I see this online a fair amount, don't usually check the dates of the comment:

Something to the effect: "500 gr. in a .458 Win. Mag. can't obtain 2150 fps without going to a severely compressed load."

Hodgdon lists 500 gr. .458 Win. Mag. Varget 2152 fps compressed load / H335 2163 fps / H4895 2161 compressed load.

Not too concerned about the compressed load. I'm not shooting in safari heat, nor at dangerous game.

But inevitably whatever article I'm looking at goes on to say, in effect: "Velocities for these loads are fudged. You won't get a true 2150 fps out of a .458 Win. Mag."

Anyone ever run a chrono on the .458 Win. Mag.?

In the mid 80's I loaded 74 grains of IMR-4895 behind a 500 grain Hornady and got 2110 FPS from my 458 Whitworth

Yeah, but that was 25 yrs ago. Word I get is that modern powders are producing better results, and compressed charges are less of an issue.

Yea, AA2230 I believe is one of them, but I didn't see a problem with the speed back then, and that was the point of my first post in this thread

quote:

Originally posted by 0X0:
I see this online a fair amount, don't usually check the dates of the comment:

Something to the effect: "500 gr. in a .458 Win. Mag. can't obtain 2150 fps without going to a severely compressed load."

Hodgdon lists 500 gr. .458 Win. Mag. Varget 2152 fps compressed load / H335 2163 fps / H4895 2161 compressed load.

Not too concerned about the compressed load. I'm not shooting in safari heat, nor at dangerous game.

But inevitably whatever article I'm looking at goes on to say, in effect: "Velocities for these loads are fudged. You won't get a true 2150 fps out of a .458 Win. Mag."

Anyone ever run a chrono on the .458 Win. Mag.?

I have. 2150fps is easily acheived with book loads of several powders.

AA 2250 is one of them and the best that I have used. Check out Hornaday's manual for an example. I shows loads to 2250fps. My own load, which has been pressure tested and is well, well below max runs 2145fps at the muzzle and is not compressed. You can hear the powder rattle when you shake a load. It is a low to middlin' load in Hornaday's manuals. My rifle has 26" barrels, which help.

Varget didn't like my rifle or vice versa, becoming inconsistent and flattening out prior to reaching 2150fps. H 4895 did reach 2150fps in my rifle but was more inconsistent than AA 2230. I use H 4895 for 450gr loads because it seems as goos as AA 2230 for 450gr loads but burns cleaner.

As far as NEEDING 2150fps, well, the all time benchmark game cartridge is the 450NE. Nominal ballistics for the 450NE 3 1/4", THE grandaddy, is 2150fps with a 480gr bullet. But that is out of 28" barrels. Some rifles have 28" barrels but many don't and don't shoot to 2150fps and never have either. A common, typical, in the field velocity of 2100fps was more like reality. Reach 2100fps with the 458wm and 500gr bullets and you have surpassed the historical benchmark.

Also, while the 458wm works great with 500 grainers, you can get Woodleigh 480 grainers with 458wm cannelures for more velocity. Imo, the 458wm and 450 grainer mono bullets are a near perfect match.

For what its worth, I have shot quite a few elephants and cape buffalo with the 458wm, and performance at 2145fps is all you could ask for, especially with North Fork flat nose solids, though 500gr Woodelighs are a fine choice as well. If the 480gr 458wm cannelured 480's had been available when I was last working up load, I would have choosen them in liue of the 500's. I have a huge supply of 500's but when I run out I will switch to the 480's.

BTW, I have tested H 4895, a Hogdon Extreme powder developed by the Aussies to be temp insensative, shows no discernable Chrono variation from about 40*F to over 100*F, same with AA 2230. And I have used both in extreme heat in the Zambezi Valley in Novemebr with no issues. Temps reached more than 115* some days.

Edit to add: I believe that those who say 2150fps isn't reachable are passing on ald BS that is WAY out of date and haven't loaded for it, at least not recently. {For instance, IMR 3031 was an oldtime favorite and you will still hear nonsense about it being a good choice. But it sucks for the 458wm, it is too fast, giving high pressures for velocity. Near 2050fps is about what can be achieved with IMR 3031. And is extremely temp sensative. I have seen 100's of fps variation between 40*F and 95*F. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy for the 458wm.}

Hope this helps.

