I’m in the market for a 416 factory rifle. As much as I’d love to own a Heym, it’s just not practical for me at that price point; ideally I’ll keep this under 5K. I’m looking for a solid “working man’s” 416. I don’t have a big preference on which 416, although, the Remington might be best as I’m do not reload. Any thoughts and experiences would be appreciated.

If a 416 Rem Magnum is fine, why don't you buy a new Model 70 Safari Express, around $1600?

i suggest the 416 ruger - as the ammo is currently more available, with the ruger hawkeye available in african (walnut and blued steel) and the alaskan plastic and stainless -- or even the guide gun

Thank you for the recommendations. I figured it would boil down to those 2 options but wasn’t sure if there were some other factory options out there that I had not yet considered.

Are both the model 70 in 416 Remington and Ruger built on magnum length actions?

The .416 Ruger is a standard action (.30-06 length).

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
The .416 Ruger is a standard action (.30-06 length).

That’s an attractive feature! Truth be told I’ve always wanted a 404 built on a standard length action but it just doesn’t seem practical since I don’t reload.

Get a Ruger in 416 Ruger.

btw, if you are only reloading for a single caliber, it's not hard, difficult, or expensive. It can be time consuming and there's a minor hazard in the event of a fire.

well, i said all that, then and look at reloading kit prices -- INFLATION

anyway, you could get by with a lee benchlock loader - $50, a power scale lee safety scale - $37, lee auto prime tool $25, lee powder funnel, $5, rcbs 416 ruger dies, $80, shell holder $5

$202 would get you started

ammo is $126 per box - /20 - roughly $6 per shot

box of bullets -$83/50 - or 1.66per

primers are roughly $100/1000 - 10¢ each

varget is $60/lb (7000 gr) @70gr per, that's 100 rounds, or 60¢ per round

416 ruger brass is $100/50 - $2bucks per piece, call it 4 reloads per case = 50¢

1.66+.10+.6+.50 =$2.86 per shot ... but gross costs of $343

i might have just broken my brain, as i haven't added up new costs in a LOOOONG TIME
$6-$3 (round up) you "save" $3 per shot, but would take you $68 shots to entirely break even - which is only 3.4 boxes of shells

Nah, nevermind, if you aren't going to shoot but a couple hundred rounds, it might be cheaper and easier (and maybe even faster) to buy factory ...

remember, I started reloading 5 crisises ago -

To be honest, I’ve never seen the huge advantage of “short action” rifles.

The length difference between a .416 Rigby length and a .30-06 is what, 1/2 inch? The bolt throw is minimal. The extra weight is usually more on the lines of deliberate design to help with recoil.

The big thing is since fewer are made, it’s more expensive.

The .416 Ruger will give enough performance to kill anything… but it’s definitely slower than either the rem mag or the Rigby…

Remember that a lighter rifle will recoil more.

I’d suggest trying a few of the options and see which fits you better. Personally, Ruger stocks whack me a lot more than my other rifles.

I’d choose based on which gun I like better rather than which individual chambering it’s in.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
To be honest, I’ve never seen the huge advantage of “short action” rifles.

The length difference between a .416 Rigby length and a .30-06 is what, 1/2 inch? The bolt throw is minimal. The extra weight is usually more on the lines of deliberate design to help with recoil.

The big thing is since fewer are made, it’s more expensive.

The .416 Ruger will give enough performance to kill anything… but it’s definitely slower than either the rem mag or the Rigby…

Remember that a lighter rifle will recoil more.

I’d suggest trying a few of the options and see which fits you better. Personally, Ruger stocks whack me a lot more than my other rifles.

I’d choose based on which gun I like better rather than which individual chambering it’s in.

Great points that I hadn’t considered. Looking at the spec sheets it appears that the model 70 weighs over a pound more than the Ruger. That’s a big difference I was not expecting.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
To be honest, I’ve never seen the huge advantage of “short action” rifles.

