Hi I wonder if anybody here can advise a newbie
I plan t book a trip to Zim or SA in the next 24 months for Buffalo and plains game. Now I shoot a 9.3x62, 9.3 74R double and a 9.3 WSM for medium game in Europe. I have been advised eventhough this is just leagl in ZIM this may not be enough in a charge situation. My asnwer is not to get into a charge situation....

However

My alternative is

416 rigby - hate the recoil
404 Jeffrey I understad recoil more manageble

I am also interetsed in a KNOXX rifle stock any body have experience in these large calibers?

IDEAL would be to go with either a 9.3 x 62 with knoxx stock or my 9.3 x 74 R perrugini double

Londonhunter
Thanks in advance

spend the next year shooting the double and have done with it.

Use the 9,3x74R double.
Shoot 286gr Woodleigh Softs and Solids.

I have killed a big buff and an elephant with my 9,3 double.

In a charge a 9,3 Solid to the brain will work just fine.

I like the 9.3...but would see if it liked the North Fork Flat and Cup Points. Gives the 9.3 a bit more zip with those flat noses.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Speaking only for myself, I would go up to the .404 or the .416. No, on second thought, I would take my .458 Lott.

A 9.3 will work, of course, but IMHO, if you can shoot one, a bigger rifle is better for buff.

Well, I actually find my 458 Win Mag Mark X mauser more comfortable than my #1 in 375 H&H, so you may want to experiment a little more -- my 375 Ruger is very comfortable to shoot.

I have a Knoxx stock on my shotgun -- I wanted an adjustable stock (it's for my home defense shotgun) and it reduces recoil, but I didn't buy anymore. My buddy put one on his rifle, and doesn't mind all the motion for varmint shooting, but didn't think it would be a good idea for a DGR. Did you try putting a limbsaver on the back of your rifle? They really do make a difference (even over the pachmeyer decellerators, IMO)

None of those caliber choices listed kick hard. Maybe you don't have stocks that properly fit you?

I have used and/or seen used a 9.3x64, 9.3x74 and 9.3x62. Although they killed the buffalo I don't think they are all that good at it..about like a .338 as far as I could tell...I would not hesitate to use one of them, but I sure think the .404 Jefferys is a hell of a lot better buffalo caliber...If you had to deal with a charge, then you would feel a lot better with a .404...

I have used the 9.3x62 on a few buff in Zim and just returned from Mozambique yesterday from where I shot another.
IMO, the 9.3 is a safe minimum for Buffalo and legal in Zimbabwe.
I have not met a PH who had a problem with the use of the 9.3 but GOOD Projectiles are important.
Woodleigh Solids, Swift A frame, Barns X, North Fork softs are good.

I prefer the larger rifles for the Dugaboys!and,I happen to have 2 fantastic buff rifles for sale a new 505 Gibbs CZ and a as New Merkel 470 Double,2 nice choices for Charging Buffs!(and I do take "Charge" cards!)

quote:

Originally posted by londonhunter:
Hi I wonder if anybody here can advise a newbie
I plan t book a trip to Zim or SA in the next 24 months for Buffalo and plains game. Now I shoot a 9.3x62, 9.3 74R double and a 9.3 WSM for medium game in Europe. I have been advised eventhough this is just leagl in ZIM this may not be enough in a charge situation. My asnwer is not to get into a charge situation....

However

My alternative is

416 rigby - hate the recoil
404 Jeffrey I understad recoil more manageble

I am also interetsed in a KNOXX rifle stock any body have experience in these large calibers?

IDEAL would be to go with either a 9.3 x 62 with knoxx stock or my 9.3 x 74 R perrugini double

Londonhunter
Thanks in advance

quote:

Double,2 nice choices for Charging Buffs!(and I do take "Charge" cards!)

Go with the one you are most confident with

As a sport hunter, you will do very well with any of your 9.3's; use the one you are most familiar with. Charges are very uncommon, and stopping them is really not your business. Just take the rifle you are comfy with and have a great time, dont worry about charges etc.

Thank you for all your input and I can see the valid points.

