Saw another CZ 550 (458lott) stock split at the gun range this week. It was a laminate that only had the front recoil lug bedded.

I wonder how many stocks CZ will replace before they start bedding them or fix the problems?

We have an old saying in this part of Texas...........if you don't want a horse to buck....don't let it. Which equates to, if you get it right to start with it wont be a problem. If the gunmakers made them where we didnt have any complaints most couldnt afford them.

Most of the factory guns are good place to start, I'd just as soon the price stay down and I'll put the two table spoon fulls of bedding and releive the tang on the CZ's myself......it aint that hard.

new_guy,

I too am frustrated that the gun makers don't get it Sure, the majority of big bore buyers (note I didn't say shooters!) don't put the rounds downrange we do but still it chaps me the manufacturers don't do a better job. Yes, I know a top flight dead nuts DG rifle from a custom smith goes for $4000+.

BUT, to sell a rifle that will probably crack the stock if you shoot it over a couple of rounds is bad form. How much would it cost to relieve the tang and bed it properly? With "normal" cartridges this might not be an issue, but with the Rigbys, Lotts and Gibbs HELLO! I was definitely nonplussed when I read of the "bedding" and inletting of the CZ 505 Gibbs.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Gringo Cazador:
We have an old saying in this part of Texas...........if you don't want a horse to buck....don't let it. Which equates to, if you get it right to start with it wont be a problem. If the gunmakers made them where we didnt have any complaints most couldnt afford them.

Most of the factory guns are good place to start, I'd just as soon the price stay down and I'll put the two table spoon fulls of bedding and releive the tang on the CZ's myself......it aint that hard.

I didn't say it was hard, Billy. What I said was that I saw another one crack, i.e.: in addition to the many reports you read about here on AR.

Just seems like at some point, CZ would get tired of replacing new stocks on their guns... wouldn't ya think?

I guess the alternative is to sell the guns with a disclaimer which only validates the warranty on the stock if the buyer has it bedded?

I had posted a reply on a CZ thread last week under big Bores. The laminate stock on my CZ 416 rigby split behind the rear lug at the back of the bolt. The front lug hole was oval not round, guess where the energy went to.

CZ replaced the stock free of charge and I am having it bedded at it is put back together. I leave for brownie hunt in 3 weeks, like I need this at this time, right? Better now than up there.

Spoke with two different people at CZ and got two different answers to the same question. The customer service guy said no need to bed it, the gunsmith for CZ said bed it but cross bolts weren't necessasry, but wouldn't hurt. My gun is getting both.

Yea you wonder when CZ is going to "catch on".

New Guy,

Yeah.....Your right and I agree, you'd think replacing stocks would not be profitable and they seem to not bat an eye at replacing them, CZ is pretty good. I lost two pins out of one of mine they sent it to me at no cost and I tried to pay them and said don't worry about it.

Wonder what percentage of the CZ above 375 crack, I don't have a clue.

It takes a lot more than good inletting to hold a 458 Lott or a 505 Gibbs together...cross bolts and glass bedding are a must IMO..and extra recoil lug is also a must with these calibers...The 458 Lott is where stock problem begin...

Do the CZs, in 375 and up, only have the receiver lug or do they have a barrel lug also?

Never had one apart.

Girls: Quit whining, and learn a bit about wood, stocks, long waits on shelves, and shipping accross the big wide ocean, called the Atlantic.

CZ offers you a quality product, at an incredible price. To do this, they have to cut the stocks, yes they are a bit green, not dry em out like a custom gun maker, put them together, and ship the rifle. During this time, the stock warps, as it drys, usually away from the action. Shipping conditions, and shelve storage conditions can also have moister variations that
end up with your stock absorbing moisture, then drying, and, the result is a fit not tight enough to the action, so, the action gets a running start.

