quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I think what Todd is trying to say is that a .450 NE is a fine choice for those that are unable to handle a .500 NE.

I chose the Lott, because that's what I have.

I use a Lott but shot placement is the key with any caliber chosen.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I think what Todd is trying to say is that a .450 NE is a fine choice for those that are unable to handle a .500 NE.

Todds just compensating because he drove planes instead of tanks--







In reality he knows its all about hitting the target--

I picked 416 Rigby as that is what I have & will be taking to Zim later in the year.

If you had 450/400 on that list, I would have picked it as I have shot one & shot it well.

Quick accurate shot placement is vital and so is bullet choice.

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Russell:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I think what Todd is trying to say is that a .450 NE is a fine choice for those that are unable to handle a .500 NE.

Todds just compensating because he drove planes instead of tanks--







In reality he knows its all about hitting the target --

By "target" you are referring to "tanks", right! I hit a whole bunch of those things!!

Well Dudes and Dudesses,

Chuck's poll is interesting after 124 votes.

The entry level 375 remains at 3%
The .41-.42 level remains strong at 26%
The .45-.47 level has strengthened slightly at 33%
And the .50 level remains strong at 39%
- _ -- _ -- _ -- X
- _ -- _ -- _ -- X
- _ -- _ -- X -- X
- _ -- _ -- X -- X
- _ -- X -- X -- X
- _ -- X -- X -- X
- _ -- X -- X -- X
- _ -- X -- X -- X
- _ -- X -- X -- X
- _ -- X -- X -- X
- _ -- X -- X -- X
- _ -- X -- X -- X
- X -- X -- X -- X

-37 - 41 - 45 - 50

The shape of the curve is interesting, it moves up distinctly after .37 and then in a fairly straight upward line from .41 to .50.

A comment bears repeating from common hunting wisdom:

"Don't start something that you are not prepared to finish."

So if one wants over 40 and ascending for finishing the job, is it ethical for the same persons to start with a 375?

Yes,
in the right circumstances.

posted 24 March 2014 16:53 Hide Post



quote:

DSC


I've been a "one rifle" kind of guy as long as I can remember. For a long time it was a 60s vintage BDL in 270 for everything from varmints, javelina, deer, elk, black bears and finishing off a couple of grizzlies (smaller Rocky Mountain variety)in the late 60s early 70s. I gave my 270 to my son (that was hard but a wonderful thing) and now my 500 Jeffery is it. I bought a used Mark V in 270 Weatherby a couple of years ago but I don't use it. So far, I've gotten one cow elk, one mule deer, and one feral hog at 8 feet with the 500 Jeffery. I plan to hunt elk, black bear and maybe some jack rabbits and prairie dogs with it this year. I figure if I can hit a running jack rabbit at 30 yards and a praire dog at 200 yards without any pressure (except my sons watching me) I should be able to hit a cape buffalo under pressure. We'll see ...

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I picked the 500NE because the 450NE was not listed and like the 470, all the 500 is: a 450NE with less penetration and more recoil..

Jorge, not really sure where you got off on that line of thinking but I can assure you it isn't correct. I know there is some commentary along the lines of less resistance with the smaller diameter bullet, but I think you'll find the 500NE with it's heavier bullet to produce enough momentum to overcome any advantage the .458 cal would have over the .510 in terms of penetration. Quite the contrary, the 500NE's additional diameter would be much appreciated in this event! No doubt the 450NE is a fine chambering ... but it's no 500NE!

"Less resistance with the smaller diameter bullet" is called SECTIONAL DENSITY.

Wonder if Michael can produce some penetration results for us?

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I picked the 500NE because the 450NE was not listed and like the 470, all the 500 is: a 450NE with less penetration and more recoil..

Jorge, not really sure where you got off on that line of thinking but I can assure you it isn't correct. I know there is some commentary along the lines of less resistance with the smaller diameter bullet, but I think you'll find the 500NE with it's heavier bullet to produce enough momentum to overcome any advantage the .458 cal would have over the .510 in terms of penetration. Quite the contrary, the 500NE's additional diameter would be much appreciated in this event! No doubt the 450NE is a fine chambering ... but it's no 500NE!

" Less resistance with the smaller diameter bullet" is called SECTIONAL DENSITY.

Wonder if Michael can produce some penetration results for us?

