Just to throw a spanner into the works I am taking delivery today of some copper hunting bullets in 375 H+H. Would you believe at 155 gn.
Load 76 gn Reloader 10X, magnum primer MV 3507 ft/s and ME 4205 Ft/lbs.
If you set the zero 2" high at 100yds you should be zero at 238yds.
Retained energy at 200yds is still 2613 ft/lbs.
The driving bands keep the pressure right down hence the high velocity.
The terminal ballistics are similar to a Barnes X. The recoil energy should be 26ft/lbs as opposed to 40ft/lbs on a 300gn bullet at 2500 ft/s
I will be using them this year on an impala/kudu cull hunt to test their effectiveness so I'll keep you posted.




Mark

Good looking bullet. Who is making them?

Not to start another never ending debate on twist, but I am just curious; would a bullet this light be stable in common .375 twist barrels??

I'd be interested in them as one more "play toy" to allow me to use my .375H&H for hunting smaller game.
That blasted critter in the photo beside this post would really have to watch out!

quote:

Originally posted by MarkH:

The terminal ballistics are similar to a Barnes X.

Actually, they open up much better at range than the Barnes X (which often punch through with no expansion at range), but the Lutz Moeller bullets also tend to blow off their nose and retain less of their weight than a Barnes X.

Isn't someone at customs going to confiscate those "Blacktip rounds" thinking they're AP.

Hi Harris

I have no idea but I did punch some figures into a ballistics program and the bullet appears to have a very high stability factor. I'll post some pics from the range soon.

Mark

The evidence of the Barnes TSX bullet opening up easily can be seen on the Barnes website - the caption reads:

"Barnes 150-grain Triple-Shock X-Bullet fired from a Federal .308 Winchester factory load. Bullet is shown exiting a two-inch-thick slice of 10 percent 250A Ordnance gelatin. As this photo shows, very little resistance is needed to force the razor-sharp copper petals open."

The picture captures a fully expanded bullet on exit. Barnes mentioned that they re-designed the hole in the tip of the bullet.

Warrior

RULE ONE
dont belive every thing that barnes says...
daniel

Hallo 500 Grain,

and anybody, who cares. You may calulate a bullets Pentration at http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Englisch/Penetration_Calculator_2.html

If You give me the retained Weight and Mushroom size, from the .500" Bullet on the Bullal cow, i will "predict" what it did, after You noticed just 14 Inces.

Regards LutzM.

quote:

Originally posted by M 98:
RULE ONE
dont belive every thing that barnes says...
daniel

I quess the that the perception of Rule No.1 out there gets now replaced with Rule No.2 being a picture of an actual event.

Warrior

I might be wrong, but I understand that length of the bullet alone is one of the factors besides the weight per caliber, and then weight per length. Or at least in determining an effective twist. Just courious but I would be interested in the length of these lightwieghts. Is there any formulas or just a rule of thumb that someone could go by in deciding an optimum for a bullet weight to length to caliber ratio? They appear as short as a 235grainer. R.

Warrior-

if you beleive hook, line, and sinker everything a manufacturer tells you in ther advertising copy, then you are of a state of mind to never believer pure logic and actual data from others. For this reason, this post is not for your consumption.

For those who do not take every advertisement they see as pure, unadulterated, gospel, I along with many, many others have actual field experience of Barnes X bullets punching through game animals with zero expansion. And yes, we know what wound cavities look like and can tell if there is or is not expansion.

It should be noted that my experience with Barnes X and TSX bullets has been limited to .284 and .277 calibers. I have heard from others who also claimed to have issues with X bullets in the small calibers that there were no issues with expansion when used in larger calibers-say from .358 and up.

Marc,

The TSX picture can't be lying. There are now plenty field results of happy users of the TSX.

I quess then you must have moved on to a better bullet if they fail to the extent that you seem to hint. I am sure some bullets or lots have failed - that is not denied, but it aslo true for most other bullets.