First thing YOU SHOULD DO, prior to shooting the gun,is take it to a custom gunsmith, and have them check the gun, and make sure the tolerances aren't way off, and the gun doesn't need bedding. It is possible, like mine, to get a gun that doesn't NEED custom bedding. Probably because I got a used CZ rep gun, and they probably already did it to the gun...(OK: forget my experience with my CZ;-) However, your gun will likely come with a firing pin-)

It's YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to make sure the stocks fit, and, I'm amazed CZ doesn't just write into their information the problems all gun makers have with shipping rifles, and selling them.

G

If I were to buy a CZ in a DGR style , I think i would also have cross bolts and stock fitting done. I would also go for the American hunting rifle trigger. CZ rifles in the smaller
cartridges are wonderfull. But a set trigger does not belong on a DGR, and the stock must hold up. A side note to CZ service.
After a shooting session with my CZ and sevral other rifles and many shooters I some how managed to do the unthinkable and loose the bolt to my rifle. Unbelievable but true, CZ america gave me Excelent service and I had a new bolt inside a week. but I was not at all happy to pay 274.00 for it when I bought the rifle for 450.00 ...tj3006

What I do with CZ's I've bought...........I sell the factory stock to somebody that split there factory stock. Then I build my own which is crossbolted and etc. I havent had one break yet.

quote:

Originally posted by GS:

First thing YOU SHOULD DO, prior to shooting the gun,is take it to a custom gunsmith, and have them check the gun, and make sure the tolerances aren't way off, and the gun doesn't need bedding.
G

GS

When you buy a new vehicle, do you take it straight from the dealer to a mechanic and have them tear it down and rebuild it to make sure the factory didn't put it together wrong???

When you buy a new set of tires, do you leave the shop that installed them and go directly to another tire shop and have them dismount the tires, re-mount them and re-balance them to make sure the first shop did it right??

When you have an animal mounted, do you pick it up and take it to another taxidermist and have him pull the hide off the form to make sure the first guy did it right??

When you buy a new house, do you bring another construction crew in to tear out the sheetrock to make sure it was framed correctly?? Maybe pull the shingles off to make sure the roof was decked properly??

When you buy factory ammo, do you take it home and dissassemble it......re-seat each primer, weigh each powder charge and re-seat the bullet to make sure the cartridge was loaded correctly???

Why not?????

When you buy a product designed to perform a certain task.......why wouldn't you expect it to do what it was designed to do without rebuilding it before you could use it???

Now, if you buy a new jeep and decide you want it to fly......you will need to at least add wings.......but it should run down the highway, as designed, without rebuilding the transmission first! Same with a new CZ big bore......it's a rifle......and rifles are made to be shot.......why should someone buy a rifle and have to modify it before they can use it as a rifle???

Telling someone they should expect to bed and crossbolt the stock on a new big bore rifle before they shoot it......well, thats about like telling someone they should expect to rebuild the transmission on the brand new vehicle they just bought before they can drive it!!!

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Girls: Quit whining, and learn a bit about wood, stocks, long waits on shelves, and shipping accross the big wide ocean, called the Atlantic.
...
It's YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to make sure the stocks fit, ..


....G

yeah, a little learning aint a bad idea...

See, the cz AMERICAN stock is made and installed IN america... funny that.. the whole shipping, waiting, and shipping aint relevent...

As for one altering a factory stock.. it's NOT the buyer's problem to make sure a product is safe and fit for use. That's would be the manufactor's issue.

Further, once you bed the stock, it's now OUT of warrenty, and if it breaks, it's YOUR fact, not CZ...

SO, yeah, some learnin is in order.. and, according the the atf rules, CZ is selling a GUN not a KIT...

the cz price is now withing 100 of the winchester... so other than rigby based rounds, it's not really so "incredible" on price

jeffe

Jeffe,
Yeah right, take big bore perfectly bedded stock to Tanzania for 21 days or whatever and it will probably come apart and because you didn't take the proper steps it ruins your expensive safari, at least to some degree because your not shooting your own gun, that's important to some folks, so good thinking,,,

Do you expect a factory to glass bed and cross bolt, add an extra lug and still sell the gun at a reasonalbe cost, I think not...I do see at least one stock a year crack, more than a few jam because someone doesn't tweek new guns prior to going hunting....

