Interesting topic, but I'm a little concerned that your premise of two equal rifles with different chambers is not actually valid for the comparisons that we must consider for a reasoned discussion.

If we are considering North American hunting and economy rifles, the Ruger wins. Normally the Ruger is a cheaper rifle, with a technically better cartridge design. But North American hunts is not really what most .375 rifles were made for. If you feel you need the economy of a Ruger and the reloading technical advantages of the Ruger cartridge for maximum technical advantage as a resident hunter while hunting brown bears in Alaska, Ruger wins.

But I prefer to consider Africa as the reason for existence of the .375 magnum concept to begin with. To me the choice would depend on the quality of the rifle and availability of ammunition. And although I kinda like the Ruger M77 as a design and still own one as a "good value for the money" utility/loaner, I no longer choose to hunt with a Ruger. All the .375 caliber rifles I'm really interested in are chambered in .375 H&H.

I've owned and hunted with the best Ruger ever made, a RSM. But I don't think anyone would seriously think a Ruger RSM can compare with a Heym Martini Express, for example. If more high quality rifles were built chambered for .375 Ruger, I might be swayed by the slightly superior .375 Ruger cartridge design. It is a tiny bit "better" cartridge. But international travel and hunting logistics must consider other priorities.

For my African hunting I'll remain satisfied by cartridge technology that is over 100 years old. Since then, ammunition and bullet technology has continued to evolve.

The .375 H&H is much better served by by currently available factory ammo than the .375 Ruger. Setting aside my "reloader" preferences and habits, the .375 Ruger has nowhere near the quality, choice, or availability of premium bullets and ammunition distribution that the .375 H&H enjoys. Not even close.

I like the .375 H&H case better! The dealer where I bought my H&H had four Remington sealed bags of .375 H&H brass - I bought three of them. Nada for any .375 Ruger brass!
case
Bob
www.bigbores.ca[/QUOTE]

.375 Ruger brass is hard to find. I handload and when I obtained my .375 Ruger I was looking everywhere I could for brass, new or already fired. I could not find new but with help from some good guys did find bit and pieces of once fired brass to get started. The remaining brass quantity I wanted was obtained by buying Hornady ammo and breaking it down for brass and bullets. It's not difficult to find ammo which appears to be in good supply.[/QUOTE]

But at what cost? I'd expect that one box of 20 in .375 Ruger would go at least $100 + tax here in Canada! $5 per shot!!! Then how many reloads? The 150 new Remington cases I bought was about $1.50 per case + tax. Less than $200 for 150 cases which will last me until I'm done shooting.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca[/QUOTE]


The once fired brass cost me less than USD $1.00 each. The Hornady ammo cost probably averaged USD $5.00 per cartridge but considering I also got the bullets as well I would guess just the brass cost was USD $3.00 each. In total I acquired 200 pieces of brass. So, in the end it does add up to a significant outlay but apart from buying only ammo what else could one do if needing to set up for handloading and wanting to be able to shoot the new rifle freely ? I also have to consider that here in New Zealand that .375 Ruger rifles, and therefore ammo and / or reloading components, are not exactly plentiful. Mostly what's here is .375 H&H ammo as a fair number of hunters / shooters own rifles and most owners handload due to factory ammo cost of about NZD $10.00 per round. The little .375 Ruger ammo I've occasionally seen here is similarly priced.
Actually, now being completely set up for handloading for my .375 Ruger with bullets, powders and brass the factor causing most frustration and limiting enjoyment of shooting my rifle, is the primer shortage. Especially Federal primers which I prefer. I can't wait for normal supplies to start flowing again.

quote:

Originally posted by Longwalker:
Interesting topic, but I'm a little concerned that your premise of two equal rifles with different chambers is not actually valid for the comparisons that we must consider for a reasoned discussion.

If we are considering North American hunting and economy rifles, the Ruger wins. Normally the Ruger is a cheaper rifle, with a technically better cartridge design. But North American hunts is not really what most .375 rifles were made for. If you feel you need the economy of a Ruger and the reloading technical advantages of the Ruger cartridge for maximum technical advantage as a resident hunter while hunting brown bears in Alaska, Ruger wins.