Not really Jorge. There is more to it than that. You'll find sectional density of the 480gr .458 and 570gr .510 to be very similar. I actually asked Michael to do a bit of digging on this very subject when I saw you post that statement again. As you know, he and Sam didn't test the 450NE per say, but they did do quite a bit of testing with the .458 caliber bullets. The 450NE's velocity being very similar to what a 458WM will produce with appropriate powders, that being around 2100fps (nominal 2150fps). Realize saying a 450NE is superior to a 500NE is like saying a 458WM is superior to a 500NE since the the 450NE and 458WM shoot the exact same bullet at the same nominal velocity.

Anyway Jorge, give me a few here and I'll transfer some of Michael's photos over to photobucket and get them posted for comparrison. From what I remember, penetration was very similar between the two. But as Michael reminded me, of the 8 or 10 parameters of penetration he has developed, caliber has never been one of the determining factors.

Jorge,

First the 480gr CEB in .458. Sectional Density is .321 IIRC. Of course, Michael's velocity is a bit high for the 450NE, maybe by 100fps or so but you see that he got 63" penetration.


Next, the 570gr CEB in .510, fired from the .510 Wells, at 2300fps. Certainly too high for the 500NE but at 2323 it gave 66" penetration. SC on this bullet IIRC was .314.



Then another 570gr bullet fired from the Wells at a very similar velocity to what a 500NE will produce ... roughly 2100fps. This gave 56" penetration.



I'm sure there is some better data somewhere in Michael's work concerning closer velocities to what you'll really find with the 450NE and 500NE, but this is what he was able to find on short notice. That being said, you've got 63" with the 458 being a little over nominal velocity and 56" with the .510 being a little under nominal velocity. Interpolation would suggest, as I did originally, that penetration between the two calibers will be very similar but with the 500NE having a larger frontal area and producing more energy/momentum.

Again, no flies on the 450NE at all, but it's still not a 500NE.

Cheers my friend!

A lot of other factors come into play with this, with everything 100% equal down the line, the other 7 factors, then SD takes over....... With the #13s, and the new North Forks, even slight increases or decreases in velocity make a difference with this nose profile, as you see. I have not found "caliber" to actually be a factor, what one must remember, if you are a "Bubble Head" and believe that in aqueous material that the FN bullet rides the bubble (I am a Bubble Head)... Then each of these develop and ride the bubble that is relative to its caliber, erasing in my opinion the so called "resistance", most all of these will penetrate 60-65 inches + or - a bit, with close SDs running from .285-.325 or so and velocities from 2200-2300. Not going to be a lot of difference in this range with these bullets. The #13s have 67% meplat, the North Forks 68% meplat, and really from 416-.510 I have not seen caliber as a player.

I think the two deepest divers in our big bores have been 416 #13 400s at over 2400 fps to 76 inches I believe, and the other a #13 .620 caliber 900 gr at 2150 to 76 inches...... Both very close SD, bullets same, velocity big difference, and if caliber and resistance was a factor, then the 400 416 would have went much further, as it also had the velocity advantage as well, but it did not.

M

I'm satisfied with a 9.3x62 and up..I have used the 9.3x62 on buffalo and hippo enough to believe it a fine buffalo caliber as is the 375 H&H, and I would not hesitate to use either on elephant...

Mostly I have used the 404 and 416 Rem. on DG, and find them satisfactory..I have never seen the need for more power.

After a hand injury some 18 months ago in a roping incident, I can't take a wack on the middle finger from the trigger guard, so all my DG hunting will be with either a 9.3x62 or 375 in the future, and I have no reservation about that decision.

I only shot 585HE with 750gr CEB at bundle of wood backstop I used,
a couple times, but the 4.5 ft of hardwood hardly slowed it down.
Good hairy load going 2700. Couldn't stop them zipping through.

But does this penetration convert into the great knockdown power
potential our cartridge has, if compared to good expanding
bullets, that dump all the energy into the buffalo.
As I said may only get one shot.ED

quote:

if compared to good expanding
bullets, that dump all the energy into the buffalo.
As I said may only get one shot.ED

Ed..... The matching NonCon #13 HP, I think is 700 grs, at 2700 + this would turn buffalo inside out, skin them, before they hit the dirt........ Lets just say, any hit in the front end, there would be zero chance of survival..... HEH..........

That would be your first choice on the first shot................ Not the solid.........

The video did not show that the 600OK solid also deformed and became even wider, greatly increasing its drag and lowering its sectional density. The test needed to be redone with a non-deforming bullet in .620". Apples need to be compared with apples.

My pick is the 416 Rem via a slightly tweaked M70. It's hunt will come when I tire and grow too old of those in BC and Alaska.