All rifles for DG must be cross bolted and glass bedded, larger ones need two recoil lugs plus the above, then checked for feeding and shot at least 300 times, run all handloads through the gun before embarking on Safari, take all the precautions...to do less is just plain ignorant...a pound of prevention is worth a ton of cure....

Ray,
where did i say DONT bed it? I say shoot it ALOT, see how it does, and if it breaks send it BACK and then have them bed it, as they generally will.

what i don't agree is that you should EXPECT a product to fail in it's purpose built role.

jeffe

I agree with jeff if you by a gun it should work as intended without additional work on it. If I wanted a gun in kit form with assembly required I would have bought it that way.

If CZ wants to keep their price down that is all well and dandy, but to sell DG rifles that more often than not need additional work without a disclaimer to that fact is plain wrong. I am sure CZ will say just the opposite and that is exactly what I would expect them to say. Although the CZ gunsmith told me over the phone to bed it.

I am sure there are exceptions to the rule, but on this issue of bedding and crossbolting CZ stocks in DG calibers, I am not sure which is the exception any longer based on the numerous recent threads and posts to this subject on just AR.

Play if safe and bed it if you by a CZ and get a laiminated stock.

I'll still take a CZ over a Winchseter.

CZ sells rifles, not cars. Split stock is a split stock, and, I'm sure CZ can make it work, or they would change the pricing.

I recently looked at a Safari Browning 458 Win Mag, and the recoil lug setup on that didn't inspire great confidence. At that weight, I was thinking I wouldn't shoot it much, and maybe that's what CZ is counting on, that the majority of rifles they sell are going to hang on someones wall, or not be shot much, and the stocks will work for that.

People who are serious about actually hunting with their rifles are going to have a whole bunch of people like Ray telling them what to do, and, if they listen, they'll do what needs to be done.

Jeffe: I was discussing the problems of CZ with their beautiful Walnut stocks, brought in from Europe. Don't know anything about the American stocks.

As for the industry standard argument: Firearms industry standard seems to be that if you buy a production gun, it's a production gun, not a custom rifle, or pistol. It works for range shooting, and enjoyment, most of the time, and, if it breaks, you send it back, and they fix it.

Some firearms cost more, and their quality control, and reliability is higher then others. If you are going to stake your life on a firearm, that's sort of out of the main stream of what most firearms are used for. Dangerous game hunters, and people actually use guns to defend their lives, or others, are a tiny fraction of the firearm consumer population. They are held to a higher standard, and they should KNOW what needs to be done to make their rifles work for dangerous game, protection, of themselves, and others.

If a professional hunter took a CZ out of the box, used it for backup, on your hunt, without testing it, would you hunt with him? EVERYONE knows a gun you bet your life on should be tested, and inspected by a trained professional, prior to using it for the intended useage. That's why all those custom gun makers get the big bucks. If the gun fails, the family has a good case for suing the gunsmith.
That's also why you have tests for professional hunters, and their ability with thier guns.

For self-protection, I'm not going to use a gun unless it's tested, inspected, and tested again, and all mods are made to my satisfaction.
I'm also going to make sure that I take steps to insure the reliability of those guns.

Rather then a car analogy, let's use a computer analogy. If you buy a hard drive with a one year warranty, how long do you expect that drive to work? If you buy a scsi drive, designed for long term, constant usage, over 5 years, and warranty is for 5 years, how long do you expect the drive to last? Sure, you can pay 80 bucks for an ATA drive, and, you get what you pay for. If you spend double, or triple it, you get a drive that you KNOW is going to work, or be replaced, for 5 years.

You get what you pay for, most of the time. CZ is selling Rifles, most of which will never be used for hunting dangerous game.

It reminds me of buying a stock Mustang, trying to run it at Le Mans, and then complaining that Ford sucks because the Ferrari's blew your doors off.

G

If you by a DG rifle you don't buy it with the idea you are going to cut a little paper at the range and then hang it on the wall.

The Mustang LeMans analogy doesn't hold water when you are talking about a DG rifle.

