I am wondering if someone can share some wisdom on CZ extractor-arm clawss and chambering a round.

With control-feed my habit is to punch all rounds down into the magazine so that the bolt picks up the round under the extractor arm, lets the case slip under the claw, and positively guides the round into a chamber.

With other rifles (e.g., pre-64 Win) I remember being able to drop a round in front of a bolt, being able to push it into a chamber, and then the extractor claw was still able to slip over the rim. In other words, the action can treat a round like a push-feed if it does not pickup the round from a magazine.

Our current CZ in Tanzania can only load a round from the magazine as a controlled-feed. If a round is placed directly in front of an open bolt then the bolt with push the round into the chamber, but it will not be able to close and it will not snap the extractor-arm claw over the case rim.

Are all CZ Safari actions designed to work this way only, without being able to slip the claw over the case rim in the chamber ?

Or is this rifle an exception ?
(I've had three other CZ's but I don't remember about their ability to slip over the claw in a "push-feed" situation.)

In either case, is there an easy fix for modifying the CZ bolt-extractot assembly so that the extractor claw will slip over a case-rim even when pushing a case into a chamber?


This has become an issue because of considering the use of a bullet that is so long that it must be singlely fed outside of the magazine. A cartridge that does not fit in a magazine cannot rise up from the magazine and slip under the claw of a passing bolt. So unless I can modify the bolt of this rifle, it will not be fed extra-long COL cartridges/bullets.

Thank you for any help.

I know that it used to be a practice to bevel the front of the extractor on order to let it snap over a chambered round in Mauser type action. I always thought that this weakened the extractor, but that is just my opinion. Another method, not sure it will work on a CZ, is to put a round in the chamber then squeeze the middle of the extractor, with your fingers, against the bolt body to move the claw part of the extractor away from the front of the bolt, therefore allowing it to go to the side of the rim on the cratridge. Once it is past the rim, release pressure.

Here is an easy thing to try: While closing the bolt (where it gets hard because the extractor is trying to pop over rim) Push with other hand the middle of the extractor, bowing it in and therefore moving the extractor off the rim a slight bit. This will usually allow you to get it to pop over. I found out this from old mauser guys. All my M70's will pop over without doing this but the CZ's seem a bit harder.

You can do the extractor press trick, but a CZ extractor should snap over the rim. Mine do, and the manual has no problem with the practice. I wouldn't even consider hunting with a rifle that couldn't jump the rim, even if I had no intention of doing it. Otherwise its a problem waiting to happen.

Many CRF rifles can be maximized by a little judicious massaging of the extractor nose, playing with extractor tension, tweaking the timing of the release from the mag box and a little polishing of the feed rails. Many critics of the design have never seen how well one works with a bit of tuning. Its sort of like a carb on a performance bike or sled. It'll run out of the box but to really make it perform might require some tuning.

Standard practice for the last 40 yrs with my M-70's topping off:

Press cartridge down on full magazine, slide bolt forward and close, extractor snaps over rim. Pre 64's post 64's, short action, standard, and belted mags---never failed and never hurt a rifle.

So how does one lessen the extractor tension on the CZ?

416Tanzan,

The CZ 550 Magnum (and Medium) are indeed like a true Mauser regarding the extractor claw NOT being beveled to snap over the rim of a cartridge that has been pushfed into the chamber ahead of the extractor.

This is the unaltered state of a true Mauser extractor, and the unalterd state of the CZ.

Same "Mauser pinch" (pressing the midpoint of the extractor at side of bolt as it is closed on a pushfed round) will allow the unaltered extractor to snap over the rim and fully chamber the round in battery.

Polishing any rough edges on the extractor claw will ease that "Mauser pinch" in chambering the overly long round,
or the extra round in chamber with a full box magazine.

Further reshaping/beveling (and polishing any rough edges) of the claw on the extractor may be done to convert it into Pre-64-M70-style pushfeeding of that extra round.

If you have not done it before, have a spare extractor on hand before you do.

Another neat thing about the CZ extractor is that it is like the true Mauser in being a "Controlled Round Extractor" as well as a "Controlled Round Feeder."

CZ and Mauser are CRF&E.
Pre-64 M70 is only CRF.
That involves a Mauser-patented dovetailed slot in the bolt body where the extractor rides its corresponding dovetail around the bolt body as the bolt is rotated and withdrawn.

The "true CRF&E action" pulls the extractor in tight toward the midline of the bolt's long axis as the bolt is withdrawn in extraction.
This prevents the claw from popping off the rim in extraction. The claw will rip the rim off the brass before it will lose control.
Pre-64-M70, not so. Yet this Mauser-patented dovetail arrangement allows the claw to spring away from the midline of long axis of bolt (to snap over the cartridge rim) when bolt is being pushed forward to chamber a round.

