I am looking at building a big bore rifle. I have been told that the true big bores start at the 458 caliber and go up. I plan on using a Weatherby Mark V action (unless another is suggested) and am looking at the A-Square rounds. The two im particular are the 460 short A-Square and the 500 A-Square. Recoil is not really a problem, I just want to keep this project under the 3000 mark if at all possible. The gun will probably sport a lilja or krieger barrel. Also, I would like some input on which style stock to use. I was told that these two caliber will crack a wood stock due to recoil velocity and force. Again, any information would be extremely helpful.

Two problems right off the bat. One is the Mark V action. There are far better actions for a big bore rifle. The other is the .460A2 a bit of troublesome round as far as I can tell.

I'd be a more inclined to go with a CZ action if cost is a consideration. You can buy a new one from Brownells for like $500.00.

Just my Humble $.02

the best use for a weatherby 460 based action is the 550 magnum. that's a 700gr bullet at ~2400 fps. A properly built and bedded action will not crack wood.

Do a search in this forum for "550 magnum"
Pacnor, Bauska, a couple cur rifle firms make barrels

bullets from cast (wayne D) to hawk, alaska bullet works, and many custom bullet makers
see www. custombrassandbullets.com for more information.

recoil at 2125 (7000 ft/lbs of energy) is more than tolerable in an 11.5# gun.

the barrel MUST have a recoil lug mounted.

This is simplely (basically) 460 brass straight.

Dies are available from www.ch4d.com

simple, easy, amazing

jeffe

Unless you've had experience with large bores, I'd start with something basic. I'd chose a CZ550 458 Lott: not a big investment, a genuine Mauser-type system, full magnum size action and the most versatile and practical of all the big bore rounds. Or even a 375.

fla3006 is right on the mark, but I can't shoot that caliber very well and chose the CZ 550 Magnum in .416 Rigby. I bought a barreled action and put a MacMillan stock on it. With this rifle and stock, the Leupold 1.5-5X20mm scope lines up perfectly when shouldered. With the iron sights it doesn't line up like skeet gun but I get on them pretty fast. Since that was my choice and I'm happy with it, that's what I should recommend.

Christopher,

I like your style, but talk about full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes!

The .500A2 is a whole 'nother ballgame when it comes to recoil. It packs way more punch than even a .458 Lott, which many shooters have problems with.

I am fairly recoil tolerant, but I don't like to get beat up and worked up from a .375, to a .416, to a .458 Lott, before stepping up to the .500A2--all in well-designed rifles.

You may want to try shooting someone else's big bore rifle, in one or more of the calibers named above, to see how you like them, or just start with something a little more manageable to begin with.

Thanks guys. I see that CZ is most popular, lets maybe throw in a nesika bay and hs precision and see where they fall into the line at. Both of which are custom, and I know that it is hard to beat a custom action. If I went with the rigby option, then I would load it hot, almost to the 416 weatherby specs. I like the idea of the 458 lott. Can it be loaded hotter than 2200 fps, or is that maxing her out. One thing that stops me on the CZ is the genuine mauser type system, I know that weatherby is based off the mauser action, but there are a lot more stock options and people to do action work on weatherbys or other actions. I just want to have all my info straight before I go off and begin this project. Thanks for the info you have given me so far.

If you want a .458 lott get the cz and just use 350 gr and 400 gr bullets at 2100 fps or there abouts if you have not fired big bores much, my first Claytons big bore was a 45/70 Marlin so maybe use it at 45/70 speeds first and gradually work up. The .458 lott is a very versatile round for sure !!

With the Lott, you can shoot cast lead bullets at 45-70 velocities for plinking or target shooting, 350-405 grain jacketed loads at 2500-2600fps, or 500 grain large/dangerous game loads near 2350fps for maximum power- more power in fact than most folks can reliably handle without practice and experience. Like mrlexma said, if you go to the larger rounds like the 460Wby, the various 500s or even bigger, the recoil becomes quite formidable. He is also correct that the 375 is probably what most big bore shooters start with, and for good reason. And it is a caliber that remains in most of their batteries even after they have mastered larger bores, also for good reasons.

The recoil of the Lott is basically the same as that of the .450 Rigby. It took my partner and I about six months of slowly working up to that level of recoil before we were comfortably able to send 5 aimed shots downrange into a 4" bull at 70 yards. It made our .375's feel like deer rifles. Now I'm comfortable, recoil-wise, with the feel of a hot .404. Figure .416 Rem or Rigby for comparison. Get above the Lott and you be asking yourself what the Hell you have gotten into. Fla3006's words are wise. Take heed.

Christopher -- Oldsarge is right on. I don't know what kind of experience you have shooting big bores, but you may want to work your way up. I started with a .375 H&H, then went on to a .416 Rem and then a .458 Lott. There's a world of difference in the way the Lott kicks compared to the .375. Find out if any of the board members live in your area and see if they'll let you partake in the joys of their rifles. It's cheaper than building a rifle you may end up hating.