But I prefer to consider Africa as the reason for existence of the .375 magnum concept to begin with. To me the choice would depend on the quality of the rifle and availability of ammunition. And although I kinda like the Ruger M77 as a design and still own one as a "good value for the money" utility/loaner, I no longer choose to hunt with a Ruger. All the .375 caliber rifles I'm really interested in are chambered in .375 H&H.

I've owned and hunted with the best Ruger ever made, a RSM. But I don't think anyone would seriously think a Ruger RSM can compare with a Heym Martini Express, for example. If more high quality rifles were built chambered for .375 Ruger, I might be swayed by the slightly superior .375 Ruger cartridge design. It is a tiny bit "better" cartridge. But international travel and hunting logistics must consider other priorities.

For my African hunting I'll remain satisfied by cartridge technology that is over 100 years old. Since then, ammunition and bullet technology has continued to evolve.

The .375 H&H is much better served by by currently available factory ammo than the .375 Ruger. Setting aside my "reloader" preferences and habits, the .375 Ruger has nowhere near the quality, choice, or availability of premium bullets and ammunition distribution that the .375 H&H enjoys. Not even close.

Based on my limited visits to the USA I guess there has been pretty good uptake of the .375 Ruger in the American market as numerous hunters / shooters I've spoken to are well aware of the cartridge and potential uses. Mentioned uses I noted were Bears and Moose and to some extent African game. I assume most experienced hunters realise that, ballisticly speaking, little separates performance of the .375 H&H and .375 Ruger. And, if ammo selection in the USA is anything to go by, I am guessing most of those hunters when Africa bound are taking a favourite rifle in .375 H&H over the .375 Ruger. I'm sure nostalgia sways the decision as American hunters targeting DG value this connection with tradition And, good on them. It's a great thing to feel the love of using and enjoying a favourite rifle / cartridge combination.
As to rifle quality I'm unaware of any "unsmithed" Ruger produced to Heym Martini Express quality levels but for what it is the Ruger Hawkeye is a pretty solid action design and I rate it sound enough for reliable functioning on an Africa DG hunt. I haven't used my own on such, yet, but would given the opportunity. My own .375 Ruger Hawkeye in factory finish needed a little post factory gunsmithing getting the feed ramp better polished to slick up feeding and radiusing the guide rails to relieve scoring the hell out of the feeding brass. It's now a rifle in a calibre I wouldn't hesitate to take anywhere pursuing either DG or lesser game, in any situation.
I cannot say this with certainty but outside the USA I suspect in .375 cal that the H&H still rules the roost. And that might remain the case for some time to come.
Speaking of Ruger's offerings am I right in saying that since the successful release of their .375 Ruger rifles they have discontinued production of rifles in .375 H&H ?

Personally speaking - and we all have our views on such matters, and hopefully they are informed and not just personal prejudices - I don't see a bleak future for the renowned H&H if the earth continues to turn on its axis! On the contrary, like the .30-06 it has had too much success world wide to fade into oblivion. Lots of thirties have come on the scene since the .30-06 (do we really need more?) and despite its age, it's still a favorite (not mine, as I'm a .300 WinMag fan, but just sayin'). And all older cartridges have profitted from new handloading components.

Will the .375 Ruger ultimately send all .375 H&H's to the scrap heap? Other world issues will decide what happens to each before either disappears due to rejection by hunters!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

375 Weatherby is my choice.

Gives 375 Ruger velocity and then some if you want it. Shoots 375 H&H without issue if you need to scrounge.

I see it the best of both, but that is one person's opinion. I doubt game can tell the difference.

For what it is worth the most accurate 375 I have shot has been the Remington 375 Ultra Mag in two different Remington 700s. It kicks quite a bit more than the others and feels much more like a 416 than a 375.

Better is the enemy of good enough.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Better is the enemy of good enough.

True, but who or what will ultimately define "better"?

My current Zastava M70 in .375 H&H appears "better" than the former two of 1/4 century ago: a push feed 24" Winchester M70 and a Browning LH, SS, 26" A-Bolt, if ballistics were used to judge. It's also shorter and handier, and fits me "better". Then it has given near Wby ballistics from "better" powders. Then, in my view, it looks "better" than either my former Winchester or Browning!