Todd: All in good fun my friend, I was just being contrarian. I will add though when I first started shopping for a double, the 500 was high on my list, but after listening to the likes of Ivan, Graham Wright, Taylor, Boddington and others I went with the 450NE. One of my friends here in Jacksonville ordered a 500 from Ken and I got to shoot it and there was little if any difference in recoil for me and I shot it from the bench.

Anyway, enjoyed the bantering...

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Todd: All in good fun my friend, I was just being contrarian. I will add though when I first started shopping for a double, the 500 was high on my list, but after listening to the likes of Ivan, Graham Wright, Taylor, Boddington and others I went with the 450NE. One of my friends here in Jacksonville ordered a 500 from Ken and I got to shoot it and there was little if any difference in recoil for me and I shot it from the bench.

Anyway, enjoyed the bantering...

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
The video did not show that the 600OK solid also deformed and became even wider, greatly increasing its drag and lowering its sectional density. The test needed to be redone with a non-deforming bullet in .620". Apples need to be compared with apples.

good point

Shootaway,

Even though titled differently both video links point to the same solid bullet video.

I am confused.

Here is the follow up video that mentions the bulging solid of the 600OK:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHd_W1G-adg

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:
Shootaway,

Even though titled differently both video links point to the same solid bullet video.

I am confused.

I fixed it-thanks for letting me know.

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:
Shootaway,

Even though titled differently both video links point to the same solid bullet video.

I am confused.

FYI Tanks,

You'll continue to remain confused as long as you listen to shootacow!

IMO,if the diameter of the bullet increases so should the energy in order to meet the resistance.
I believe with the same energy a bullet with a larger diameter will penetrate less.
It is obviously important that a bullet should not deform.From watching that video I would not use a Woodleigh solid in that caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
IMO,if the diameter of the bullet increases so should the energy in order to meet the resistance.
I believe with the same energy a bullet with a larger diameter will penetrate less.
It is obviously important that a bullet should not deform.From watching that video I would not use a Woodleigh solid in that caliber.

A 500 and a 600 shooting bullets at the same velocity and with the same Sectional Density (weight/frontal area) will produce quite different energies. The energy difference will approximately compensate for the different frontal areas.

The bullets should penetrate approximately the same as long as the bullet shapes are equal and do not deform and the stability is equal. Obviously, if one of the bullets deforms, the comparison of calibre is invalid.

yes,i agree

I honestly think a proper shot with a 9.3x62, 375 or 416 will kill any animal on earth, charging or not. They have always worked for me and my favorite over the years was the 404, perhape out of nostalgia to a degree but it certain perfomed with honors and I can say the same for the 9.3x62 and .375 H&H...

I fully believe that an improper shot with the above or any caliber mentioned in this thread so far will not stop a adrnaline filled buff Hippo, Rhino or elephant, those that put all their faith in caliber and not in their ability to shoot well are in deep do-do when the time comes..I recall the first elephant shot with a 700 N.E. ran off and was never recovered..I have on film a buff shot 13 times with a 470 and 500 double that did not expire until the shot him in the brain at 5 yards, on that same hunt one buff took 9 shots with the 500.. it looks like to me they weighted the first one down with lead and he just stood straddle legged for a coup de grace. The second one was in the cane and they just kept shooting him and he kept bellowing, the first shot broke that ones back....buff, Rhino and elephant are mighty tough when the first shot doesn't count, and gallon of adrenaline flow...I have seen deer, elk, moose and plainsgame take a lot of hits when the first one didn't get into the right spot..

If you feel safer with your .600 and can shoot it then good on ya..if you can't shoot it then maybe a 9.3x62 would be a better choice for you, and recoil recovery is much quicker.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I honestly think a proper shot with a 9.3x62, 375 or 416 will kill any animal on earth, charging or not. They have always worked for me and my favorite over the years was the 404, perhape out of nostalgia to a degree but it certain perfomed with honors and I can say the same for the 9.3x62 and .375 H&H...

I fully believe that an improper shot with the above or any caliber mentioned in this thread so far will not stop a adrnaline filled buff Hippo, Rhino or elephant, those that put all their faith in caliber and not in their ability to shoot well are in deep do-do when the time comes ..I recall the first elephant shot with a 700 N.E. ran off and was never recovered..I have on film a buff shot 13 times with a 470 and 500 double that did not expire until the shot him in the brain at 5 yards, on that same hunt one buff took 9 shots with the 500.. it looks like to me they weighted the first one down with lead and he just stood straddle legged for a coup de grace. The second one was in the cane and they just kept shooting him and he kept bellowing, the first shot broke that ones back....buff, Rhino and elephant are mighty tough when the first shot doesn't count, and gallon of adrenaline flow...I have seen deer, elk, moose and plainsgame take a lot of hits when the first one didn't get into the right spot..