No doubt, altering a Mauser, or CZ, extractor claw to snap over a pushfed rim (without requiring the Mauser pinch) does involve removing some steel.
Of course this weakens the claw, but how significant that is, is debatable.
I don't do it. I use the "Mauser pinch" with left hand while closing bolt with right hand.

Fast action in loading and firing is strictly from the magazine box, by CRF&E: Fiddling around with long rounds or topping off a full box with an extra round in the chamber is done only during a lull in combat.

Which of these extractors would you describe as un-beveled?

I use two "tricks" to making a CZ extractor perform a snap over. I would strongly advise buying a new extractor though if you have never done this before.
1. Bevel the entire extractor face with a coarse grit Dremel tool( but not deep enough to create a sharp edge and make sure there are no sharp edges on the extractor itself .Keep
The tool
Moving and go slowly! Round the bottom
Of the extractor slightly. 2: polish the new bevel with a Kratex polishing wheel or rouge wheel again on a Dremel tool till it's like a mirror. Test and re-polish if it doesn't snap-over easily enough. Look at the pictures dogleg posted ( the 2nd down is a good example) . Personally, I'm no fan of doing this, but you'll find the gun will feed nicer than before. The closer the extractor bevel is to the case head the easier to snap over. But you can go too far and wreck the extractor. It's really not hard to do!

The bolts that I pictured are all just as shipped from the factory and all snap over just fine. There's a CZ, Kimber, M70 and Montana rifle if you go around clockwise.

All of the extractors Dogleg showed are heavily beveled and polished across the leading face edge of the extractor as well as having the bottom corner well rounded and beveled and polished.
No sharp corners, burrs, or pointiness there.
Not surprising they all will snap over the rim of a chambered round like a pushfeed, anti-true-Mauser style.

The CZ 550 Magnum he has shown has got to be a .505 Gibbs (skeletonization of the bolt face), and it is very different in appearance than the first batch they put out.
It has been heavily beveled and bottom corner point knocked off to make it push feed, compared to earlier Mauser style extractors by CZ.
Might be custom shop work?
..............

I have 16 CZs, all but 2 are modified to some degree by gunsmiths (or by me with a dremel tool polishing spud only), and about half of them can pushfeed and engage the rim without a manual side-pinch, just an easy turn down of the bolt handle as it is pushed forward.

The others are not so easy, will do it only with the manual side-pinch on the extractor (like true Mauser), or will do it with a push forward and a hard/forceful bolt handle turn that makes me fear damaging the brass rim.

Here is an example of two of my CZ rifles, both 500 Mbogo wild cats that have had some smoothing work done on the extractor claws.
This degree of difference in bevel of the entire leading face edge and this degree of difference in the bottom corner, and top corner, rounding and beveling is enough to make it a go or a no-go on pushfeeding rim snapover.

500 Mbogo No. 1 will pushfeed and easily snap over the rim:





500 Mbogo No. 2 will not pushfeed and snap over the rim unless manual side-pinch on the extractor is applied, like a true Mauser:





Just that small amount of difference is all that is required in the shaping of the extractor leading face.
The 500 Mbogo has a .416 Rigby rim, both rifles above have CZ 550 Magnum actions.
They both have "controlled round extraction" due to the dove-tailed extractor tongue riding in the dove-tailed groove on the side of bolt.
And all true Mausers and CZ 550s have plenty of spring in the claw extractor and plenty of room in the action recess where the extractor seats,
to allow modification of that leading face of the extractor for easy snap-over.
The dove-tailed extractor tongue does not interfere with that.
It pulls inward when the bolt is extracted, but slides free, pops outward, when the bolt is pushed forward.
Mauser Genius.

500 Mbogo No. One, CZ 550 Magnum:



500 Mbogo No. Two CZ 550 Magnum:



Now that I have thought about it some more, I need to get out my Dremel tool and turn 500 Mbogo No. Two into a pushfeeder ...
It is going to take more than just a polishing spud this time ...
Maybe some files and stones too ...
I fear not weakening the extraction of my CZs.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

The CZ 550 Magnum he has shown has got to be a .505 Gibbs (skeletonization of the bolt face), and it is very different in appearance than the first batch they put out.
It has been heavily beveled and bottom corner point knocked off to make it push feed, compared to earlier Mauser style extractors by CZ.
Might be custom shop work?
..............
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Actually its a .416 Rigby, just the way it was shipped. No custom shop work there.

If you use your dremel, would you mind taking some pictures along the way so that someone can watch from afar?

If I were to do it in TZ it would be without a second extractor backup.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
All of the extractors Dogleg showed are heavily beveled and polished across the leading face edge of the extractor as well as having the bottom corner well rounded and beveled and polished.
No sharp corners, burrs, or pointiness there.
Not surprising they all will snap over the rim of a chambered round like a pushfeed, anti-true-Mauser style.