So how do we define "better", and that's not to challenge anyone, especially Mr. Shoemaker as I hold him in high esteem, even though I'm older!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I read this thread in 1950 or there abouts in Outdoor Life best I recall or maybe both it and Field and Stream, nothings changed thank goodness, what would we have to hash out...

I have both. I'd choose the Ruger. It has little more energy and that margin makes it a better DG candidate. For other game I see little difference.
But I'm building a .416 Ruger just because the 375s don't have an overwhelming amount of energy to be applied to DG.

quote:

Originally posted by Vol717:
I have both. I'd choose the Ruger. It has little more energy and that margin makes it a better DG candidate. For other game I see little difference.
But I'm building a .416 Ruger just because the 375s don't have an overwhelming amount of energy to be applied to DG.

Since "more energy" is mentioned, how much more than 5000 ft-lbs? My 22" H&H .375 easily makes that using more modern propellants than "old school" in the manuals: i.e. IMR 4064 and RL-15.

On the other hand, a .416 Ruger shoots a larger and heavier bullet that gives an edge, not due to more "energy" but more momentum and a larger cross-sectional area.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I know where the most beautiful Hoffman375 H&H is for sale for $5000 and the wood or metal alone is worth that. and its out of this world but age denies be the use of such. I have permission to sell it for what ever I can get over that, probably thinking 500 but what ever, so there ya go.

The .375 is a great cartridge, but everything the .375, the .416 can do better.

Bwanacat: I don't own a .300 H&H but back when I was shooting competition, I talked to a builder to build me a bolt gun in .300 H&H. He said I was crazy and I never did the build, but I think it would have been a great rifle. Yes, a longer stroke, but I think it would have been more than offset by the better ballistics. You've got all kinds of time on the rapid fire stings. I could spare a second or two. Always regretted the decision not to try it.

Well, in case this dead horse’s carcass isn’t yet cold here’s my .02 worth…

I’ve had a 416 Hoffman since just before Remington announced their 416. It’s a great DG cartridge and I’ve pretty much settled on taking it and my 338 Winchester when I go to Africa. Both custom built model 70’s

But when it was time to get my son a rifle for his 1st buffalo hunt, I got him a Model 70 in 375 H&H. My rationale was it was the only rifle he’ll ever need for Africa. When a client wanted to go buffalo hunting, he asked me what he should get for a rifle. He now has a model 70 in 375 H&H. And when I decided to have another rifle built, I found a pre-64 that we re-barreled to 375 H&H. When I take only 1 rifle to Africa, it’ll be that 375.

I’m leaving for the Selous in August, taking my son to hunt with Alan Vincent on his new Selous area, Madaba. A long time friend is going with us on what will be his 1st ever African hunt… at 79 years old. He’ll be shooting a 375 H&H. Between the 3 of us, there’ll be 3-375’s; all H&H.

Well you got the best PH, the best hunter the best tracker in Alan Vincent, and certainly a decent caliber but not the "best", for DG..Ive shot a lot of DG with the 375 and would do so again if the chance came but I know the 40 cal and 45 cal are better and if you ever get a close call charge, your first thought is why didn't I bring a 500!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Well you got the best PH, the best hunter the best tracker in Alan Vincent, and certainly a decent caliber but not the "best", for DG..Ive shot a lot of DG with the 375 and would do so again if the chance came but I know the 40 cal and 45 cal are better and if you ever get a close call charge, your first thought is why didn't I bring a 500!

Ray, your problem is you know too much - and I don't say that dispairingly but with all due respect. Knowing "too much" (which is a tendency of us old-timers) leaves no room for imagination or fresh adventures! I've recently purchased my third .375 H&H (the other two are long gone) and I really like it, and hope to shoot a bear with it (The other two only got to shoot paper). I'm having a ball developing loads! As you know, I'm a fan of both the 9.3 x 62 and .458 Win Mag that have both killed bears - so why a .375 H&H? At 87 I still have a great imagination and love a fresh adventure.