A more appropriate analogy would be buying a 270 and wondering why the Cape Buffalo you shot with it stomped your ass in the ground.

You buy a DG rifle, you expect it to operate (hold together) like one.

CZ has a fine action and produces a very relaible and accurate shooting rifle out of the box. Now if they would only figure out how to get the wood stocks to stay together rather than look like "kinlin" after a box of bullets is put through them, then they certainly would be on to something.

And I do agree that more often than not you get what you pay for. In my case I paid for a new CZ 550 American Safari in 416 Rigby with laminate stock to be used on dangerous game that would hold together at least through the one year warranty period. It only cost me another $150.00 to get it bedded since CZ supplied a new stock free of charge. Now if I don't have any more problems with it the rest of my life you likely won't hear anything further from me on the subject on this rifle. I am still seriously considering a CZ 204 Ruger with laminated stock, so I can't be that un happy with CZ, just a little disappointed. I certainly would have been a pissed off mother f..... if this had happened to me three weeks from now whan I am up hunting the brownies.

quote:

Originally posted by GS:

Rather then a car analogy, let's use a computer analogy. If you buy a hard drive.....

It reminds me of buying a stock Mustang, trying to run it at Le Mans, and then complaining that Ford sucks because the Ferrari's blew your doors off.
G

If I buy a hard drive......I EXPECT it to work as a hard drive without modifying it in any way.....

The problem with your mustang at LeMans example is that Ford doesn't sell race cars, they sell passenger cars......CZ, on the other hand, sells rifles...big rifles and small rifles...rifles are designed to be shot...... if they break stocks while being used as rifles..... something is very wrong! Now, if people were breaking CZ stocks by using them as clubs or bats instead of rifles.....then those people wouldn't have a legitimate gripe.......try again......

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Girls: Quit whining, and learn a bit about wood, stocks, long waits on shelves, and shipping accross the big wide ocean, called the Atlantic.

CZ offers you a quality product, at an incredible price. To do this, they have to cut the stocks, yes they are a bit green, not dry em out like a custom gun maker, put them together, and ship the rifle. During this time, the stock warps, as it drys, usually away from the action. Shipping conditions, and shelve storage conditions can also have moister variations that
end up with your stock absorbing moisture, then drying, and, the result is a fit not tight enough to the action, so, the action gets a running start.

First thing YOU SHOULD DO, prior to shooting the gun,is take it to a custom gunsmith, and have them check the gun, and make sure the tolerances aren't way off, and the gun doesn't need bedding. It is possible, like mine, to get a gun that doesn't NEED custom bedding. Probably because I got a used CZ rep gun, and they probably already did it to the gun...(OK: forget my experience with my CZ;-) However, your gun will likely come with a firing pin-)

It's YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to make sure the stocks fit, and, I'm amazed CZ doesn't just write into their information the problems all gun makers have with shipping rifles, and selling them.

G

Yawn. OK: CZ learns from Ford. Ford built the Pinto. When you buy a Pinto, you don't expect to be in a bomb that goes boom if you get hit from behind, while signaling a left turn, a not so uncommon occurence.
Only real advantage Ford had was the customers were generally dead. The bean counters figured out it was cheaper to pay the wrongful death suits, rather then fix the design flaw.
Ford got nailed because the damages, death and such, are sufficent for the legal system to nail them.

CZ makes an action worth around 500-600 bucks, in your CZ Safaris, and puts it in a stock. This is a new design stock for them, and, it may take awhile to work the bugs out.

Lets look at the angles here. CZ could put a stock on the rifle that works 100% of the time. Then most people wouldn't be buying CZ rifles, since they would be in the Weatherby price category.

So, CZ figures what does it cost us to replace a stock? Few bucks. If the gun gets out of warranty, nothing. What harm does the shooter have? Well, if you are hunting dangerous game, you could miss your trophy, get stomped, and killed, etc. but, most likely, 99% of the time, the professional hunter cleans up the mess, and you have no reason, or I should say damages, to sue for.

If you are on your own, you still might hit your target, even if the stock breaks.