I have never seen an old Barnes-X fail to open in a .284 caliber and I have been shooting them extensively.

This is what JJS posted on 13 Sep 2005 ... "The Barnes TSX are a significant improvement over the standard X. The TSX haved proved to be very accurate in every rifle we have tested...from 308win, 7mm Rem, 30-378, 338-378, 375H&H, 416Rigby, and 458 Lott. Performance in the field has been excellant from Bobcat, Whitetails, Muleys, Zebra, African Antelope, and Cape Buffalo.

To date I have only recovered one bullet from a slightly quartering/ straight on facing shot with a Buff. That shot hit front shoulder penetrated the entire length of the Buff breaking the back leg and stopping against the hide. The bullet was a perfectly mushroomed "X" that weighed 499 grains. The TSX's are worth a try...."

Warrior

I never said the picture was lying or some sort of fraud. The point I was making is that performance under controlled labratory conditions is often quite different than performance in the field. We have no idea how many rounds Barnes had to shoot to get that perfect picture. I can assure you that even in perfect labratory conditions, you will not get that exact performance every time.

In the intrest of full disclosure, I would like to point out that "labratory testing vs. field experience" (or "advertising vs. real world" if you will) is a particularly sensitive subject for me. When I was in engineering graduate school, I personally conducted thousands of hours of tests, as well as managed the testing for an entire program. When real money is on the line, there is a tendency to focus on the "good" and find a way to rationalize away the "bad." I have also worked for an advertising agency in a previous life and can assure you with full certainty that data is manipulated until the desired result can be fed to the public with a reasonably straight face. I also have many stories along these that I could tell you about yet another previous life when I was in outside sales.

This is the last I post I am making in this thread, as it appears to be degenrating in a direction I have no desire or time to go.

Marc,

I understand your point that manufacturers may always try to portray the best side of their bullets. All I am trying to say is that we do have many happy users of the TSX that have no reason to cheat and we have seen quite a few pictures right here on AR of retrieved bullets from game and the collective field evidence will ultimately stand on its own legs.

Warrior

Sorry guys but this is all a prety silly argument. Bullet performance is likly to be more consistant in the lab than the field simply beacuse there are factors in the field you cant control.
There are no perfect bullets.
For north america I think the barnes tripple shocks are great game bullets.
But there are so many uncontolable things involved in terminal performance.
One of my hunting buddies for whom I load shoots a 300 win mag. He loves the 180 grain nosler balistic tip, for deer and elk. When the acubond came out, I recomended he use the b-tip for deer and the acubond foe elk.
he said no thanks.
he has killed I think 4 elk, all bulls , with the balistic tip and none went more than 10 feet.
I would choose somthing else but that does not make him rong. He says bring me the ones with the green tip !
...tj3006

Some TSX analysis:

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/faqbarrelwear.html

MarkH-

What is the rate of twist on your .375 H&H barrel?

Do you need a faster twist to stabalize the lighter bullets?

Thanks in advance.

You people amaze me. Someone wants to buy a 375 Ultra Mag or a 378 weatherby to have more velocity with a normal bullet weight for the caliber and you riducle them. Then you all turn around go crazy over a bullet in a 375 H&H that is a good weight for a bullet in a 270.