Nothing wrong with that, eh? I'm sure you would agree. A .375 may not be "as good" as a .40 or .45-cal, but hey! It elevates the challenge to keep life from becoming too boring!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Hornady used to have their Superformance product in the 375 H&H magnum that had the 300 grain bullets traveling at 2705 FPS. The Ruger 375 is moving at 2660 FPS. The 375 H&H comes factory loaded with many different weights and types of premium bullets whereas Hornady is the sole provider of 375 Ruger loads besides a few custom loaders. In using their DGS and DGX bullets, I have found them lacking. I know a few people at Hornady who have advised they get the higher velocities by using a proprietary double based powder which has not yet been shared with the general public. Sure, the Ruger cartridge has about 4 to 5 % greater powder capacity than the H&H version. That is not what allows the Ruger version to get the higher velocities as much as their proprietary powder. I do not have the greatest luck with achieving the same velocities when I reload the Ruger version but I can get 2617 FPS with 300 grain A-Frames in the H&H case. I do like the Ruger version but I think it's because of the rifle more than the cartridge itself. I believe when travelling to Africa I will stick with the H&H version as it is most everywhere.

I have multiples of both the Model 70 FN post 2006, and the Ruger African M77 chambered in the HandH and Ruger cartridge respectively.

I do love the 375 Ruger case, but by far prefer the model 70 action.

I think the Superformance load is only available with the 270 Interlock Bullet. It is stepping at a listed 2800 fps.

I shot some 1990s, 375 HH, 300 grain loads from my 375 HH Alaskan with an 25 inch barrel. The velo was 2600 fps. There are a lot of 2600 fps loads recorded out there in real hand loading manuals.

All this to say, I would pick the one in the rifle I liked best. If you have to have 300 grains and 2600 fps, it can be done in either cartridge wo much fuss.

I have kind of put mine up since getting my 358 STA.

the 300 win mag pushed the 300 H&H out the kitchen door with the chickens.

The Ruger 375 kicked out the 375 H&H in the dump.

So what in the coming 10 years? we will have an air compressed 30-01 SS plastic stock, plastic barrel 25 clip and all the modern AR posterS will be in convulsions and praising a wonder gun..I never dreamed of an AR-15 in my early days..Where will it end I don't even want to know..Just think another "BLACK GUN"

I do not believe the 375 Ruger made the 375 HH go away or obsolete.

More major ammo companies make 375 HH them does the Ruger round when they make either.

And I own 3, 375 Rugers.

quote:

The Ruger 375 kicked out the 375 H&H in the dump.

The Ruger cartridge has in no way pushed the H&H round anywhere. To say that is kind of silly.

20 years from now the 375 Ruger will be a novelty item.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
20 years from now the 375 Ruger will be a novelty item.

I'm not planning anything for 20 yrs from now - I just turned 88! Many of us discussing the pros and cons of this thread won't be here in less than 10 years! I fully expect to be in a better place, and I hope you do too! Jesus said:"I go to prepare a place for you... and I will come back to take you to be with me"

Thomas (an apostle) asked: "We don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me." (John's Gospel chapter 14)

That's my hope for the future, not whether I'll be shooting a .375 H&H or the Ruger .375 in 20 yrs!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Well i hope you're around for awhile and feeling good

Merry Christmas!

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
20 years from now the 375 Ruger will be a novelty item.

I thought it already was!

If you are comparing the cartridges, rather than names, or nostalgia, or history, then look at all the modern cartridges and tell me how many new ones have belts? Or are steeply tapered ?

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
If you are comparing the cartridges, rather than names, or nostalgia, or history, then look at all the modern cartridges and tell me how many new ones have belts? Or are steeply tapered ?

Which really proves nothing because the vast majority of the current new modern cartridges will likely be gone in 20 years replaced by even newer ones.

There are still many old belted cartridges that have more than stood the test of time regardless of how many so called newer better ones have come out. For instance the 458 Winchester?

All I know is I love 30.06 king's left hand Ruger. It's a beauty!!!

Had a LH Win model 70 375 H&H and a LH Rem 700 375 H&H had several inceipient case failures that left casee head in the rifle. Probably was mixing brass in different rifles. Sold both and bought a LH SS Ruger in 375 Ruger prefer the Ruger.

quote:

Originally posted by kk alaska:
Had a LH Win model 70 375 H&H and a LH Rem 700 375 H&H had several inceipient case failures that left casee head in the rifle. Probably was mixing brass in different rifles. Sold both and bought a LH SS Ruger in 375 Ruger prefer the Ruger.