JPK

OK! This is the direction I was hoping to head!

This is a new gun/caliber and I'm just starting to work with it. I have a box of .459" hard cast lead, 350gr. LaserCast Oregon Trails I bought for .458 WM and 45/70. But I'm loading these more like old BP specs -- and not hunting with them.

But I was curious about chrono data and loads, powders.

We'll look at AA 2250! So my question, after a search online, would be AA 2250 -- who makes it?

Just worked on the loads and sights for my new custom 458Win on the weekend.
Achieved 2150fps comfortably (no accesive pressure) with 480grn Woodleighs and 74grns of Benchmark2 from Winchester cases, 215Mag primers and a 23" Walther barrel.

If you have a 24" barrel just load 72 gr of Accurate 2230 ahead of a 500 gr lead core projectile and a 215 primer. Bingo; you probably have 2150 FPS. That is approx. what mine chrono; Oehler 35 and according to the data available it is about 54K PSI; very safe!
Monometal 500 gr may be a bit long.

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by 0X0:
OK! This is the direction I was hoping to head!

This is a new gun/caliber and I'm just starting to work with it. I have a box of .459" hard cast lead, 350gr. LaserCast Oregon Trails I bought for .458 WM and 45/70. But I'm loading these more like old BP specs -- and not hunting with them.

But I was curious about chrono data and loads, powders.

We'll look at AA 2250! So my question, after a search online, would be AA 2250 -- who makes it?

Accurate Arms makes AA2230, NOT "2250" and it IS a superb choice for 400-500 gr. slugs in the .458WM, if my few results, so far, are an indication.

I also have had amazing results in my Browning 1886 SRC in .45-70 with no pressure indications when shooting 405 HC bullets faster than either H-4198 or H-322 will come close to.

If, you are in Canada, "RaynerShine" in Saskabush is where I bought 5 lbs. in 2008 and they are just excellent folks to deal with. HTH.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
If you have a 24" barrel just load 72 gr of Accurate 2230 ahead of a 500 gr lead core projectile and a 215 primer. Bingo; you probably have 2150 FPS. That is approx. what mine chrono; Oehler 35 and according to the data available it is about 54K PSI; very safe!
Monometal 500 gr may be a bit long.

EZ

Jeez I hate posting loads on the internet, I have had fellows swap components, especially bullets without backing down and working up, but here goes anyway, with the admonision that these are safe in my rifle and that they may not be in any other rifle, and that one looking to load to this level needs to start lower and work up, relying on a good relaoding manual, and not on my in-expert advice:

72.5 grains AA 2230 (As noted NOT 2250)
500gr Woodleigh steel jacket solids (the softs require tweaking from this load with similar POI's likely coming with a 1/4 or 1/2 grain more powder)
Norma cases
Federal 215 primers

As previously noted, ths load reaches 2145fps (corrected to the muzzles) in my rifle, which has 26" barrels.

With EZ's info, you can see the potential is well within reach with AA 2230, with Ozhunter's within reach with yet another powder (albeit with 480gr bullets.)

JPK

Accurate arms suggests in their "on line" data that 2460 produces higher velocity at lower pressures than 2230.
I want to try some of this powder , when I can locate some.
Their data suggest close to 2190 FPS with a 500 gr Hornady at 53K PSI in a 458 in mag.
According to some verbal dialog with their technicians it is as temp stable as 2230.
BTW; I have to agree with JPK. with the load pulled off the AA site they used Hornady projectiles to achieve their data. Even though the pressures are mild for a modern bolt rifle, caution should be used if you change projectiles.

EZ

can be done.. right on a 3.35" ACTUAL winmag's edge of performance .. or, get a lott.. better still, run a 458 AccRel reamer in it, and get 2200 and be loafing.

ALL, i repeat ALL 500gr 458winmag loads exceeding 2200 are to be considered EXTREMELY suspect, and UNSAFE if the round is loaded to 3.35"

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
can be done.. right on a 3.35" ACTUAL winmag's edge of performance .. or, get a lott.. better still, run a 458 AccRel reamer in it, and get 2200 and be loafing.