In other words, CZ has no reason to really move thier rifles into another price category, and reduce sales, by giving you a premium stock. They make their sale, you get a good action, which is about what you really paid for, and, you might even get a nice piece of wood to start out with making a beautiful rifle.

By the way, many hard drives arrive DOA, and are replaced by the maker. It's cheaper to send them out untested, and replace the DOA, then test all of them. That's why scsi is expensive. The drives ARE tested.

Finally I'm getting a bit annoyed with this "Dangerous game rifle" standard. Rifles are defined by what the person who OWNS THE RIFLE DOES WITH IT. It's YOUR responsibility to make sure your rifle is 100% capable of preforming to the standards you expect in dangerous game situations. You pay big bucks for a hunt, and a pro hunter, he's there to clean up your mess, so he's like your insurance policy. Also, if you show up with a new CZ, he's likely to tell you to use the beat up 375 he's got for just such situations, take your brand new rifle home, and test it first.

Now hunting brown bears with an untested, brand new rifle, well...

quote:

Jeffe,
Yeah right, take big bore perfectly bedded stock to Tanzania for 21 days or whatever and it will probably come apart and because you didn't take the proper steps it ruins your expensive safari, at least to some degree because your not shooting your own gun, that's important to some folks, so good thinking,,,

Do you expect a factory to glass bed and cross bolt, add an extra lug and still sell the gun at a reasonalbe cost, I think not...I do see at least one stock a year crack, more than a few jam because someone doesn't tweek new guns prior to going hunting....

All rifles for DG must be cross bolted and glass bedded, larger ones need two recoil lugs plus the above, then checked for feeding and shot at least 300 times, run all handloads through the gun before embarking on Safari, take all the precautions...to do less is just plain ignorant...a pound of prevention is worth a ton of cure....

Ray Atkinson

You can lead the horse to water, but you can't make him drink...

I have a CZ 375 H&H that I took to a gunsmith straight away, actually two gunsmiths, and both refused to do more then glassbed it. Apparently the stock was a near perfect fit, and niether felt the gun deserved cross bolting, and it was highly unlikely that the stock would ever crack, given the tight tolerances. So far, few years later, they are both right.

The first one, when I told him a paid 550 for the rifle kept looking at it muttering,
"You paid HOW much for this?"
He couldn't believe the quality of the action, and walnut for the amount I paid.

I can't help but think that you guys are the few that ignore everyone's advice, or didn't do sufficent research on the product.
If you want a Ruger, or Weatherby quality gun, why don't you return the gun, and get a Ruger or Weatherby?

I have little doubt that for the few complaining, there are 1000's of satisfied
CZ customers.

G

Newtons second law prescribes that the bigger your go in calibre the greater the backthrust, a stock designed to cater for a .375 will rarely hold good for .416 and up.

The BRNO's built in .416 and up tend to require a little after market work to keep them running well.

The area of the action recoil lug on the 601/550 action is insufficient alone to prevent cracks and splits appearing on the Rigby and probably the 458 and .505.

A second barrel lug bedded into the forend and judicious bedding applied around the action recoil lug will represent a good start, even better is to augment these with cross bolts fore and aft the magazine box and further to stress relieve a small area of wood to the rear of the action tang so as to prevent a split setting up when the action accordions back on firing, here a small gap of around .020-.030" will usually suffice.

The late lamented Jack Lott was an advocate of such stock work, not merely as advisory but as mandatory

Jeffe,
I'm not saying your wrong, I'm saying it just won't work that way..

To start with if you send them the stock back they will only replace it with another that will split out under the recoil of a 458 Lott or a 505 Gibbs...

The factory will not glass bed it with steel bed, cross bolt it or add an additional recoil lug for you (depending on the make as to the lug) These things are an absolute must on a big bore rifle over 458 Win. caliber...Then their is the feeding issue with all makes of ammo, and that is another matter all together, it takes a real expert to make a big bore feed 100%....

If I am going to hunt dangerous game, I could care less what the factory does or does not do, I want it fixed my me or a gunsmith..I want a tweeked to the gills rifle, this ain't no Texas sendero rifle...