7x68/.500/.338LM fits right in there.
Gotta have a backup or two besides the primary ... one rifle is never enough.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
Based on my extensive reading of Ray's extensive writing (and a little hunting of my own), I'd say a 404 or 416 is a good compromise for most buffalo hunters. Every cartridge has had its share of one-shot kills and every cartridge has had its share of running-and-gunning stories.

ForrestB your statement is no more so well demonstrated as in AR79's post of his buffalo hunt report over in Hunting Reports. I'm sure had the reverse happened we would have had this held up as how the big double has it all over anything else. Strangely quite me thinks and yer, yer, yer, bull/cow likely different ranges etc, etc but ForrestB has nailed it above

quote:

Originally posted by Sevens:
I'm voting 375 as the recoil of anything larger effects my shooting (that's fancy for "it hurts and I flinch"). Not exactly a stopper, but a 416 or 458 poorly placed is going to be far less effective than a well placed 375.

Gentlemen her is a man who recognizes his limitations!

I a case like that, one is smart to shoot what he shots best.
.................................................................

However a close hit with a 500NE,416, or 458 will do better than you think without being dead center of the CNS.

........................................................................... ........

myself would use either my 460wby, The cals listed will do the job, just personal preference for all, so no right or wrong from what i have read on this thread. Australian buff, i have used the 9.3 and 338wm with great effect, but for african buff, the 45's have the edge for me anyway

quote:

I remain torn, between 404 Jeffery bolt action and 500 NE DR,
and the 12.7x68/.500/.338LM fits right in there.

really, RIP,
if you were going after a wounded buff and had a rack with a 404, 500NE, and 49-10 (12.7x68) you'd honestly consider the 404 equal or better?

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
Members of my family have shot 11 buffaloe with the 338. All one shot kills but one. The ph collapsed that one on the spot with a 375. Of course we can all shoot....

I just have one question! Where in Africa is it legal to take cape buffalo with a .338?

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
Members of my family have shot 11 buffaloe with the 338. All one shot kills but one. The ph collapsed that one on the spot with a 375. Of course we can all shoot....

I just have one question! Where in Africa is it legal to take cape buffalo with a .338?

"Of course we can all shoot..." will go nicely on the grave marker after the Buffalo stomps you to death or on the police report for using an illegal caliber.

quote:

I just have one question! Where in Africa is it legal to take cape buffalo with a .338?

Mac, "Legal" and "Africa" rarely appear in the same sentence :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

I just have one question! Where in Africa is it legal to take cape buffalo with a .338?

Mac, "Legal" and "Africa" rarely appear in the same sentence :-)

....................

I have several rifles that i use on a daily basis in the swamps of Corientes hunting water buffalo and never experienced any trouble they are a mauser 458winchester ,a cz375hyh ,a 416rigby of one of my guides.I used ganyanas 9,3x62 with great succes too ,i believe this type of calibers if you use an adecuated bullet can do the work perfectly -
Bear in mind that i see many calibers working on buffalo permanently and i dont noted a great difference between them and bigger calibers .

You guys have me so confused, I think I'll just take a .243 and call it good!

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
You guys have me so confused, I think I'll just take a .243 and call it good!

All that tells me is you know something about the effectiveness of a properly loaded .243 that most don't!

.....................................................................