ALL, i repeat ALL 500gr 458winmag loads exceeding 2200 are to be considered EXTREMELY suspect, and UNSAFE if the round is loaded to 3.35"

Who claimed 2200 FPS??

there's at leas tone fella running around here, loading his winmag to 3.6 or so, can claiming super high numbers from a winmag.. rather than saying "if you load it to lott length, you get lott performance"

If you load yourself, It is easy to get 2150fp/s with 500gr bullets and that is without compress loads.

Also check your free bore,in my Cz 550 I can seat the bullets almost to the point where they are so far out the case can not grip them any more without the bullet touching the lands.

get NDLOVU-The art of hunting the african elepant by Richard Harland. He only harvested in excess of a thousand elephants mostly with the 458. Read what he has to say about the 458. Then you can stop worrying and be happy.

I was able to achieve 2100+ with 500 gr Woodleigh Weldcores and H4198.

Howver, I think my rifle shoots "looser" (maybe the barrel is not so tight?) even though it will shoot a tight cloverleaf at 50 yards off the bench.

My son shot his Cape buffalo with it--dropped it with a soft & put 2 solids in for backup.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
can be done.. right on a 3.35" ACTUAL winmag's edge of performance .. or, get a lott.. better still, run a 458 AccRel reamer in it, and get 2200 and be loafing.

ALL, i repeat ALL 500gr 458winmag loads exceeding 2200 are to be considered EXTREMELY suspect, and UNSAFE if the round is loaded to 3.35"

Yeah, I have a Ruger No. 1, so action length is not an issue. I could ream out to 458 Express if I wanted. But the receiver says ".458 Win. Mag." and I have brass in that length.

Besides which, I'm not hunting with it.

Thats great you getting 2150 FPS out of your 458
Win Mag. I get the same FPS out of my 458 Lott when shooting Win Mag Bullets in it.

When shooting 458 Lott cartriges I get 2280 FPS.

Yea guys, why don't you grow up? Real men don't shoot short cartridges like the 458 Win and the 45 ACP when longer, sexier rounds like the 458 Lott and 454 Casull are available.

Question for Phil and others. Have you ever used recent lots of the Winchester 510g soft nose factory ammo on the beasts you have up there? I have a bunch of these that are shooting well and getting suprisingly decent velocity. Everything I've heard is that these bullets are soft (and therefore no good). Wondering what actual performance is on big NA game.

Sorry for the thread hijack.

Finn Aagaard told me that they were probably a bit too soft for cape buffalo but great on lions. On bears and moose they are devastating.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Yea guys, why don't you grow up? Real men don't shoot short cartridges like the 458 Win and the 45 ACP when longer, sexier rounds like the 458 Lott and 454 Casull are available.

At the very least one would think that if you had a "Shorter" cartridge, then you would at least have a lighter, shorter rifle to go with it????? Which Of Course I do, and equal the 458 Winchester, just 6 inches shorter and a couple of pounds lighter!

Michael

You're right about posting load data on the net...people just don't follow the rules or understand all the nuances of cartridge reloading. Many follow blindly...it's a wonder more don't get blown up in the process.

I quit posting that kind of information unless it is directly from a reliable reloading source and I name that source.

I reload my 458WN to 3.00" COAL, for use in the SMLE, using 400 to 525 gr cast lead and jacketed bullets.

I use data from the AA #2 manual and Load from a Disk along with several other resource references. It lists a Horn 500 gr RN load at 2192 fs using AA2460 at 44,800 CUP, which is below the 53kCUP/62kPSI SAAMI MAP, with a 26" bbl.

AA2230 and AA2360 give the best volume, velocity and pressures with AA2460 being the best. I can get 2-4 more reloads per case and a slightly higher velocity, 20-40 fs, than with AA2230. I also load to <45Kpsi for the SMLE receiver. I also contacted AA with questions about the best powder to used within those specific parameters....SMLE action at <45kPSI, 3.00" COAL, 400-500 gr bullets.

I also use/tried IMR 4895, BLC-2, Varget, and 748. The ball powders have a higher volume efficiency that the log powders, but that also depends on the density of the powder...there is a chart somewhere on the net, for those that want to look for it, that give most of the densities for the different powders that you can use to pre-calculate powder volumes.

I can't quite reach 2150 fs with a 500 gr bullet at my COAL and barrel length of 22" but close enough not to sweat the small stuff or split hairs, but I do guarantee a 525 gr hard cast lead bullet at 2000 plus will roll over 90% of all the beasties walking the earth and give the other 10% a very bad hair day.