I once shot a 150 lb Sitka Black tail buck thru the heart at right around 100 yrds with a 200 gr Barnes X bullet...It was in 338 dia . I fired the bullet from my Ruger 338 win mag. That load chronographed 2950 fps at the muzzel...At the shot the deer reared up on its hind legs and took off..It ran about 130 yrds and with out Divine intervention I wouldn,t have found that deer....The first clue to its whereabouts was the ball of its left femur lying on the muskeg ...The deer was lying dead about 10 yrds beyond that point....The guy I was with , I think thot I had botched the shot as I took the shot offhand......The biggest part of the deer,s heart was the bottom tip ...The wound was thru and thru and about 4" diameter... Did the X bullet fail ,,,NOPE... Is the average deer tougher than twisted couger poop,, Ya....But what this proves is Nothing....I,ve had instantaines kills with lots of different diameter bullets in comprable size animals with simular shots and have also had them run off...I relly prefer the old X bullets and never had an expansion problem with them......But I did have alot of one shot , impressive kills,, with them on animals up to 900 lbs.. And I have never recovered one....The 400 gr. X bullet w/ muzzel velocity of 2380 fps usually expands to .9 " Wish they still made that bullet...But that is a rant for a different time and place......With a 230 gr expanding bullet in 416 dia . and with the other 416 dia bullets available , there is scarce need for any other caliber for ALL big game hunting !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by MarkH:
I have no idea but I did punch some figures into a ballistics program and the bullet appears to have a very high stability factor. I'll post some pics from the range soon.
Mark

What twist rate did you punch in?

I wonder why the GS website 500 grains keeps pointing to, on more threads than this, never actually says, "this is a Barnes TSX?" It could just as well be a walterhog wannbe.

Sorry if I think G.S. logic is flawed ,, Or perhaps his logic is to sell bullets by makeing X bullets seem to be flawed .....But the example given in the link appear to show that the GS bullet would have greater perisitic drag than the Barnes Tri Shok. Also since the rear driveing band seals the bore I can,t see how the flame gets past it ...The fact that there is room for the displaced metal in no way means the flame will get thru ...How can it ???????the seal is complete,,,,,,The groove and the land around the circumfrence of the bullet seal it.......Danie Joubert had a very good article on just this subject in one of the Big Bore Journal,s .....I can,t find my copy of it just now.......I,m relly looking fwd to useing some GS Custom bullets ... But Since X bullets first came out every bullet maker has berated them and yet they just keep working and working well!!!!!!!!! While on the subject ,, Does anyone know if HT bullets are still made ?????Thank you ....

Hi Guys

My 375 has a twist rate of 1:10. I calculated the LM bullet will stabilise in as low as 1:26.
I dont understand the logic on the GS Custom website about undersized shanks causing problems with pressure and throat erosion

Jarrod. Isnt it a good feeling to be amazed once in a while.
We only have two choices with velocity, increase the energy and consequently the pain or reduce the weight and friction.

onefunzr2,

quote:

never actually says, "this is a Barnes TSX?" It could just as well be a walterhog wannbe.

It could well be any grooved bullet, including those we experimented with in 1996. The illustrations on our website are to illustrate what an undersized bullet looks like after the trip down the barrel, so that one can recognise it when you see it.

gumboot458,

quote:

Or perhaps his logic is to sell bullets by makeing X bullets seem to be flawed .....But the example given in the link appear to show that the GS bullet would have greater perisitic drag than the Barnes Tri Shok

We do not mention TSX bullets, because the problem of undersize bullets and gas blow by is applicable to all bullets. To get a GSC drive band bullet through the leade and fully engraved, requires only the displacement of the drive band material. The displaced material is pushed aside and not compressed into the shank of the bullet. On a similar length smooth sided or grooved bullet, the displaced material is of at least three times greater volume and the displaced material has to be compressed into the shank of the bullet. On a grooved bullet, only the material immediately ahead of the groove is displaced into the groove and the pictures show how small a volume that is, compared to the total material volume that is displaced.

The bottom line is that you can easily tap a well designed drive band bullet through a barrel from chamber to muzzle. Trying that with a smooth or grooved bullet will leave you with a very solidly plugged barrel. The difference in friction/resistance to engraving is huge.

quote:

Also since the rear driveing band seals the bore I can,t see how the flame gets past it

Gas starts blowing past the bullet at the instant that the case neck expands to release the bullet and before the front of the bullet is fully engraved by the rifling. If the bullet is of the correct size, the bore is sealed as soon as the ogive/shank joint is through the freebore and leade. With a drive band bullet of the correct size, the bore is sealed as soon as the front drive band is through the freebore and leade and that is much sooner. If a bullet is under size for the bore/groove dimensions of the barrel, gas will blow by the bullet for the entire trip down the barrel to the muzzle.