The CZ 550 Magnum he has shown has got to be a .505 Gibbs (skeletonization of the bolt face), and it is very different in appearance than the first batch they put out.
It has been heavily beveled and bottom corner point knocked off to make it push feed, compared to earlier Mauser style extractors by CZ.
Might be custom shop work?

Ron,

Those in line push feed 378 based Mark Vs make life so simple

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Michaek McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
All of the extractors Dogleg showed are heavily beveled and polished across the leading face edge of the extractor as well as having the bottom corner well rounded and beveled and polished.
No sharp corners, burrs, or pointiness there.
Not surprising they all will snap over the rim of a chambered round like a pushfeed, anti-true-Mauser style.

The CZ 550 Magnum he has shown has got to be a .505 Gibbs (skeletonization of the bolt face), and it is very different in appearance than the first batch they put out.
It has been heavily beveled and bottom corner point knocked off to make it push feed, compared to earlier Mauser style extractors by CZ.
Might be custom shop work?

Ron,

Those in line push feed 378 based Mark Vs make life so simple

Mike

Until its time to extract the casing. I've never seen so many failures to extract as with my Mark Vs.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:

Until its time to extract the casing. I've never seen so many failures to extract as with my Mark Vs.

Are you using non Wby brass that has thinner rims. Mark Vs do have short primary extraction because of the 54 degree bolt lift. Or are they old Mark Vs with lots of use and the extraction cam has worn.

If it is a primary extraction problem the bolt will open normally but if say you had the rifle standing on the butt then the bolt would not fall open. But I have never had problems and I have sure owned some Mark Vs in my time.

Rem 700 stainless can get the problem because they have less primary extraction because of the wide lugs and the bolt handle is not always attached to where it should be and the stainless galls and then their primary extraction goes right out the window.

Given the calibres and especially the 30/378 which is their big seller you would be hearing about it all the time. Extraction problems on the 30/378 are always the bolt locked up and the rubber mallet and ramrod come into action The overpowering desire to crack 3500 f/s with 180 grainers is at work

I know what primary extraction is, and I use Weatherby brass. My problem was the extractor slipping off the rim, not the bolt locking up. I've changed extractors, under-cut the bolt slot to get a little more travel, cut the hook deeper, fabricated heavier springs and did some creative cussing. When the brass is new there are no problems but let there be a bit of wear on the rim and the cleaning rod comes out. The good part is the extractor only costs 6 bucks. The bad part is I'll never trust it again. Funny thing is the Vanguard extractor never seems to give trouble.

The Remington extractor is problematic as well.
Some are installed incorrectly, and a couple of strategically placed grains of sand behind a good one can stop a 700 dead in its tracks.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
I know what primary extraction is, and I use Weatherby brass. My problem was the extractor slipping off the rim, not the bolt locking up. I've changed extractors, under-cut the bolt slot to get a little more travel, cut the hook deeper, fabricated heavier springs and did some creative cussing. When the brass is new there are no problems but let there be a bit of wear on the rim and the cleaning rod comes out. The good part is the extractor only costs 6 bucks. The bad part is I'll never trust it again. Funny thing is the Vanguard extractor never seems to give trouble.

The Remington extractor is problematic as well.
Some are installed incorrectly, and a couple of strategically placed grains of sand behind a good one can stop a 700 dead in its tracks.

Maybe the problem is in the bolt and the resulting extractor position. Are your Mark Vs with the problem the 378 based calibres.

Some Rem 700s have the extractor hand a bit low and as a result the vertical part of the extractor hits the case rim. Can baulk on chambering and shaves brass everywhere. But a new extractor makes no differences because the problem is the bolt and resulting extractor position.

The reason I asked if your Mark Vs were 378 based calibres is because the extractor is not as well positioned as with the H&H based Wbys.

soooooooo, it boils down to buying a CRF actioned rifle, and then wanting to defeat the purpose...?

What cartridge and OAL are we talking here?

Trying to cause me to waffle again?

Scarfed from the internet:

http://artoftherifle.com/contr...0-and-98-mauser.html

Excellent pictorial extremes:

M70 snap-over claw, still CRF, but never was CRE:




Mauser non-snap-over claw, CRF and CRE:




Look at the mirror-like polish on the M70 bevel face, and knife-edge thinness where it meets the extractor groove of the brass:




Look at the similar gripping area but less-prone-to-breakage edge on the Mauser extractor:

A spinning Dremel stone the same diameter or slightly larger than the rim of the cartridge would be handy for beveling along the angled face ...
A smaller stone same diameter as the brass extractor groove could be used carefully along the inside curve where steel meets brass ...

Lamp black on extractor and try on dummy brass, going slow for minimal metal removal and evenly distributed contact ...

Polish everything like a mirror and round off and smooth any corners where brass might meet extractor in feeding ...

Things I learn by googling ...