The length difference between a .416 Rigby length and a .30-06 is what, 1/2 inch? The bolt throw is minimal. The extra weight is usually more on the lines of deliberate design to help with recoil.

The big thing is since fewer are made, it’s more expensive.

The .416 Ruger will give enough performance to kill anything… but it’s definitely slower than either the rem mag or the Rigby…

Remember that a lighter rifle will recoil more.

I’d suggest trying a few of the options and see which fits you better. Personally, Ruger stocks whack me a lot more than my other rifles.

I’d choose based on which gun I like better rather than which individual chambering it’s in.

It is completely personal / subjective, but owning both CZ550 Magnum actioned rifles and regular Interarms Mauser actioned rifles in .375 length cartridges the standard Mauser action lengths feel better to me.

A used Ruger Safari Magnum in 416 Rigby. Plenty of factory ammo. They show up from time to time. There has been two on here recently. Good function and well made. A working man's 416. Classic African!

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
T
The .416 Ruger will give enough performance to kill anything… but it’s definitely slower than either the rem mag or the Rigby…

Nope. Just nope. The rem and Rigby are factory loaded at the same 2400 fps. He isn't a reloaded and the fact is the ruger has a larger case than the rem, and the Rigby is larger than both. A hand loader could possibly get 416 Weatherby vela out a Rigby, sure enough

My own 416accrel could easily hit 2400 fps, with pretty mild loads, in fact it was hard to go that slow. The ruger obviates any need for mine

quote:

To be honest, I’ve never seen the huge advantage of “short action” rifles.

The length difference between a .416 Rigby length and a .30-06 is what, 1/2 inch? The bolt throw is minimal. The extra weight is usually more on the lines of deliberate design to help with recoil.

This! The alleged weight savings, while is does exist between actions that are actually different sizes, is easily lost in the choice of scope, mounts, sling, wood density, stock choice, etc. No person on the planet can tell by weight alone the difference between a fully kitted out/loaded "short action" rifle and a similar one that is "standard" length if they were blindfolded (maybe 1oz in a +- 10-12lb rifle loaded with scope, sling, etc). And some (Ruger M77 I'm looking at you) standard length actions are actually long enough for "magnum/3.60" rounds but are simply fitted with shorter 3.34" 30-60 length mag boxes. Where is that weight savings again? My stainless 375H&H M77 started life as a 300Win and had the two spacer ribs for the shorter mag box filed out at the rear of the mag well, so is actually very very slightly lighter than when it started and the bolt throw is unchanged as it was long enough for the longer round to begin with.

I also do not buy into the advantages of a 3/8" or so shorter bolt throw in real life, as I think it should be worked with vigor. If you are building muscle memory to only work the bolt exactly the amount required and not a fraction more I think you are setting your self up for a short stroke situation that is far more risky than the few hundredths of a second delay the longer stroke requires.

As always, just my 2 cents and that's worth exactly what you paid for it! Cheers! -Bob

I love my 404 Jeffery, but the 416 Ruger is an optimized, modern .400 caliber cartridge - probably the best design of all .400 cal bolt action cartridges.

If I bought one I'd have to get a custom stock - 15" LOP or add one of those slip recoil pads - which don't look to bad on synthetic rifles - have on my Ruger 300 Blackout bolt action Ranch Rifle.

summary - get the 416 Ruger!

quote:

Originally posted by Omnivorous_Bob:

quote:

To be honest, I’ve never seen the huge advantage of “short action” rifles.

The length difference between a .416 Rigby length and a .30-06 is what, 1/2 inch? The bolt throw is minimal. The extra weight is usually more on the lines of deliberate design to help with recoil.

