If you're using a strong Farquharson action and you want to
use typical flanged nitro express brass BUT, you want to take
advantage of the fact that your action can handle considerably
MORE pressure than a break open action, so you want your
round to be a 500 grain (instead of the original 480 grn) .458"
diam. bullet resulting in the same sectional density as the won-
derful .411" 400 grn bullets, (SD = .340) and you want the
2400 FPS velocity that you can readily get with the 450 Rigby
or Dakota cartridge, WILL THE BRASS OF THE 450 NE HANDLE
THE INCREASED PRESSURE? How can such ideas be tested and
proven one way or the other beside trial till failure?

I hope you get some good replies on this one.

with my CZ 500 rifle I have shot a few rounds off that the presure read into 6000 ft pounds
And No problems that was done with my 458 lott and shooting 500gr bullet.

in the 45/120 - norma brass ... i have zero fear of loading it up to lott -- and have done so, calling it the 45/120 nitro -

BUT your brass maker and the fact that its a doubel rifle round, would not allow me to load the 450 NE to anything hotter than 500gr 2150 - it MIGHT fall into someone's double gun, which is not designed to handle the pressure.

jeffe

I used .45 colt brass in my FA 454 Casull, 32 gns W296/300gnJHP [in excess of 55,000 CUP] without failure.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
in the 45/120 - norma brass ... i have zero fear of loading it up to lott -- and have done so, calling it the 45/120 nitro -

BUT your brass maker and the fact that its a doubel rifle round, would not allow me to load the 450 NE to anything hotter than 500gr 2150 - it MIGHT fall into someone's double gun, which is not designed to handle the pressure.

Jeffe,

Thank you very much for answering. I understand
you half way; that part in RED.

That in GREEN confuses me. How can a brass maker
tell a guy what he's NOT allowed to do with brass
he's bought? I guess if you heavily load 45-70 brass
and put it into a "weak" lever gun you could have
an issue like-wise?
______________________________________________

JRO and TRAX,

Thank you both as well.

I have loaded 444 Marlin brass to 60,000 psi and reloaded it several times over. I done the same thing with 30-30 brass. In both instances I was using a T/C Encore, NOT a lever action. I have heard of people loading the 405 Winchester very hot as well.

I was once told that it can be dangerous to load rimmed cased very hot because they don't always show signs of pressure until too late. I have seen pictures of blown up Marlin lever actions on the net, chambered in 45-70. It was said that these explosions happened because the cartridge was loaded too hot and the rifle's action could not take the pressure. I cannot recall anyone saying it was the brass' fault.

I have never run across modern brass made in the last, very many years, that was manufactured to a "pressure level". It all is capable of anything the primer will take, since that is the weak point anyway. I am trying to think of one, but I can't. Even "low" pressure rounds, have brass that will stand high pressures because someone might want to do so. I have loaded 45-70s quite hot for Rugers, from factory 15000 psi loads. There are lots of other examples, and my Hornady 450 NE brass is as thick as any 60,000 psi round as well. As stated, it won't be the brass that will fail; you will blow primers first. Marlin 95s? Look at the metal around the chamber and it will scare you it is so thin, but will take some very high pressures.

i didn't mean your maker would tell you .. i meant that it isn't designed, by the maker, to go to that pressure ..

and then, it MIGHT could find its way into a double.. which wouldn't be good.

oh course, i would never tell a guy what he CANT do .. but i will tell you what i might do .. there's real difference there ... its your rig .. anf farq and rugers have been loaded up alot.

then again,... see wht it feels like shooting at 2150 ... the drop in the stock may preclude you from trying for more

Well I have a 450NE and have loaded the thing with 107.2 grains of powder with 550gr bullets. I have had no problems with pressure.THis is the upperlimit for capacity that the cartrige will hold though.