This is of less importance when the pressure curve is on the way down, as the real damage is done on the pressure rise part of the curve, while the bullet is going from the case, through the freebore and leade, into the bore. Gas blow by is far more destructive than the total volume of gas and the smaller the orifice the gas is forced through, the more destructive the effect is. The testing in this regard was done by Lloyd Brownell many decades ago, so the industry has no excuse for making under size bullets. We all know what the consequences are.

MarkH,

quote:

I dont understand the logic on the GS Custom website about undersized shanks causing problems with pressure and throat erosion

We do not say that under size shanks cause problems with pressure, you must have misread that. In fact the converse is true. Undersize bullets reduce pressure due to the gas that escapes around it and engraving pressure is also reduced. This allows you to use more powder to sustain the pressure rise phase of the pressure curve for longer and so increase speed. Undersize shanks allow gas to blow by the bullet because there is a gap between the barrel wall and the surface of the bullet. The smaller the gap, the higher the level of cutting will be. Surely that is not a difficult concept to grasp?

On the subject of bullet length: The longer the bullet, the faster the twist should be and the shorter the bullet the slower the twist required for good stability. Faster (also called tighter) twist means a smaller number and slower twist means a bigger number.

Gerard

Thanks for the explanation

Mark

I use the bullets from Lutz Möller since last year in my .416 Rigby. Bullet weight is 255 grs., my Vo is 3140 fps with 104 grs. Bofors RP3. If you set the zero 2" high at 100yds you should be zero at 264 yds.
Until now all my expectations on game have been surpassed with ease. Excellent terminal performance and outstanding accuracy. All game I shot died on the spot or within a few meters. No spoiled or bloodshot meat at shots trough both shoulders. Oh, i forgot to mention that I don't have the plastic tipped bullets, I still have and love the older design without the plastic tip and with the open hollow point. I prefer them because they are shorter and you can seat them further out of the case to gain more case capacity. Another point is, that the siedewalls of the new, plastic tipped bullets ist at least twice as thick as the older ones and I doubt that the terminal performance will be as good as the terminal performance of the older ones are, but we'll see.
Lutz Möller is open for everything I think, I have spoken to him several times and he is very flexible in customers requests. When it comes to what is good and what isn't, he is clever enough to reintroduce proven designs.
If my testing with these bullets will satisfy me also in the near future and also in other calibers, I'll switch to them without any doubt in other calibers. If he gives me reasonable prices, but I'm sure he will...

Just back from the range

Vel 3310 fps
4 shot group 16mm
Retained weight of bullet from sand 75%
Charge 73.3 gn Relaoder 10x
3" high at 100 yds gives a MPB od 334 yds




Mark

Can you get these in th USA?
JD

Lutz is on this post so you can PM him to see availability.

Mark

I need some for my 378 Wby!

Pop:
Going prairie dog hunting in South Dakota... shooting from Cheyenne? A .378 Wea with that bullet, whew.
I do want some for my H&H.

Gerard ;; Thank you for the explanation..From the picture I thot what I was seeing was a grooved bullet where the grooves wern,t deep enough .. Which is why I thot it would have drag simular to a non grooved bullet........... Quite probably the Triple Shock bullet isn,t the greatest bullet in the world .. But it , your GS custom HV , and even the original X bullets work so well ....The arguement isn,t over success or failur but rather the more perfact success.. .. Until joining this AR forums I was unaware of your bullets......Again thank you for your time........Gumboot..

quote:

Originally posted by LutzM:
Hallo 500 Grain,

and anybody, who cares. You may calulate a bullets Pentration at http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Englisch/Penetration_Calculator_2.html

If You give me the retained Weight and Mushroom size, from the .500" Bullet on the Bullal cow, i will "predict" what it did, after You noticed just 14 Inces.