Christopher, I am not as knowledgeable as some on building from scratch, but i will tell you the MkV action is one of the strongest if not the strongest action on the market today. The Mauser 98 is a very good action and has been used to build many fine rifles. It has all the need to have things like non rotating extractor claw and so on. I have several Wby's and have hunted with many who do and we have not had a failure in any way , period. When this debate comes up i always ask why did Roy go from 98 actions to his full sized bolt and the 9 locking lugs that do not have to have lug raceways. The answer is strength. I will shortly be beaten about the head and eyebrows by the 98 bunch and will bleed out of all the orfices in my body. It will not change my mind or the thousands of others who know . Hope this helps you out. Charlie

The strength of the MkV action is only of use when one insists of shooting overpressure, super-velocity loads. If that is you plan, you should consider it. However, for real hunting at ranges that game in usually taken, especially in Africa, velocities of that nature have no advantage. Read Gregor Woods Rifles for Africa on the subject of the American fixation with velocity. Big bores are used on dangerous game. DG isn't dangerous at 400 yards. The whole idea is to get real close. When you do, frontal area and bullet weight count for more and reliability counts for everything. The reason why Mauser actions dominate the DGR field is that they are the most reliable of actions. Strongest? No, most reliable.

IMHO you lose flexibility use wise in any caliber above 404/416. They pack a lot of punch and will work on anything. That being said, if you still want something that is a beast consider the new CZ in 505 Gibbs. The gun is about $2000 and for a couple hundred bucks of gunsmithing you can keep it together. That gun will get your attention as well as anything you hit with it!

I'd say unless you've got some very specific heavy-duty purposes in mind for this rifle to go with the .458 Lott. Brass and bullets are far more common and easy to find and it's a just a great round all in all. I doubt you'll find anyone here suggesting that it's not up to the task for ANY purpose on the planet either.

You can load from 300gr up to 600gr bullets and can download it for plinking too.

Like I said earlier, I am just looking around before I go off and spend the money on a rifle. I am guessing with round like this, that the belted cases are going to show a lot of expansion just above the belting, where the die does not resize. How many shots could I get from one piece of brass. Reputable brass for these big boys is definitely not cheap if I am going to only get 2 shots out of each case. Also, let me know how the feeding reliability is with belted cases. I know that a lot of guys are saying that the ultra mags feed better due to the lack of the belt. Like I said before I would rather work all of these details out now, instead of after the rifle is built. Bye, the way, I know it is a little different, but I have hunted deer for some time with a 10ga. slug, which, I think I read somewhere, is equivalent to a 458 win. Also, I can shoot the 458 win out of a 458 lott, correct. So I could fireform 458 win cases, which are a lot cheaper, to the 458 lott. I know that hornady makes brass for the lott, but I only like to load norma or lapua. I have never tried a-square, but I heard that it was good too (it should be for how much it costs).

In my experience, large bore belted cases last as long as any. You can't fireform 458Win into 458Lott, it's 0.3" longer, like a 38Special to a 357Mag. Hornady brass is as good as any. Start with a good factory rifle in a popular standard like the 375 or 458, then decide if you really want to upgrade and spend lots more on an exotic custom.

Christopher,

quote:

let me know how the feeding reliability is with belted cases.

in a properly set up rifle, slicker than owl snot.

quote:

I can shoot the 458 win out of a 458 lott, correct. So I could fireform 458 win cases, which are a lot cheaper, to the 458 lott.

Yes, No, No.

quote:

I only like to load norma or lapua

both brand are good, but not indestructable. Wby brass is nothhing more than relabled Norma. If I reload my 300Wby brass to factory spec., I will only get two or maybe three reloads. Then tha primer pockets are too big, from the high pressures.


From what you have put in your post here, it seems that you have limited experiance reloading. There are lots of guys here who will share their knowledge, if approached in the right way. I have been shooting for over 45 years and reloading for more than 30. I've learned a lot here myself, from reading post and asking questions. This is a great forum, you can learn a lot of different things on many, many subjects, as I have already stated.

As for a big bore, my vote is for the 458 Lott. For the reasons mentioned above and because I have one also, and love it.

Hog Killer

quote:

Originally posted by Oldsarge:
The strength of the MkV action is only of use when one insists of shooting overpressure, super-velocity loads. If that is you plan, you should consider it. However, for real hunting at ranges that game in usually taken, especially in Africa, velocities of that nature have no advantage. Read Gregor Woods Rifles for Africa on the subject of the American fixation with velocity. Big bores are used on dangerous game. DG isn't dangerous at 400 yards. The whole idea is to get real close. When you do, frontal area and bullet weight count for more and reliability counts for everything. The reason why Mauser actions dominate the DGR field is that they are the most reliable of actions. Strongest? No, most reliable.

Oldsarge, i totaly agree with you on bullet weight and dia. it gets the job done. Many so called old british cartridges are being reborn as is the case of the .416 Rigby. Until the laws of phycics are changed velocity equals energy, and the Wby. line stood the world on its ear when they were introduced, because of that fact. The big bore line up of Wby's. wee not designed to shoot game at 400 yds. , just the oposite. They were designed to put the maximum amount of velocity asnd bullet weight accuratly on target and that equals power, and penetration the two things that kill D.G.'s The 98 action has been reproduced, and modified because their are no patents on it. If Roy did not do that to his it would be copied just as the rest have been. This never ending argument will never be ended,maybe its ment to be that way. Charlie

quote:

Originally posted by Christopher:
Also, let me know how the feeding reliability is with belted cases.