My gut feeling is also the same

Charges are very rare only if you put yourslef in that position

I would like to go with the caliber I feel very comfortable with which is actualy the 9.3 WSM

Driving a 320 woodleigh at 2500 fps or 286g at 2890 fps with a relatively falt traj for a 9.3 or .366 head.

I am confident I can shoot a very group under stress and have at least 03 follow on shot within 03 inches standing unsupported.

Shooting supported I can get it under an inch at 100 yards/ metre

So if I can sort out the ammo i.e. shipping it ahead of me arriving and convincing the PH this is more than sufficient I am ready to go

thanks everybody

Yea, go with the rifle you are comfartable with, the 9,3WSM sounds good!Finn Aagaard shot a lot of buff with his 8x60 and was happy about it. In a charge, you need to hit spine or brain anyway, so a rifle well liked is the way to go. But I agree with Gary, I would try some Northfork Cuppoints!

There is a good chance you will catch up to your Buff in a thicket and this in my opinion is a place for a slower moving bullet.

This Buff was shot with a 320grn Woodleigh solid traveling at only 2230fps which gave little recoil, full penetration and passed through a branch on the way to the buff.

I know that a 9.3x62 is a minimum buff rifle caliber, no doubt about that. I know that buffalo don't always charge, I knowt that they do charge, and I have been charged on 3 ocassions by buff shot by myself or another person..I know that I stopped one at my feet with a 450-400 and glad it wasn't a 9.3, I believe its my business to stop a charging animal as much as it is the PHs. I might save his life and he might save mine.

I know that I would not recommend a 9.3x62 for a charge stopper nor do I recommend anyone use such a light rifle for Cape buffalo.

I think the .375 is minimum, the .416 is a hell of lot better, so why use a sub caliber unless your cannot handle the recoil.

I don't care what anybody uses in the end, but I don't recommend light rifles...It seems to be a "thang" with some to use sub calibers, and I went through that stage in my life also. Glad that's over and done with.

You don't have to wound a buff to be charged by one.

Charges can happen for no other reason than bad luck. You might just stumble on a buff in thick brush at close range. I have stumbled on a couple of buff at very close range - nearly eyeball to eyeball.

But the couple I have been up close and personal with have for whatever reason decided to run the other way. Maybe it was my bad breath.

Bottom line is that buff will charge you in that situation without any provocation beyond your proximity and their surprise.

If you doubt that, ask someone to tell you about Bob Fontana - and he's far from the only one that ever happened to.

I definitely do not want to be holding a 9.3 anything if that ever happens to me, and neither do I want to rely on my PH coming to my rescue with a real stopper. I want a stopper in my hands at all times when hunting anything that might kill me, and that damn sure includes buff.

I love my 375 H and H and shoot it pretty well. I have even taken three buffalo with it.That said though when a poacher wounded buffalo charged from 20 yards with no warning and a well placed shot from my PH followed by a not so well placed shot from me dropped him seven paces from me I returned home and bought a 416 Remington Magnum on a pre-64 Model 70 action.

It's more recoil but with a lot of practice I am shooting it now also pretty well and feel very comfortable with it and am looking forward to a Masai buff hunt next summer( I hope!). If I didn't feel comfortable I would go back to the 375 but I like the extra power of the 416.

Definitely do not agree, that one does not have to worry about the buff charge. In Zim a few years back, the buff charged on my side so it was my responsibility to get it stopped. Fortunately, I had the 450 Dakota with A-Frames to get it anchored. The angle it came at us temporarily blocked the PH to get a shot in, until the last moment. My advice, carry the biggest caliber you can shoot accurately and practice. Forget about light rifles and small calibers!!

Dak

If you get a Rigby in a 10+ pound rifle with a good pad recoil is not that bad. If you keep your loads around 22 to 24K you should have no problem shooting it and will still have plenty of gun.

I also would not consider the 9.3 - 375 calibers the perfect charge stopper and consider a light rifle in 416 Taylor or Rem at 2300fps MV with a QD 1x4 scope about ideal for a buff hunting rifle.
But as Tony Sanchez-Arino recently noted "my great friend Harry Manners shot nearly a thousand elephants with his 375H&H Magnum".