FWIW I also used 45-70, 45-90/100 rimmed cases to test the same powders, bullets and case life. The 45-70 being near 458 American and the 45-90/100 being near 458 Lott capacities, and trimmed to 2.5" being near 458WM and obtaining similar pressure/velocity/case life as using 458WM cases...the rimmed cases just don't feed as well as the belted cases do.

I think there is a whole lot of whizzing in the wind when it comes to any kind of ballistic hoohaa and those who do this thing while stomping about the bush understand that most of the postings are more armchair ballistics than actual pulling the trigger and a lot of the differences are from barrel length, barrel "tightness" and COAL than anything else.

Foobar,

Have you ever chrono'd that AA 2460 / 500 gr Hornady load to verify the velocity (2192)?
I have been wanting to try it but have just not located any 2460 locally.

EZ

OXO,
I get 2200fps w/H-322 and a 500gn Horn DGX without severe compression,
and use a strong roll crimp.
Fed 215 gets it lit in an old tang safety Ruger 458 WM. I hate to admit it but its the most accurate and consistent big bore i have.
Good luck.

One tiny note FWIW. Paging through Graeme Wright's book on shooting the british double rifle. He noted that the actual regulating velocity of the 450 NE rifles and similar cartridges was closer to 2,050 fps than 2,150 fps. That seemed true also for the rifles with 26" and 28" barrels.

It is nice to see that extruded powders are giving good velocity without being overly tight in the case filling department.

Before I order in brass tubing to make a 24" drop tube, does any body have recommendations for an already built unit for case filling?

One last babble on this posting: I see that Woodleigh has added the 480 grain bullets with the 458 Win Mag cannelure to its regular line for 2010. Also, the CH4 cannelure tool works well on the North Fork FPS bullets (any bullet for that matter) when I experiment with adding a crimping groove in front of the grooved part of the shank.
Thanks

No chrono data on anything above 430 gr. The data in AA#2 Manual is for a 26" bbl and my rifle's bbl is 22" anyway, plus my COAL is 3.04" due to the magazine length restriction so the pressures would be quite a bit different also.

My computer crashed and I lost the email I was saving of the questions I asked AA which were also for a 22" bbl, 3.04" COAL and 400-450 gr bullets.

I will say that a beginning load from the AA#2 manual of 72.5 gr AA2460, Spr 400 gr, 3.04" COAL, FED 215, averaged 2265 fs, SD 17, ES 43, using WW brass trimmed 2.40", firing one case 10 times in my 22" SMLE and the case was still going strong and could have been reloaded several times more...after the first 3-4 firings the case only lengthened 0.002" or so per firing.

I also worked that same rifle/load component combination as above...up to 77 gr AA2460, 100% load density at 3.04", 2369 fs and within the <45KCUP pressure limit and no bolt sticking or flat primers. This particular rifle will stick the bolt well within the pressure safety zone because of the bolt/receiver design and sloppyness in the screwed on bolt head...it's ugly, rough, as strong as the more well know receivers, and is the fastest cycling of the WWL-WWII bolt actions.

My data, Load from a Disk and what is published in the AA#2 manual agrees within statistical ranges adjusted for the difference in COAL and barrel length.

My LfaD software predicts ~1800fs with the Horn 500 gr Hornady and my 22" rifle with 60 gr AA2460, and ~1920 fs with ~67 gr AA2460 with a 26" bbl rifle.

You can see there is a difference in published data and LfaD data BECAUSE the data was developed from DIFFERENT components, rifles, times, places and so forth.

Because of the difference in cartridge OAL, barrel lengths, pressure limits, case volumes, etc., I only played with a few 500-525gr bullets, roughly 50 rounds.

For my limitations, 430-450 gr bullets are max length (3.05" to cycle through the mag) to give optimum results as far as staying within the limits and getting optimized velocity/energy. I can single load a full length, 3.30", cartridge or load a full length one up the spout for the first shot but it still has to be loaded to <45kCUP.

AA2230 gave numbers about 5% below the AA2460 as far as powder amounts go, the pressure was higher and case reloadability was less.

Varget stuck the bolt at 74 gr, 3.05" COAL, ~2244 fs, with the 400 gr Spr, 73 gr did
~2155 fs,. but I would opt for 72 to be on the safer side.