If you feel safer with your .600 and can shoot it then good on ya..if you can't shoot it then maybe a 9.3x62 would be a better choice for you, and recoil recovery is much quicker.

So Ray, despite all evidence to the contrary, you're taking the position that an elephant cannot be stopped or turned with a closely missed brain shot? Are you taking the position that only an actual CNS hit on an elephant will stop them? I'll agree with you for buffalo, but take strong exception to that statement where elephant are concerned. And with that closely missed brain shot on elephant, caliber most definitely DOES make a difference, increasing the allowable "miss" distance. One will never be able to miss by 12" or so, but relatively speaking, you can miss the brain a bit further and still affect a STOP with a 500NE than with a .375!

We hashed this out quite throughly just recently. Several posts of videos showing exactly that. Anyone claiming they can hit the brain on a charging elephant every single time has to have powers approximating that of Superman as guys like Ivan Carter and Buzz Charlton can't hit the brain EVERY SINGLE TIME, but you also don't see them using a 9.3 or .375 as their "stopping rifles"!

As to that last statement concerning "recoil recovery" time, you know I disagree with that as well. I've posted videos specifically refuting it several times and can do so again if necessary. Recoil and recovery happens in mere fractions of seconds unless one isn't holding the weapon properly to begin with. There is NO discernible difference in the time it takes to get back on target between a 500NE and a 416 Rigby. Oh, hell, here is a video showing just that ... a 500NE vs 416 Rigby. After watching this, are you sticking to the statement that recovery time between shots is excessive with the larger weapon? Especially considering the time of recovery between my third and fourth shots?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SIaSDCCEN8

Is this some kind of trick question?

.500 A-Square, first and foremost.

Lightning bolts finish second.

Given the circumstances I would opt for the .500 NE or even better, the .577 NE..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I honestly think a proper shot with a 9.3x62, 375 or 416 will kill any animal on earth, charging or not. They have always worked for me and my favorite over the years was the 404, perhape out of nostalgia to a degree but it certain perfomed with honors and I can say the same for the 9.3x62 and .375 H&H...

I fully believe that an improper shot with the above or any caliber mentioned in this thread so far will not stop a adrnaline filled buff Hippo, Rhino or elephant, those that put all their faith in caliber and not in their ability to shoot well are in deep do-do when the time comes..I recall the first elephant shot with a 700 N.E. ran off and was never recovered..I have on film a buff shot 13 times with a 470 and 500 double that did not expire until the shot him in the brain at 5 yards, on that same hunt one buff took 9 shots with the 500.. it looks like to me they weighted the first one down with lead and he just stood straddle legged for a coup de grace. The second one was in the cane and they just kept shooting him and he kept bellowing, the first shot broke that ones back....buff, Rhino and elephant are mighty tough when the first shot doesn't count, and gallon of adrenaline flow...I have seen deer, elk, moose and plainsgame take a lot of hits when the first one didn't get into the right spot..

If you feel safer with your .600 and can shoot it then good on ya..if you can't shoot it then maybe a 9.3x62 would be a better choice for you, and recoil recovery is much quicker.

Ray has the heart of a hunter. First is the hunt, second is the choice of tool. Sitting behind a computer screen we often get that backwards.

I appreciate Ray's experience with the 9.3. I've never had one or used one but I have a pretty good idea of what they are like having used a 338 in a lot of situations, including with the old 275 and 300 grain slugs. This note is only to reinforce a particular reality: in some countries a license can only be written for dangerous game or buffalo with a .375" bore or larger. Yes, in the bush a lot of people are willing to look the other way, and yes, even in the licensing offices many an Officer will overlook the obvious. But that doesn't change the law and if anything ever went far far south, like having a team member wounded or killed, I would not want to be holding an illegal weapon.