This! The alleged weight savings, while is does exist between actions that are actually different sizes, is easily lost in the choice of scope, mounts, sling, wood density, stock choice, etc. No person on the planet can tell by weight alone the difference between a fully kitted out/loaded "short action" rifle and a similar one that is "standard" length if they were blindfolded (maybe 1oz in a +- 10-12lb rifle loaded with scope, sling, etc). And some (Ruger M77 I'm looking at you) standard length actions are actually long enough for "magnum/3.60" rounds but are simply fitted with shorter 3.34" 30-60 length mag boxes. Where is that weight savings again? My stainless 375H&H M77 started life as a 300Win and had the two spacer ribs for the shorter mag box filed out at the rear of the mag well, so is actually very very slightly lighter than when it started and the bolt throw is unchanged as it was long enough for the longer round to begin with.

I also do not buy into the advantages of a 3/8" or so shorter bolt throw in real life, as I think it should be worked with vigor. If you are building muscle memory to only work the bolt exactly the amount required and not a fraction more I think you are setting your self up for a short stroke situation that is far more risky than the few hundredths of a second delay the longer stroke requires.

As always, just my 2 cents and that's worth exactly what you paid for it! Cheers! -Bob

Interesting!

With that in mind, what accounts for the considerable weight difference from current production Ruger Hawkeye Safari in 416 Ruger and the model 70 safari express in 416 Remington? The Ruger is listed at 7.8 pounds while the model 70 is listed at 9 pounds. That’s a significant difference in my opinion. I know many factors weigh in to perceived recoil but I would have to imagine that weight difference would definitely affect the perceived recoil between these two. Perhaps I’m over thinking this?

COAL on the Rigby is 3.75 book loads at 100 grains or more. Remmy 3.6 at 85 grains. Ruger is 3.34 at less than 80. I do reload. 350 gr out of 26" Rigby is 2550 without pushing it. 350 gr out of 20" Ruger is 2300. Rigby is at least 3# heavier wood stock than Ruger with a Hogue. Go to a 400gr and the Ruger falls behind. Just not as much powder room. Probably lots more factory load choices in the Rigby than either of the other two. Rigby is what 100 years old! I know nothing about the Remmy.

quote:

350 gr out of 26" Rigby is 2550 without pushing it. 350 gr out of 20" Ruger is 2300

Barrel length is a bit of a factor.

Comparing a 26" to a 20" Doesn't say much about the over all performance of a cartridge.

Just that the 20 inch barrel is slower.

Who would of thought.

I can get 2500fps out of my 416 Taylor and it's 25 inch barrel with 350s.

It has less capacity then the Ruger.

let me try to wade into this

there are very few short action bigbore bolt actions - few enough that we can ignore them as a topic -

there are very many big bore carts that will fit in a STANDARD length action (nominal 3.35" oal) that can be "stretched to 3.65- this will be the majority of all big bores one would usually run into - 500 jeff, 470 capstick, 458 lott, 375 hh, 416 rem, 416 ruger, and many many more- mauser 98 and clones, m700, m70, ruger, cz 550 ( not magnum) etc etc

magnum actions, and i'll include the enfield when modified, are basically the various magnum mausers, the brno 602, cz550 magnum action, the bauska, the wells, and the ruger rsm, there's more but not many, as there's not really a market

the "3/8" of an inch difference used to be a pretty expensive difference, requiring a new action, almost all parts of the action and bottommetal, stocks, etc.. which is why it WAS pretty cheap to rebarrel a standard length action, plus additional work, to another caliber that fits into the platform, some are more easily done than others.

in the case of the 416 rem and ruger- they can be made on the same stock, same action, etc. neither require a magnum action, though the rem has been.

a 416 rigby CAN be made on a standard action - this is an art. it's generally made on a magnum action, such as the cz 550 magnum or ruger rsm. the TWO custom shop m70 416 rigbys are just that, 2 of them and no more orders accepted,due to difficulty, but the 416 rem is a production line rifle on the same action.

my own 416 accrel fits in a standard length action, and is technically superior to the ruger, but the ruger obviates the need for it, as they are close enough, in the same species as the ruger/accrel.