Still...comparing other large bore shooters, ANY 45 cal 400-525 gr bullet at 1700-2400 fs will get the job done if the right bullet is placed in the right place.

The ONLY way to be sure what works in YOUR rifle is to work up the loads yourself...START LOW AND WORK UP SLOW.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Foobar,

Have you ever chrono'd that AA 2460 / 500 gr Hornady load to verify the velocity (2192)?
I have been wanting to try it but have just not located any 2460 locally.

EZ

EZ;

I've tried AA2460 in my CZ at COL of 3.34" using the 500gr Hor RN. 80grs only gave 2202 fps from the 25" barrel. Since the AA website shows 2192 fps at 52,864 psi from a 24", I've no doubt that 80grs at 2202 fps (10 fps more) was safe. But it did show slightly more pressure when measured on the head with a micrometer than H335 producing basically the same MV from 2 grains less. Neither showed any signs of excess pressure.

Those results were from my rifle only and should NOT be used in someone else's without working up in the approved manner. A .458WM has a very long freebore that normally exceeds the Lott.

Added March 1, 2010: My computer says the above load is 51,395cup/60,646psi. FWIW

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
One tiny note FWIW. Paging through Graeme Wright's book on shooting the british double rifle. He noted that the actual regulating velocity of the 450 NE rifles and similar cartridges was closer to 2,050 fps than 2,150 fps. That seemed true also for the rifles with 26" and 28" barrels.

It is nice to see that extruded powders are giving good velocity without being overly tight in the case filling department.

Before I order in brass tubing to make a 24" drop tube, does any body have recommendations for an already built unit for case filling?

One last babble on this posting: I see that Woodleigh has added the 480 grain bullets with the 458 Win Mag cannelure to its regular line for 2010. Also, the CH4 cannelure tool works well on the North Fork FPS bullets (any bullet for that matter) when I experiment with adding a crimping groove in front of the grooved part of the shank.
Thanks

Lawndart,

I used to have a log book of actual velocities achieved by various nitro express rifles. Lost it when I moved.

But a couple things I took note of, and generally, but not always, they pan out as one would expect when comparing nominal ballistics vs real ballistics achieved in real rifles.
1. The 450NE 3 1/4", with nominal 2150fps from 28" barrels, had lots of rifles that achieved 2100-2125fps with its 480gr bullets, some matched nominal.
2. The 450NE No2 had a great proportion of rifle samples that achieved 2100-2150fps. Nominal is 2175fps, 480grs, 28", and some rifles matched it, a larger proportion than 450NE 3 1/4" rifles.
3. The 450/500NE has a range substantially below the prior two with an average of about 2050fps, I don't recall any beating 2100fps even though nominal is 2175fps, 480grs, 28".
Skipping a line for emphasis!
4. The much touted 470NE in its traditional form produced nominal balistics of 2125fps, with 500grs out of 31" barrels. But vintage rifles most often produced velocities right around 2025fps. Some newer rifles are regualted for hotter loads.

Take a .458" solid and take a .474" solid of like type weight and shape and send them on their way and the .458" will win the penetration race.

Also, I saw a brass drop tube set up in a Midway catalog I blieve. Simple set up, a stand supporting the tube, with a brass funnel at the top of the tube. Don't recall length.

I have never needed a drop tube to reach 2150fps with 500's, btw. With AA2230, you can hear the powder rattle when shaking a loaed round... If your goal is more, and/or you are going to try an extruded powder, than maybe you'll really need the tube. I didn't with H 4895 and a couple of others.

JPK

JPK's info on the old NE Express rounds is correct.

If you have a .458 diameter 480/500gr bullet going 2025+ fps, then all you have to do is put it in the right spot.

History on the "Original" Winchester 458 Win Mag ammo...

Winchester's theory was, use 500gr solids for hippo, rhino, elephant, and cape buff.

The 510gr Soft was a "soft, soft" designed for lion...

It was not ment to be used for cape buff.

The Remington 500gr Soft was designed as a "harder soft" and suitable for cape buff...

70 grains of VV N133 will give you over 2100 fps. 74- 76 grains of H-335 will give you an accurate 2150 fps. AA 2230 72-73 grains will be in the accurate 2150 fps club as well.