Man that 500 Mbogo looks like the perfect round. It looks like it can solve any problem one might encounter. Sorry I know this isn't helpful.

quote:

Originally posted by Sid-:
Man that 500 Mbogo looks like the perfect round. It looks like it can solve any problem one might encounter. Sorry I know this isn't helpful.

It's always helpful to discuss the perfect round, even when pushing them into a chamber and pulling them out. For .500" and .510" bores, the "Rigby casehead is ideal. Practically speaking, the 500 Mbogo is a beltless 500 A-squared. They are the preferred capacity when planning to hunt or shoot loads over 8000 ftlbs. If hunting and shooting will be limited to 7000 ftlbs, then a short-case Mbogo is better, the 500 AccRel Nyati . (Think 308 vs 3006, if the loads were going to be limited to 2400 ftlbs for a little kid.) (There is even another major step down in capacity, if someone wants a 500 Cyrus and a 2.23" case length, limited to 5500 ftlb.)

But whichever capacity one uses, they still need reliable feeding and extraction.

The CZ extractor on my .500 2 came from the factory already beveled and slides over the rim very easily. Maybe it's a new thing they are doing to all of their rifles now.....Or maybe it's only done to actions with the Rigby bolt face and the Gibbs bolt face. Anyway I guess I'm fortunate that it worked as is. It's a fine, affordable action that's great to build a big bore on.

My .375 bolt-face is also bevelled and snaps over the rim effortlessly.

I have two CZ 550 rifles in 9.3x62mm, an American and the FS version. They both slip over the rim when closing over a round manually inserted into the chamber.

Why can't a guy load a single round into the magazine, run the bolt and put the safety on then open the floorplate and fill the magazine?

For what its worth-

My M70 in 416 B&M picks up the cartridge rim in the first 3/4 in of the loading stroke as the cartridge pops up from the mag. its controlled from there to ejection.

Note--tuned by Brian at SSK

and yes -it works sideways and upside down--once the follower was sorted out I have not had a single failure to feed, failure to eject, or cartridge mishap in the action.

I was able to get some pictures over the weekend of the CZ 416 Extractor.

There is a bevel on the face that looks like it ought to work. The first picture is upclose, taken by a tablet, it is slightly blurred but clear enough to see the shapes.



A second picture is brighter and clearer. The toe of the claw, (see the little black shadow under the end of the bevel surface) has already been opened up, seemingly sufficiently.




However, the arm is already bent considerably towards the bolt. See the side view below.



The result of the arm or the bevel is that the extractor arm does not jump the case rim, EVEN WITH THE MAUSER PINCH.

So I'm thinking that I will practice working on extractors when I'm back in the US next month. There are two, year three remedies that may work. But some expertise from others would help.

1. The collar that holds the arm may be too tight. The remedy may be a new collar ring, or else dismantling the extractor arm, slipping the collar off, and pulling the collar ring slightly apart so that its tension is reduced. Does this sound probable and a trouble-free solution?

2. The extractor arm may need to be tweaked and bent outwards 1/8" of an inch in the middle of the arm so that there is more potential spring on the claw from a tettertotter effect beyond the collar attachment. Does this seem sound?

3. The bevel on the claw edge may need .01" more slant towards the outside, if some of the 'flat' of the extractor face is hitting the case rim.

Or does the extractor look like it needs replacement? I could give CZ a call when in the US.

I assume that the CZ extractor arms come off by rotating the claw out of its groove and all the way to lug next to the extractor groove, then pushing forward on the whole arm so that it slides off of the collar-ring.

Excellent photography.

Looks like your CZ extractor is pot metal instead of spring steel? I hate it when that happens.

Looks like CZ did some half-way heat treatment.

Also, they did not complete the snap-over conversion of your extractor claw.

CZ QC: Some are snap-over and some are not?
Some are springy and some are not?

Looks like the bottom edge needs to have those angular corners rounded into a smooth curve, and a little more bevel to the face of the claw especially at the bottom adjacent to where the rounding needs to be done.
I could do the same to 500 Mbogo No. 2 if the urge ever comes back ...

You need to take that extractor off and at least bend it back to straight if not completely replace it.
It is a good one for practicing your rounding and beveling on, to convert it to snap-over.
You do not need to be doing anymore Mauser pinching on the side of that extractor. Proper spring-tempered steel will not bend like that.

All of the above is correct and it can be done or you can use the pinch, both will work but I might add most of the time..

IMO, messing with the extractor is a mistake and weakens the extractor to varied extent. Furthermore I see no reason to have to do this, its so easy to just load the round in the magazine and close the bolt, if you need extra rounds in a gun, get a drop box magazine. I always hesitate to change much in a Mauser action intended for DG, other than the trigger and safety perhaps..Paul Mauser was really a much better gunsmith than anyone I have ever known.....