Any modern made 450NE case, Horneber,Bertram,
Jamison,Bell,etc will get a 500gr bullet to 2450,
and with right powder be only 40,000 psi.
And a farky action will go higher with new brass.
I made my first 458 wildcat from 450NE basic brass and
went much faster than that running 55-65k.
Even inadvertantly tested Bell brass one at about 150K psi
and the case held in the chamber ok.Ed

Here's some rough Quickload:


A little tough to read so main data:
Barrel = 24"
Bullet = Hornady 500gr FMJ
Powder = 97gr IMR 4350 (compressed)
Pressure = @59.5k psi
Speed = just shy of 2400 fps
ME = 6350ft-lbs

No Ed,
Bertram brass will NOT safely go to high pressure.. in any circumstance .. nyati brass sticks at fairly low pressure loads -- ask rob.

and the core failure of this idea is load data... there's LOTS of OLD OLD NE brass out there.. that should NEVER be loaded to high pressure.

can we be SAFETY FIRST, please?

theere's old reloaders
there's bolf reloaders
there's NO old and bold reloaders

THE DANE:

You need to put in the weighting factor for a straight case: 0.75 not 0.5
I guess your shot start pressure in bar 250.0 or 3625 psi is OK for that bullet?

My only question with high pressures in flanged cartridges (OK for 1 or two shots, maybe three?)is how many times you can reload them?
Will the case heads separate like a belted magnum, with a bright line outside and a feelable circumferential crevice inside just before they blow?

I hear the Australian military scraps .338 LM brass after one firing, even though that is some of the best stuff in the world and capable of 68,000 psi max spec.

@ RIP
Thank you sir for the correction, and what a gloomy outcome it was:

jeffe,

Thanks for the additional response; I get it!

Ed, RIP, Dane, dpcd, Canadian, and steph123 I
thank you all just as well!

I will only use Jamison or Hornady or Horneber
cases.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I hear the Australian military scraps .338 LM brass after one firing, even though that is some of the best stuff in the world and capable of 68,000 psi max spec.

Wouldn't you ?

You spend thousands of $ training someone, getting them in position, waiting for the right target to appear, to leave it to the off chance of a reload that may vary only a little but enough to cause a miss.

And possibly the one and only chance you may get to take out someone of high value ?

quote:

WILL THE BRASS OF THE 450 NE HANDLE
THE INCREASED PRESSURE? How can such ideas be tested and proven one way or the other beside trial till failure?

The cases can pretty well take any pressure the chamber can take, it's the unsupported places that give way. So, your premise condition precludes finding out the max strenth.

Only way any mechanical limit of anything can be proven is to test it. Only way to test s firearm for strength is to add maybe a half grain of powder to succesive charges until it blows, then back off a full grain. ??

I like that answer posted about the 45 Colt brass used in a high pressure load. I believe it was Ross Seyfred that was tired of hearing you could load 45 Colt brass hot because it's a weak case. He said it's not the case but how precise it fits the chamber. He proved this out by filling a 45 Colt case with quite a large amount of Bullseye powder and fired it from a special tight dimensioned cylinder in a stout revolver. He done this safely with a remote firing device but didn't need to. Nothing happen at all.

A brass case can be thought of as a gasket. Not only does it contain the bullet, powder, and primer, it seals the breech end of the firearm. Just like a head gasket on a car engine, if head isn't torqued correctly and the gasket is a loose fit, you can bet that engine is going to blow the gasket. A case in a sloppy chamber fired to pressures above what are normal for that round, talking way a lot higher, more then likely won't have a happy ending. Like mention in this thread all the case must be well supported. An example of not well supported is the 1911 Colt chamber. Run that 45 acp at very high pressures and it blows the web out of the case at the bottom near the feed ramp where it's not supported as well.