There is a very inexpensive compromise. My wife picked up a used 375 Ruger lefty at a very reasonable price. We plan to load and test it at a relatively mild load: 250-grain bullets at 2600fps. That is about 3750 ftlbs and puts it squarely, smack dab in the camp of the 9.3x62 for hunting characteristics. It is legal for Tanzania but would need to be loaded to 2700fps for Zimbabwe. We can live with that. We are also going to test some GSC 200-grain .375" bullets. I would rate those as too light for buffalo, but even there, if a broadside shot presented itself, they would certainly get the job done if constrained to an ideal shot. Furthermore, the 200-grain bullet at 2600 fps would feel about like a 30-06, but I can't imagine a hartebeest or an elk that could go very far with one of them in the boiler room. Shots should be limited to about 275 yards, which covers well over 90% of my African experience. Of course, we don't do ele . . .

PS: we are also going to test some CEB 'extended range' raptor bullets, 235-grain. Thanks to the testing by Michael, I would not hesitate to use one on a buffalo. The blunt-faced core would penetrate from any reasonable first-shot angle. My wife would only be hunting with a partner along in any case. And since she is relatively new to hunting she would probably not be 'point-person' on a buff followup.

quote:

PS: we are also going to test some CEB 'extended range' raptor bullets, 235-grain. Thanks to the testing by Michael, I would not hesitate to use one on a buffalo. The blunt-faced core would penetrate from any reasonable first-shot angle. My wife would only be hunting with a partner along in any case. And since she is relatively new to hunting she would probably not be 'point-person' on a buff followup.

Tanz...... Concur on all counts... Yes, I would also use that 235 NonCon on buffalo.... And most important, 9.3/375 make a really nice little girly gun for the girls.... I have always said so..........

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I honestly think a proper shot with a 9.3x62, 375 or 416 will kill any animal on earth, charging or not. They have always worked for me and my favorite over the years was the 404, perhape out of nostalgia to a degree but it certain perfomed with honors and I can say the same for the 9.3x62 and .375 H&H...

I fully believe that an improper shot with the above or any caliber mentioned in this thread so far will not stop a adrnaline filled buff Hippo, Rhino or elephant, those that put all their faith in caliber and not in their ability to shoot well are in deep do-do when the time comes ..I recall the first elephant shot with a 700 N.E. ran off and was never recovered..I have on film a buff shot 13 times with a 470 and 500 double that did not expire until the shot him in the brain at 5 yards, on that same hunt one buff took 9 shots with the 500.. it looks like to me they weighted the first one down with lead and he just stood straddle legged for a coup de grace. The second one was in the cane and they just kept shooting him and he kept bellowing, the first shot broke that ones back....buff, Rhino and elephant are mighty tough when the first shot doesn't count, and gallon of adrenaline flow...I have seen deer, elk, moose and plainsgame take a lot of hits when the first one didn't get into the right spot..

If you feel safer with your .600 and can shoot it then good on ya..if you can't shoot it then maybe a 9.3x62 would be a better choice for you, and recoil recovery is much quicker.

So Ray, despite all evidence to the contrary, you're taking the position that an elephant cannot be stopped or turned with a closely missed brain shot? Are you taking the position that only an actual CNS hit on an elephant will stop them? I'll agree with you for buffalo, but take strong exception to that statement where elephant are concerned. And with that closely missed brain shot on elephant, caliber most definitely DOES make a difference, increasing the allowable "miss" distance. One will never be able to miss by 12" or so, but relatively speaking, you can miss the brain a bit further and still affect a STOP with a 500NE than with a .375!

We hashed this out quite throughly just recently. Several posts of videos showing exactly that. Anyone claiming they can hit the brain on a charging elephant every single time has to have powers approximating that of Superman as guys like Ivan Carter and Buzz Charlton can't hit the brain EVERY SINGLE TIME, but you also don't see them using a 9.3 or .375 as their "stopping rifles"!

As to that last statement concerning "recoil recovery" time, you know I disagree with that as well. I've posted videos specifically refuting it several times and can do so again if necessary. Recoil and recovery happens in mere fractions of seconds unless one isn't holding the weapon properly to begin with. There is NO discernible difference in the time it takes to get back on target between a 500NE and a 416 Rigby. Oh, hell, here is a video showing just that ... a 500NE vs 416 Rigby. After watching this, are you sticking to the statement that recovery time between shots is excessive with the larger weapon? Especially considering the time of recovery between my third and fourth shots?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SIaSDCCEN8

Todd is speaking the gospel. I exclusively use big bore Weatherby's because the energy does make a difference. While accuracy is always the most important factor, the greater energy does give you a greater margin of error -- 7500 ft/lbs of energy from my 460 will provide much more tissue damage in every direction than the 3500 from the 9.3x62.