Regards LutzM.

Hi Lutz,

I think that my article gave the retained weight. That text is on an old computer of mine so it is not so convenient to look up, although I can do so if you want. The diameter was .366 after the nose shed.

Best regards.

quote:

Hi Lutz,

I think that my article gave the retained weight. That text is on an old computer of mine so it is not so convenient to look up, although I can do so if you want. The diameter was .366 after the nose shed.

Best regards.

Hi 500grains,

we talk about a Buffalo cow , shot with a .500" Bullet and the Left-over-diameter was .366". I wonder whether we mix some Wheigt and Size dimensions. I would not like to make Joke aout of myself, by fiddling with unknown Numbers.

Given,

1. Initial Weight and Caliber
2. Final Weight and Caliber
3. Impact Speed

i will calculate any Pentration in Meat or Bone. The Model has been proven may times. It stems back to a French Army officer Poncelet ho was with Napolen in Russia, spend some Time in Russian War Capture an passed his Leisure devleoping Calculus for Penetration.

LutzM
: I jea

Lutz, the bullet on the left above is a GS Custom 9.3 mm HV, while the one on the right above is your bullet. I was referring to that pic in my prior post.


Referring to the pic below, the bullets shown are .510" 570 grain Woodleigh. The one on the right was fired into a cow buffalo's head and lodged in the neck vertebrae.



The entry wound on the buffalo can be seen here:

Hallo 500Grains,

I see the .510“ = 13 mm Woodleigh jacketed Lead bullet opened up 93%, or from 12.95 mm to 25 mm, almost an Inch. I have no Speed and assume 650 m/s Speed on Impact and fully kept 40 g Mass. Whiz, Bang:

Meat Penetration = 30 cm Penetration.

Bone Penetration (cross) = 7.74 cm

Bone Penetration (length) = 4,5 cm

Obviously the Bone penetrations are not realistic, as You Pictures on the right exhibits a quite distorted Woodleigh jacketed lead bullet with different Size and Weight. This is the Problem with soft Bullets (Lead Bullets). I would like to say “They do, what they want!†Of Course they have no Will and do what Physics dictate, but to predict that, one needs to know the Target in Detail, as their Behaviour upon Impact could be dubbed “analogâ€.

Quit in Contrast is the desired Behaviour from the Hunters Viewpoint. He (or should I say “Iâ€) wants a Bullet that behave predictably, that is always the same on any Game, means on any Resistance. You realize that with a Bullet that has two Characteristics.

1. Change the Shape on from the Air liner to the Meat hitter upon Impact on any reasonable expectable Speed and Resistance.
2. Leave a hard hitting Rest, to perform well on Bone, when it comes.

Analog behaving Lead bullets can’t do that. So I call the good Big game bullet a “digital†Bullet. It behaves either as an (Fragmenter or Deformer, just as designed) on Meat, or as a Penetrator on Bone, leave the Fragments or the Mushroom crimp behind. In case of this well designed and proven “digital†Behaviour, one can surely predict the Bullet behaviour.

You saw in the Example, my model fails on Lead in a Buffalo Head, partly because I got no Numbers, partly because the Head is not predictable in itself. Such is Life. I do want to change Buffalos Head. I have to take it as it comes. But I can Make You bullets that handle such Situation predictably. And You will wonder, how small they could be and still perform safely and nicely. Smaller Bullets give better handling Rifles and then You hit better with greater Ease.

Faulty constructed Bullets need an enormous Margin for Error the keep the Hunter on dangerous Game on the safe Side. They become bigger and bigger. That makes them trickier and nastier to handle. Tricky and nasty Rifles do not lead to pleasant shooting, more to flinching. But any Hunter knows, You must hit the right Spot to kill. This cannot be replaced. So an easier handling Rifle (with less Weight and Recoil) is in my humble opinion the better Rifle.