You can certainly get by w/ a 9.3 or 375h&h but if you can shoot it, bigger is always better. I've had too many firends tell me horror stories about slow kills on buffalo using "small" bores. They are all good game shots so I have no reason to not belive their stories. For my first trip, I chose the 404jeffery & it works very well w/ managable recoil in a 10# rifle.

there ain't nothing like a full blown Lion or buffalo charge to make Smarty Jones buy a bigger gun!!

I am Biased But- I used a 9,3 x62 for all but the first buffalo erradication cull I took part in. Every single buffalo charge I have ever faced, I had a 9,3 in my hands. Same goes for elephant.

Every time I have stopped a charge I have prommised myself to get a bigger rifle. I owned two lovely .404's as a parks officer, but never shot anything with them. Every time something went wrong I had the little 9,3 in my hands.

Was attacked by an elephant in a ground blind and bought a .458 Lott - Shot a hippo with it just to say I had actaully used it- and now have a Kieghoff 500/416- which I have never shot anything with!

As a working PH? In most areas I will still carry the 9,3 to look after myself and back up clients. it works.

Tuskless ele in the Jesse? That's what I own a nice double for!

I have never had the pleasure of hunting anywhere but Alberta, so have never had the 'pleasure' of being charged by a buff, wounded or otherwise.
I have just purchased a x62 Husky. I cannot think that I would want to face a buff charge with it. I am not a coward by any means, I have been hunting/shooting for over 40 years, but I wonder what part of 'fight or flight' would take over.
I would feel a little more comfortable with something over .40 cal. And if I couldn't handle that big of a rifle...that's what muzzle breaks are for!
Ganyana...maybe if I had your experience, but that will never happen.

LeRoy....another 9.3'er...and loving it

I would be perfectly comfortable with Ganyana with a 9.3x62 in a charge situation but I would not recommend a 9,3x62 to every hunter out there.

I think the light rifle thing is only for those with a world of experience unless recoil is a factor, otherwise I still believe hunters should use a bigger gun. I have sucessfully used the 9.3x62, 7x57,8x57 and .338 to name a few but I'm really more comfortable with a .404 or 416.

I think we are all products of our experiences and I have seen two buffalo take over 12 shots each on one hunt, with a .470 and a 500 N.E. I have that fiasco on film sent to me by one of my hunters...It changed my mind as to what a buffalo gun should be..

I think you can probably go to far either way, and on the top end recoil recovery could have an effect and I decided like most everything else that moderation is the key to success.

Just my opine, no one is required to abide by it.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I would be perfectly comfortable with Ganyana with a 9.3x62 in a charge situation but I would not recommend a 9,3x62 to every hunter out there.


Just my opine, no one is required to abide by it.

Well the 9,3x62 was designed 1905 by Otto Bock as a special Big Game Cartridge for Africa.

It worked fine! You have to look for good bullets like A-Frames or rhinos. Combined with barnes banded solids the buffalo will have a problem.

But i prefer the 9,3x64 Brenneke...

So when you can shoot it accurately take it. Generally take that rifle with the best penetration you can shoot best.

Well I've owned a 9.3x64Bren, a 375H&H and a 404J.
In my view the 404J is the better calibre for Buff.

oldun - there is no doubt that a .404 hits harder and gives a slightly greater margin for error - provided you can shoot it as well as a 9,3.

For london Hunter - his 9,3 WSM is alot more round than the 9,3x62 and with appropriate bullets more than adequate for buff. Most clients use a .375 H&H and any difference between that WSM and a .375 is just dreams

........I don,t think the 9.3 WSM can saftley do 2890 fps with a 286 gr bullet ...I think there must have been a typo . as that is nearly 378 WHBY ballistics ...I sure do like my 9.3x64 Brenneke ....But would prefer one of my larger rifles for buff ....I use the small rifle for its ease of shooting at longer ranges but combined with the ability to knock a bear down ...I don,t know if it would knock a buff down , judgeing from what I have read and seen on film ..probably not ..,,Ya need a 475 A&M..

quote:

Originally posted by oldun:
Well I've owned a 9.3x64Bren, a 375H&H and a 404J.
In my view the 404J is the better calibre for Buff.

The 404J is not just better, the 404J is THE caliber for buff.