If you are going into thick bush after a wounded animal (Buffalo, Lion, Grizzly, etc), it's time to take your testicles out of your wife's purse. That bruise on your shoulder will heal far faster than a horn shaped hole in your abdomen.

I would have selected the 450NE if it had been listed for the combination of enough bullet weight, not too much recoil, handling and an available quick second shot.

With the 450NE missing, I selected the 470NE.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I honestly think a proper shot with a 9.3x62, 375 or 416 will kill any animal on earth, charging or not. They have always worked for me and my favorite over the years was the 404, perhape out of nostalgia to a degree but it certain perfomed with honors and I can say the same for the 9.3x62 and .375 H&H...

I fully believe that an improper shot with the above or any caliber mentioned in this thread so far will not stop a adrnaline filled buff Hippo, Rhino or elephant, those that put all their faith in caliber and not in their ability to shoot well are in deep do-do when the time comes ..I recall the first elephant shot with a 700 N.E. ran off and was never recovered..I have on film a buff shot 13 times with a 470 and 500 double that did not expire until the shot him in the brain at 5 yards, on that same hunt one buff took 9 shots with the 500.. it looks like to me they weighted the first one down with lead and he just stood straddle legged for a coup de grace. The second one was in the cane and they just kept shooting him and he kept bellowing, the first shot broke that ones back....buff, Rhino and elephant are mighty tough when the first shot doesn't count, and gallon of adrenaline flow...I have seen deer, elk, moose and plainsgame take a lot of hits when the first one didn't get into the right spot..

If you feel safer with your .600 and can shoot it then good on ya..if you can't shoot it then maybe a 9.3x62 would be a better choice for you, and recoil recovery is much quicker.

So Ray, despite all evidence to the contrary, you're taking the position that an elephant cannot be stopped or turned with a closely missed brain shot? Are you taking the position that only an actual CNS hit on an elephant will stop them? I'll agree with you for buffalo, but take strong exception to that statement where elephant are concerned. And with that closely missed brain shot on elephant, caliber most definitely DOES make a difference, increasing the allowable "miss" distance. One will never be able to miss by 12" or so, but relatively speaking, you can miss the brain a bit further and still affect a STOP with a 500NE than with a .375!

We hashed this out quite throughly just recently. Several posts of videos showing exactly that. Anyone claiming they can hit the brain on a charging elephant every single time has to have powers approximating that of Superman as guys like Ivan Carter and Buzz Charlton can't hit the brain EVERY SINGLE TIME, but you also don't see them using a 9.3 or .375 as their "stopping rifles"!

As to that last statement concerning "recoil recovery" time, you know I disagree with that as well. I've posted videos specifically refuting it several times and can do so again if necessary. Recoil and recovery happens in mere fractions of seconds unless one isn't holding the weapon properly to begin with. There is NO discernible difference in the time it takes to get back on target between a 500NE and a 416 Rigby. Oh, hell, here is a video showing just that ... a 500NE vs 416 Rigby. After watching this, are you sticking to the statement that recovery time between shots is excessive with the larger weapon? Especially considering the time of recovery between my third and fourth shots?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SIaSDCCEN8

X2!

Todd,
Despite all the evidence? what evidence would that be? I have seen no evidence that a big bullet close to the brain will turn a charge with any degree of certenty, I have read such and took it with a grain of salt. I know a direct hit will end the ruckus with a 9.3 or 375 and a good solid. I also believe in recoil recovery.

I am only giving my opinnion, based on what I have done, observed, and from many of the PH's that I have talked to over the years such as Harry Manners who used a 375 for most of his life of elephant hunting and others too many to name, and like this thread, they too are in two differnt camps. There is no evidence, only opinnion to the contrary either way..

At any rate I'm in the camp that believes a near miss is just a miss and missing the brain cannot be depended on to turn an elephant intent on a charge or even a Lion for that matter, not saying it hasn't happened, because it has on all DG animals for whatever reasho, but so has a shoulder shot with a 30-06, but it has also failed on more than a few ocassions..Nothing takes the place of a good solid in the right spot, and the size of the hole in the brain makes little diffence. I believe with any caliber including the .600 you must skim the brain to even have any effect, and that is not a guarentee.

To each his own and I'm, good with that, but I reserve the right will stand by my statement, at least for myself as it has worked for me so far, and I shoot a 375 or 416 much better than a 500.

It just can't be your way or the highway on this subject, and I'm Ok with you using a 600 it it suits you and you can handle it.