Antiquated 100+ year old cartridges designed for 100 year old old powders.

375 H&H



375 Ruger

I had been wondering why gun magazines have devolved into such simple trivia.
Now I better understand the mindset of the readers.

The 375 Ruger completed a desire for me, 375 H&H performance in a 338 Winchester size platform. It does this very well.

111 posts REALLY?!

Hip

quote:

Originally posted by ldmay375:
The 375 Ruger completed a desire for me, 375 H&H performance in a 338 Winchester size platform. It does this very well.

I agree completely with the above statement.

Just weighed my Ruger Africans in 375 Ruger this morning. These were the original releases from Ruger that had no muzzle brake, and the barrel band sling swivel on the barrel (not the fore end). I own two of them. One is scoped and the other is not.

The non-scoped rifle weighs exactly 8.0 lbs. today. The scoped rifle, with Ruger rings and a Leupold 2.5-8x scope, weighs 8 lbs., 14 oz.

This is ideal weight for a 375 in my opinion and taste. Besides the weight, the grip is thin as is the fore end, perfect for my small hands. YMMV

Ruger hit it out of the park on these two rifles. They weigh less than my 375H&Hs by about 1-1.5 lbs. (depending on which of my 375 H&Hs I weigh).

In fact, my 338WMs and 358NMs weigh even more. To take a rifle of this power, and light weight hunting, ALMOST makes my other medium bores irrelevant. My scoped AHR 9.3x66 (370 Sako Mag.) that I took my last Cape Buffalo with last year, also weighs 8lb. 14oz.

When I get to scoped 375 H&Hs, I am always in the 9+ lb. weight range for my rifles, although I have read here on AR of guys with 375s in the 7+ lb. range. But with the recoil from a 300 gr. bullet @ 2,660 fps, I am happy with the weight of my current 375Ruger rifles.

Of course, the only drawback to hunting in Africa, is of lost ammo by the airlines. Here, the 375 H&H rules. However, I have taken several calibers to Africa that had no chance of replacing lost ammo, and everything turned out fine. I think the probability of losing ammo on airlines is very small, but it can happen. My ammo AND rifles were lost for about (3) days on my last safari to Zambia last year. It can happen…

And that, is why I always take two rifles on safari to Africa. Of course if both rifles don’t show up with the airlines, you’re screwed! But, if one rifle breaks down (or scope), a back up is a Godsend.

quote:

The .375 is a great cartridge, but everything the .375, the .416 can do better.

Bwanacat: I don't own a .300 H&H but back when I was shooting competition, I talked to a builder to build me a bolt gun in .300 H&H. He said I was crazy and I never did the build, but I think it would have been a great rifle. Yes, a longer stroke, but I think it would have been more than offset by the better ballistics. You've got all kinds of time on the rapid fire stings. I could spare a second or two. Always regretted the decision not to try it.

@Iavaca, you need to build/purchase a 300 H&H Magnum if for no other reason than to erase the regret of not having done so in the past. Life is short, so go enjoy it with your new 300 H&H Magnum.

The 300 H&H Magnum is a great cartridge with proven capabilities of handling all big game to include the largest bears in North America. It has proven great success on all African plains game and leopard. I'm sure more than one lion and croc have succumbed to the 300 H&H since its inception.

Today you need to handload ammo for 300 H&H Magnum as most "store bought" stuff available at your local retailer is watered down to appease the lawyers. I contend that a 200-grain bullet (Barnes TSX/TTSX; Swift A-Frame; Nosler Partition, Norma Oryx to name a few) at 2800fps is good medicine for hunting big game, plains game and certain dangerous game. Good luck with your 300 H&H build.

Btw, just to slightly stay on this thread's original topic and to appease the wizards of smart and firearms deities of this forum, just know that the 300 H&H Magnum is a better long-range choice than the 375 Ruger and has kicked the 300 Ruger Compact Magnum arse in the caged octagon popularity contest. HA!

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:

quote:

Originally posted by ldmay375:
The 375 Ruger completed a desire for me, 375 H&H performance in a 338 Winchester size platform. It does this very well.