OK I have read all the advice from members and I have done some research. I have also shot the following since the last posting. 470 NE 375 H&H, 400 H&H, 465 H&H, 416 Rigby, and 404 jeffrey.

I have decided to get a custom HOWA 1500 long action with a 24 inch barrel fitted to a KNOXX riflecomp stock.

I have shot a 458 win mag also fitted with this stock and the recoil FELT is on par or under that of a 9.3 x 62

I will use the 9.3 WSM solely for plains game and dangerous game shipping 100 cartridges ahead of my trip.

thank you again for advice
I plan to leave in June 2008 budgeting for a
buffalo
leopard
crocadile
and 10 plains game on a 10 day trip

I find these discussions facinating after reading Boddingtons book on Safari rifles. When Craig asked PHs what gun clients should bring for Buff they overwhelmingly picked the .375 H&H. The 9.3 is the same in my book.

Now any thread on AR always recommends a .400 cal or bigger.

Now obviuously PHs have worlds more experience then even the most seasoned safari hunters here. My guess is that clients probably shoot the bigger bores so poorly that they are better off with a .375 H&H in real world hunting when you need to make the shot.

In my non scientific watching of Buffalo hunt videos there is no obvious hammer of thor effect from the bigger rifles. I seriously doubt that the experts here could tell by only watching the reaction of the Buff when shot what the caliber was. I watched a charge the on TV the other day that was the result of a poorly placed original shot by a 416 rem mag.

I would also be willing to bet that the bigger the caliber and the more expensive the ammo the less the client shoots it and the less comfortable they are with the gun.

AR members certainly shoot more then most. I put over 250 rounds through my 300 wby mag getting ready for a recent mule deer hunt. Another guy in camp also had a 300 wby and loved the caliber. He had the same ammo from a box he bought 10 years ago

Very well stated eventhough I am not an experience hunter I actually shoot comeptitive clay pigeon internationally. Hunting is only a side hobby to take away the routine of olympic trap shooting. I know if I go with a calibre I can place using sticks or free hand to within a inch at 100 yards / metres it is more lethal than something in the back side or lungs with double the power and shock.

thanks all

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
I find these discussions facinating after reading Boddingtons book on Safari rifles. When Craig asked PHs what gun clients should bring for Buff they overwhelmingly picked the .375 H&H. The 9.3 is the same in my book.

Now any thread on AR always recommends a .400 cal or bigger.

Most safari hunters are dilettantes, hunting Africa for the first time. The AR crowd, well the real big bore shooters anyway, are hard core, experienced shooters.
Hence, the preference for large-caliber rifles on Cape buffalo.

Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

George

Try the 475 Turnbull in a Winchester 1886, NFork solids. 5-7 rounds in the mag. and handles great! Comes in Take Down version also.

Londonhunter,
You have ben given a great verity of subjections on what to use and what you need. Now this is my input.
You know how to shoot you know the level of accuracy required and how to practice. I will assume your Perugini 9.3X74R was bilt for you and fits you (nice rifle by the way). I would practice with it till you can shoot it and reload it like your favorite shotgun. I hope you will post some pictures when you get back.
Bill

New deveopment

I was invited to shoot a 458 lotts and initially I had my reservations. This rifle is a custom rifle built by a german gunsmith using a HOWA 1500 action and weighs 9 pounds without scope with a walther barrel. However the stock is made by KNOXX industry in the states.

It was throwing a 500 grain handload. I shot 10 shots standing over a period of 60 plus minutes with plenty of time to cool the barrel between shots.

IT WAS AMAZING this KNOXX COMPRIFLE STOCK cuts the recoil to the same as that of my 9.3 x 62 shooting 320 woodleigh. IT WAS ENJOYABLE AND I WAS GROUPING AT 100 YARDS STANDING AS WELL. USING STICKS THEY ALL LANDED WITHIN a 02 inch circle. CANNOT BELEIVE IT.

HAS ANYBODY TRIED THIS STOCK

go to www.knoxx.com there are plenty of videos to demonstration. THIS IS A DIFFERENT STORY now!

I have one on a shotgun -- it does just about eliminate recoil. I haven't tried one on a rifle -- glad to hear you've had good results w. one.