Good Bullets with predictable and proven Performance on Meat, Bone, Horne and whatever, open the Chance, to remove unnecessary large Margins for Error to yield lighter and more pleasing Rifles. Good Bullets also bring the Fun back to Training, as they take the Pain from Blast and Recoil. I think, that’ something to concern.

LutzM

Hallo 500 Grains

My three-banded-9,3-mm Bullet looks quite like a 2005 Destroyer. You may see the whole Picture (with may Pictures) of the full Desaster 9,3x64 Destroyer 2005

The 12 g Bullet shed 4,5 g Fragments, way too much for anything else than a Hyena, you need to stop but definitely do not want to eat. Some Austrian Customers asked for such Performance, hoping to reduce Flight distances thereby, but that does not work. To keep the shot Animal close to where it was, when shot, you should disturb it less, not more. Hear shots usually disturb a lot, as the Heart is well connected to the Nerve System and the Vagus runs near by. Most animal jump on a Heart shot and run.

Oppositely plain Lung shots hit an Organ without Nerves (except) for the big Blood vessels and the big Tubes). Especially when You shoot Game on far Distances in the Lungs, further away than 200 m, the Game often does nothing after the Bang (as if You missed), but falls in it Track 15 Seconds later.

Now this is the kind of Trick, to keep shot Animal on the Spot. Long distance shooting again requires flat Trajectory and an easy handling Rifle, not to heavy, not too nasty. The Bullet must impact on the right spot. This is light year more important, which Bullet You shoot.

So after the Destroyer time I recalled another Year in Africa with Bullets lacking all that Destruction. It was 6,5 mm Copper in Africa. You may kill quite large Animals with astonishingly small Bullets.

The initial Wound between the small 6,5 mm Bullets and the 9,3 mm Destroyer were on a relative Scale 1: 4.5. No Do You expect from a Bullet with 4,5-times larger “Destruction power†the Animals to run 90% less? The Answer is, no, that does not happen. In Reality no Correlation could be found. In both cases about 20 - 30 Animal of various Size were studied.

So nowadays, my Bullet are different, as Models paired with Experience mature. The nice thing about my “digital†Bullets is: You know, what You get, before You buy, load, test or hunt. The Bullets are fully describes in all necessary Aspects for the Hunter and he can rely on those Numbers. I know no other Manufacturer in the World, who offers that.

If People want my advice, I will give it. I People want custom Bullets against it they can have those as well to play, if they do not believe me. Money buys a lot of Things and when You spend it, You decide.

LutzM

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
I never said the picture was lying or some sort of fraud. The point I was making is that performance under controlled labratory conditions is often quite different than performance in the field. We have no idea how many rounds Barnes had to shoot to get that perfect picture. I can assure you that even in perfect labratory conditions, you will not get that exact performance every time.

In the intrest of full disclosure, I would like to point out that "labratory testing vs. field experience" (or "advertising vs. real world" if you will) is a particularly sensitive subject for me. When I was in engineering graduate school, I personally conducted thousands of hours of tests, as well as managed the testing for an entire program. When real money is on the line, there is a tendency to focus on the "good" and find a way to rationalize away the "bad." I have also worked for an advertising agency in a previous life and can assure you with full certainty that data is manipulated until the desired result can be fed to the public with a reasonably straight face. I also have many stories along these that I could tell you about yet another previous life when I was in outside sales.

This is the last I post I am making in this thread, as it appears to be degenrating in a direction I have no desire or time to go.

My controled lab is shooting deer with them and they always work perfect as advertised. I guess you found a lemon and there is a lemon in everything.

quote:

The initial Wound between the small 6,5 mm Bullets and the 9,3 mm Destroyer were on a relative Scale 1: 4.5. No Do You expect from a Bullet with 4,5-times larger “Destruction power†the Animals to run 90% less? The Answer is, no, that does not happen. In Reality no Correlation could be found. In both cases about 20 - 30 Animal of various Size were studied.

Sounds complicated or I am confused.

Warrior