I know that a lot of guys are saying that the ultra mags feed better due to the lack of the belt.

1: The 300 HH and 375 HH are of the slickest feeding guns in the universe. Because it has a belt has nothing whatever to do with how it feeds, rather the smith's skill.

2: Ultramags feeding well? From a standard mag? and easier then a belted mag?
Sorry, go hand those folks a BULLSHIT card, unless they are using a single stack mag.

That RUM's feed well, sure, but it IS work to get them to, when building a gun.

3: You webby action is a singlestack, right? you could feed 3.5" squared off cylinders from that mag.

jeffe

If I do decide to go with the 458 lott, could I not use my 300 weatherby action? That would save me hunting down an action and spending the money on it. The only thing that I would have to do is get a barrel chambered and definitely a new wood stock and a muzzle brake. If I do that, then the it would be a better fit intsead of buying an action for the 416 rigby family of cases.

Jeffe,
Not to mention how well the 300 and 375 feed, also the 416 Rem. but extraction is the real clincher, that taper makes a bad case easy to pull out....a much overlooked point these days.

quote:

Originally posted by Christopher:
If I do decide to go with the 458 lott, could I not use my 300 weatherby action?

Yes, it could be done. You could even use the original stock, just open the barrel channel up for the larger barrel. Just make sure to bed the action and the added recoil lug on the barrel. There is no need for one of those BS muzzel brakes, all they will do is kill yours and anyone else around you, ears in a hurry. NO MUZZEL BRAKES ON ANYTHING WITHOUT TRACKS UNDER IT.

Hog Killer

quote:

One thing that stops me on the CZ is the genuine mauser type system, I know that weatherby is based off the mauser action, but there are a lot more stock options and people to do action work on weatherbys or other actions.

Absolutely incorrect. you will find more patterns, more parts, more affordable rates, when working on the CZ, or any true mauser than you will that Weatherby or Nesika bay. And part of what you were talking about was keeping cost low correct?

You could sell your 300 and get into a cz in 458 for less than you could have your gun turned into one for. by the time you figure in barrel, plumbing (truing the action, fitting the barrel, chambering it, working out feeding), open sights, recoil lug, barrel band sling stud if you want one (to save your hand from a forend mounted one) then bluing etc.

It really is a good idea to shoot some big guns before you have one built. remember, having a gun built FOR YOU, means it wasn't built for anybody else, and big bores are a limited market. that means if you spend 3000 dollars and 1-2 years (seriously, it can take that long and longer) having a big bore built and then find out that DAMN THAT HURTS or it isn't fun, then you are stuck taking a loss on something that you were so happy to be building.

There are members here from almost every state, and almost all of them are nice neough, when plied with the right things, to let you shoot their big guns. try a few, see what stock design YOU LIKE best. some like the butt ugly weatherby design and say it works well, some prefer a straighter comb. some like a cheekpiece.

in short don't jump into the custom big bore market without doing a bit more hands on research.

Red

Red, I appreciate the information. That is exactly why I am here asking questions. Already I have been given some very good advice. It seems to me that I can already see that the stock plays an important role in managing the recoil from these large rifles. Also, I am finding out that the 458 lott has become the work horse since its factory introduction by Ruger and Hornady in 2003. I am trying to get all of the information that I can before I just jump into this project. Keeping cost reasonable. If I had the money there would be a H&H being built in 500 NE right now for me. Even if it never got shot, I think it is one of the greatest looking guns out there. But I cannot put over 100k into a gun so I am looking to buy or build a gun that I will be able to be proud to own. I appreciate everyone's input and hope that it keeps coming in. If anyone has any ideas of what would be there dream rifle, please share.

Here's a very nice semi-custom 416 Rigby that can be bought for under $3K: RIGBY

And you mentioned a 500Jeff, preferably built by H&H. Here's a Jeff, beautifully built by Waffenfabrik Hein (www.rifleactions.com) on a 1933 Oberndorf action, Blackburn bottom metal, engraved integral rib barrel, etc., available for a mere $10K, which I would rather have than the H&H:

Since you have the Weatherby action, you could go with a 460 and load it down to 2400 fps...same idea as the 416 rigby. You can get very consistent Lott velocities out of the 460 with XMP5744 that have LESS recoil than the Lott. No problem with ammo in a pinch, either...

quote:

Originally posted by Sabot:
Since you have the Weatherby action, you could go with a 460 and load it down to 2400 fps...same idea as the 416 rigby. You can get very consistent Lott velocities out of the 460 with XMP5744 that have LESS recoil than the Lott. No problem with ammo in a pinch, either...

Sabot,

He has the 300Wby, that is not the same action used on the bigger 460Wby.

Hog Killer

Check your Shotgun news adds for CDNN Investments they had some WInchester 70 Safari grades in 416 Rem and 458 WIn Mags. You need to call them or check the Shotgun News to get the pricing as they only show list on line, but that is not even close to the going price.