I agree completely with the above statement.

Just weighed my Ruger Africans in 375 Ruger this morning. These were the original releases from Ruger that had no muzzle brake, and the barrel band sling swivel on the barrel (not the fore end). I own two of them. One is scoped and the other is not.

The non-scoped rifle weighs exactly 8.0 lbs. today. The scoped rifle, with Ruger rings and a Leupold 2.5-8x scope, weighs 8 lbs., 14 oz.

This is ideal weight for a 375 in my opinion and taste. Besides the weight, the grip is thin as is the fore end, perfect for my small hands. YMMV

Ruger hit it out of the park on these two rifles. They weigh less than my 375H&Hs by about 1-1.5 lbs. (depending on which of my 375 H&Hs I weigh).

In fact, my 338WMs and 358NMs weigh even more. To take a rifle of this power, and light weight hunting, ALMOST makes my other medium bores irrelevant. My scoped AHR 9.3x66 (370 Sako Mag.) that I took my last Cape Buffalo with last year, also weighs 8lb. 14oz.

When I get to scoped 375 H&Hs, I am always in the 9+ lb. weight range for my rifles, although I have read here on AR of guys with 375s in the 7+ lb. range. But with the recoil from a 300 gr. bullet @ 2,660 fps, I am happy with the weight of my current 375Ruger rifles.

Of course, the only drawback to hunting in Africa, is of lost ammo by the airlines. Here, the 375 H&H rules. However, I have taken several calibers to Africa that had no chance of replacing lost ammo, and everything turned out fine. I think the probability of losing ammo on airlines is very small, but it can happen. My ammo AND rifles were lost for about (3) days on my last safari to Zambia last year. It can happen…

And that, is why I always take two rifles on safari to Africa. Of course if both rifles don’t show up with the airlines, you’re screwed! But, if one rifle breaks down (or scope), a back up is a Godsend.

My Rem XCR II in 375 Weatherby weighs 7 1/2 lbs with Talley steel QR rings and a Leupold 2-7x Firedot scope. It's extremely weather resistant (TriNyte). It outperforms the 375 Ruger (300g at 2800 fps) and can shoot factory 375 H&H as well. I killed my brown bear with Remington Safari 375 H&H ammo loaded with 300g A-Frames. I think the 375 Ruger fill a need particulary for Alaska, with a rugged, weather resistant CRF rifle that can get 375 H&H performance with a shorter barrel

At the risk of piling on, this is a real issue. I've been looking to buy a .375 with a high magnification scope and big objective from Gunwerks, primarily for leopard and croc, where .375 is the minimum caliber. They are pushing a .375 Ruger, while I want a .375 H&H for a variety of reasons. Notwithstanding that the H&H has proved itself over a century, most importantly, the Ruger cartridge is only supported by Hornady, while a lot of factory ammo with a variety of bullets is available for the H&H. I'm partial to Swift A Frames, but don't reload anymore. I don't want to be limited to DGX softs.

Also, in a pinch, I could use the H&H with premium bullets for buffalo while hunting plains game if I wanted to take a lighter rifle.

Never shot a buffalo with a .375, but wouldn't hesitate to do so, with a premium bullet.

Since this thread seems to want to keep going, here is what I ended up with. I sold my .375 Ruger, along with several other guns and repurchased this .375 H&H built by Duane Wiebe. The action is a Husqvarna-marked FN commercial large-ring Mauser with Wiebe bottom metal and bolt, a two-position safety, custom sculpted scope bases for Tally rings, and the original two-stage trigger that was polished to be smoother. The barrel is a 23-inch Lilja. The stock is nice, straight-grained English walnut, to which Duane applied his Alkanet magic. The rifle weighs approximately 8-1/4 pounds without the scope and approximately 9 pounds with. I sold it about 8 years ago in a moment of weakness, but had the opportunity so bought it back.

Wow, very nice! Hard to top that.

Bob,
At 87 you have made your bones, and have earned the right to your opinions with which I agree with in all cases, best I recall..

This thread has taken on dust and spider webs!! as after 3 pages it exactly what it was on the first paragraph of page 1. Intelligence vs. Nostalgia!