actual magnum length actions aren't specifically much heavier, in matter of the stripped action, but we forget the bolt, bottom metal, and stock are also heavier, as well as barrel hoop - though there is likely only 3-5oz difference in the exact same build - but people using a magnum action and caliber expect them to weigh more than a 270

me? i used to build heavy big bores, then i got used to shooting them, and recoil management can be managed by recoil control rather than just weight - which is proven by limitless videos of tyros vs experts shooting the same rifle .. heck, the military thinks the 308 kicks

lots of words, for an easy answer - one tends to carry a rifle way more than shooting it

I went through what you are going through. My case is complicated by my being left handed. The bottom line is that 416 Ruger will fit in a standard 30/06 length action. Available actions included a left hand Zastava Mauser 98 and a left hand Winchester model 70. I chose the Model 70 and had Jim Wisner install a Douglas No 5 contour barrel. Jim installed iron sights and an extra recoil
Lug and bedded it into a used McMillan stock I had. He replaced the extractor and magazine follower and did some work on the rails. The gun will feed four down snd one in the chamber. It feeds factory 400 grain DGS and DGX ammo "as slick as goose shit on a wet lawn" to quote Jim. Recoil is quite tolerable as it weighs 10.5 lb with the dead mule recoil device in the buttstock. A 1" kick-eez pad doesn't hurt either. Not including the donor action I'll have $2K in the whole thing by the time the gun is rust blued and the stock painted.

Factory ammo, 416 Ruger you will shoot Hornady 400 grain copper clad steel bullets expanding or not. Nosler talked about producing a 416 Ruger but never did. I do not know about another. Lots of people produce 416 Rigby factory in a variety. Most is premium and you will pay for premium. I have never looked into Remmy. I hand load so I like my Ruger! If I was going to Africa I would take the Rigby simply because I not afford a double!

Vol717? Did you have a standard donor action or a magnum? Did you have to have the bolt face modified?

Mine was a 30/06. Jim opened the bolt face and made a new extractor. Only a small amount of action work was required.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

350 gr out of 26" Rigby is 2550 without pushing it. 350 gr out of 20" Ruger is 2300

Barrel length is a bit of a factor.

Comparing a 26" to a 20" Doesn't say much about the over all performance of a cartridge.

Just that the 20 inch barrel is slower.

Who would of thought.

I can get 2500fps out of my 416 Taylor and it's 25 inch barrel with 350s.

It has less capacity then the Ruger.

I agree the barrel length is a definite factor.
I have 20" 416 Rugers and my rule of thumb guesstimate is 100 fps less than 24" barrels.

Referencing Swift's Number 2 reloading manual and Speer's Number 15 manual and 350 grain bullets, it seems 2500 fps is achievable out of the 416 Ruger 20" barrels.

Prior to Remington going down the tube and covid, Barnes was working on a new reloading manual, and the 416 Ruger was on the list to be included. Hopefully that eventually happens, and hopefully they have a 2000-MR load.

I really think you should find a rifle you like in either Rigby, Rem or Ruger cartridge.

Then: As Jeffeosso said, drop the $200 & reload for it. You'll get the $200 back pretty quickly if you shoot it even a fair amount.

From there, personally, I'd load it like a 404 Jeffery (around 2200fps or so). They are a real treat to shoot at that velocity.

I'd probably step it up a bit for bull elephant. But for everything else, I'd shoot it like a 404.

Just my 2 cents, (and worth at least what you paid for it...)

I don’t see how you could ever get more bang for the buck out of a factory 416 rifle than in a Ruger RSM in 416 Rigby.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
I don’t see how you could ever get more bang for the buck out of a factory 416 rifle than in a Ruger RSM in 416 Rigby.

I've had several, they weigh, what, 87# empty? the 458 lott is a better choice in the RSM-tank - they all shoot well, but goodness are they heavy

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
To be honest, I’ve never seen the huge advantage of “short action” rifles.

The length difference between a .416 Rigby length and a .30-06 is what, 1/2 inch? The bolt throw is minimal. The extra weight is usually more on the lines of deliberate design to help with recoil.

The big thing is since fewer are made, it’s more expensive.