SmokinJ, your comment about the case needing to be supported makes a lot of sense to me. With a rimmed case the entire case is supported by the chamber, even the rim. Therefore, it would seem that you can load a rimmed case hot without issue, as long as, your chamber is descent. In my Encore barrels I learned quickly that I had to head space off of the shoulder or the cases suffered head separations after only a couple shots. Once I started head spacing off of the shoulder and not the rim I was able to load to 60 ksi and get at least 8 reloads without any issues at all. This is the reason I don't use straight walled cases in the Encore.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I hear the Australian military scraps .338 LM brass after one firing, even though that is some of the best stuff in the world and capable of 68,000 psi max spec.

Wouldn't you ?

You spend thousands of $ training someone, getting them in position, waiting for the right target to appear, to leave it to the off chance of a reload that may vary only a little but enough to cause a miss.

And possibly the one and only chance you may get to take out someone of high value ?

YES!
And I want a few 5-gallon buckets full of that Aussie once-fired .338LM brass.
It is just trash.
I want to help.

Too much depends on the hardness of the brass and there is much that is misunderstood.

I did a test last week using .308 win cases. Lapua and Norma. At 65,000PSI the Lapua cases were still ok after ten shots...the Norma cases were good to 9.

at 83,000PSI the old M96 mauser action opened ok with a Norma cases (primer fell out)...action blew up using the lapua case and a pressure reading of 82,600PSI.

Obviously this is far above the pressure you should be loading to- but there is no demand on the case maker to ensure that .450NE brass will hold pressures above 52,000PSI (if it is made in Europe) - no idea what the SAAMI standard is and if the US case makers have to submit samples for testing.

Also, pressures rise very quickly and unexpectedly. Again from a recent test. .458 Lott Barnes Super solid 500grn...2320fps at 61,000PSI. Identical load- 500 grn Swift A frame 81,000PSI.

You can read almost nothing reliable from the primers. If you are using new cases a case head expansion of 2 thou equates to 61-65,000PSI depending on how hard the brass is.

measuring case head expansion with fired brass tells you very little.

All of that said, I owned a Webley 1904 in .450 NE and loaded that with Bertram brass and woodleigh bullets to give me 2350fps and never had a sign of sticky extraction or any other problem - case head expansion was1 though or less...perhaps one day when Norma starts making .450 NE brass I'll test it and see what pressures I was actually working at.

All the few 585 Nyati marked cases from Bertram that I made
my first 585s out of and all the few Bertram 450NEs I made my first
458HEs out of; took higher pressures without sticking,
than the easier to get in the bigger numbers of the
the cases I finally ended up using. At least 10% more velocity.
Both these cases were the ones with the large double thick
inside corner radius. Now where they went from that thick
inside corner curve to the sides they thinned real quick
like a real obcious step, easily felt and seen, and the cases
would separate in 6-8 firings there. But this was up in the chamber a
a half inch or more, so no problem. Not going 25 firings like
cases I used the most of. When separation line was seen
cases discarded. The Bell cases I made most of my 458s out
off would stick a little at 50-55k, but the cases were tough and springy
and would do 25 firings, with DB Ball powders, at least twice the
number of firings with SB stick powder. The 20 or so Bertrams
I used would go 65k and fall out of chamber.

QL not doing it right. No reason for cases used in falling blocks or
break actions to have bullets seated .85". Half of that would be
plenty. It is a straight case and would hold 120gr compressed of
a slower denser DB ball powder and get the 2400 at about 40-45k.
A 120 gr of denser DB ball powder has same energy as 127gr, at least,
of singlebase stick powder. If I used 4350 in my stuff case life
is/was less than half, 4831 not much better .If you use a powder with a
slower peak pressure that is lower, but with a longer average taller
pressure curve you get vel needed and much more case life..............Ed

To jeffe's point of the round being an
established DR round, let's change it.
Let's use the .488 diam bullet from the
475#2 Jeffery round loaded into the 450
NE brass necked open, still "straight"
obviously. So now we have a "wildcat"
and how would this play out at 567 grns
(Sec Den .340) at 2400 FPS. Man if it
could work it seems to my little mind to
be pretty attractive.