The .416 Ruger will give enough performance to kill anything… but it’s definitely slower than either the rem mag or the Rigby…

Remember that a lighter rifle will recoil more.

I’d suggest trying a few of the options and see which fits you better. Personally, Ruger stocks whack me a lot more than my other rifles.

I’d choose based on which gun I like better rather than which individual chambering it’s in.

I take it you have never been seriously charged by a dangerous game animal.

1/2” longer bolt throw doesn’t sound like much unless you are counting split seconds.
And if you looks at any sport, from tennis to boxing, you will see the difference in first place and also rans is often measured in minute fractions of a second .

An additional 1/2 inch bolt throw could take a lifetime

And if you are interested Ruger just built a run of their 416 rifles for the Alaska Professional Hunters Association and Arctic Ammo in Wasilla has most of them for a few hundred $ under suggested retail.

I’ve never been to Africa and at my age, I doubt if I ever will. However, this thread has caused me to consider caliber vs availability of factory ammo.

1. Is there a limit on how much ammo you can bring into the various African countries?

2. How about once you reach your destination, how available are the newer cartridges like the 416 Ruger vs the
416 Remington?

3. If available, is the cost of the ammo realistic?

11#/5Kg is maximum for air travel

Man up and buy a real 416:

https://forums.accuratereloadi...341024472#9341024472

(sorry but I really need to sell this - I will do a little better on the price).

quote:

Originally posted by PAGuardian:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
The .416 Ruger is a standard action (.30-06 length).

That’s an attractive feature! Truth be told I’ve always wanted a 404 built on a standard length action but it just doesn’t seem practical since I don’t reload.

Curious as to what reloading has to do with owning a 404 Jeffery built on a standard length action. Factory 404 ammunition is available and works fine in the standard action.

I have a like new Sako (safe queen) 416Rem

~ 4 boxes of new REM 350 Speer grand slam ammo
~ new set of Redding fl dies
~ 50 rds new brass
~ New Sako rings
~ one box of 350gr Speer bullets

I’ll make you a deal!

quote:

Originally posted by Snapper:
I have a like new Sako (safe queen) 416Rem

~ 4 boxes of new REM 350 Speer grand slam ammo
~ new set of Redding fl dies
~ 50 rds new brass
~ New Sako rings
~ one box of 350gr Speer bullets

I’ll make you a deal!

Note he said he doesn't reload hence my question in the above post. Your Sako and four boxes of factory ammo would be a good starter though.

Howdy Snapper, PM sent. If PA isn’t interested, I may be!

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by PAGuardian:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
The .416 Ruger is a standard action (.30-06 length).

That’s an attractive feature! Truth be told I’ve always wanted a 404 built on a standard length action but it just doesn’t seem practical since I don’t reload.

Curious as to what reloading has to do with owning a 404 Jeffery built on a standard length action. Factory 404 ammunition is available and works fine in the standard action.

Sorry, my interest for the standard length action was in regards to the rifle's feel and had nothing to do with reloading. Some of the magnum length actions I've handled just feel very bulky to me and not as comfortable in the hand as a standard action.

If money were no object, I would just get myself a 404 but I'm trying to be cost-effective on this one and good 404's seem hard to come by at my current price point.

quote:

Originally posted by Snapper:
I have a like new Sako (safe queen) 416Rem

~ 4 boxes of new REM 350 Speer grand slam ammo
~ new set of Redding fl dies
~ 50 rds new brass
~ New Sako rings
~ one box of 350gr Speer bullets

I’ll make you a deal!

Thank you for the offer! A few things have changed over the last couple weeks and I'm going to hold off on the 416 for now. Again, thank you for the offer!

GoWyo...thank you for the courtesy! Please feel free to take Snapper up on his offer if it suits your needs. Since my needs have changed, I'm going to hold off.

quote:

Originally posted by Live Oak:
A used Ruger Safari Magnum in 416 Rigby. Plenty of factory ammo. They show up from time to time. There has been two on here recently. Good function and well made. A working man's 416. Classic African!

That's a good choice!