I recently saw an ad to sell a Marlin 1895 Guide Gun on another forum I frequent. One of the posters that posted to the thread referenced the Hornady H.I.T.S. calculator. In the poster's logic the Hornady calculator shows anything over 1500 qualifies the round for African "Dangerous Game" and anything over 2100 suitable for elephant. Therefor the 405 gr. 45-70 qualifies as an Elephant gun with a H.I.T.S score of 2115.

Hornady H.I.T.S. scale

I tinkered around with the calculater a little with various calibers, according to H.I.T.S my 300 Win Mag is suitable for African Dangerous Game. I found these numbers from the calculator to be vastly misleading, with a 300 gr. 375 @ impact velocity of 2450 the H.I.T.S shows to be 2242. This to most here would be marginal for DG especially Elephant (no I'm not starting an argument here, I know many have used the H&H very sucessfully on DG).

I know Hornady has contributed a lot to the big bore community, the numbers from this calculator surprised me greatly with such a low score for DG. From the looks of it a better minimum for DG would be 2100 with El around 3000.

Anyone have the formula they use for this calculator? I know that Hornady is out to sell ammo, but I found this to be misleading.

Cheers,
Sam

I'd like to know more too. It seems a little crude to me. My .243 with 85 grain bullets isn't quite big enough for deer (Get up Bambi! You're not dead!) while my .30-06 with 168 grain bullets is sufficient for moose and bison. Hmmmm.

LWD

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Remember, H.I.T.S. is merely a guideline to help you choose the proper bullet/cartridge combination. Be sure to consider impact velocity and bullet construction and select a bullet that is appropriate for your situation.

'Nuff said.

George

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Originally posted by GeorgeS:

quote:

Remember, H.I.T.S. is merely a guideline to help you choose the proper bullet/cartridge combination. Be sure to consider impact velocity and bullet construction and select a bullet that is appropriate for your situation.

'Nuff said.

George

George, I realize it is just a guide however I expect the guide to be accurate. A ruler is a guide, if I order a barrel 22" in length I don't want to receive one 27", LOL.

According to the statement if I load my 300 with 200 gr. A-Frames with a 50 yd. impact velocity of 2600 it should be adequate for lion. After all the same bullet in my 416 at 400 gr. with the same impact velocity is more than acceptable for lion.

Cheers,
Sam

Hornady should have called me, or second best read African Rifles and Cartridges.

It is absurd what HITS suggest as adequate for dangerous game.

I suppose it is a felt need to say something about their ammunition, but has suffered a failed start.

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Originally posted by Shorty4T:
George, I realize it is just a guide however I expect the guide to be accurate. A ruler is a guide, if I order a barrel 22" in length I don't want to receive one 27", LOL.

According to the statement if I load my 300 with 200 gr. A-Frames with a 50 yd. impact velocity of 2600 it should be adequate for lion. After all the same bullet in my 416 at 400 gr. with the same impact velocity is more than acceptable for lion.

Cheers,
Sam

Rulers are marked according to accepted standards, so your analogy is invalid.

There is no definitive formula for 'adequacy' on game, dangerous or otherwise There are only attempts to define one.

Some favor velocity; others favor bullet weight or meplat size. None really take bullet construction into consideration.

As far as I am concerned, the H.I.T.S. is a miss.

George

quote:

Originally posted by Shorty4T:

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:

quote:

Remember, H.I.T.S. is merely a guideline to help you choose the proper bullet/cartridge combination. Be sure to consider impact velocity and bullet construction and select a bullet that is appropriate for your situation.

'Nuff said.

George

George, I realize it is just a guide however I expect the guide to be accurate. A ruler is a guide, if I order a barrel 22" in length I don't want to receive one 27", LOL.

According to the statement if I load my 300 with 200 gr. A-Frames with a 50 yd. impact velocity of 2600 it should be adequate for lion. After all the same bullet in my 416 at 400 gr. with the same impact velocity is more than acceptable for lion.

Cheers,
Sam

So a 200 grain A-Frame at 2600 fps won't kill a lion if hit in the vitals?

Agreed George, the H.I.T.S does fall short. I would have expected a more accurate tool from a company like Hornady that has put so much into DG ammunition development.

Scott, I never said that a 300 wouldn't kill a lion, anything can be take as long as it's hit in the vitals. Roy Weatherby hunted everything with a 257 Weatherby to prove a point but most people don't normally size a rifle for when everything goes right.

Cheers,
Sam

Limits you to only 800 grains in bullet weight...

Guess that leaves me out...

This is no better or worse than that old yardstick, the Taylor Knockout Value.

It is good on paper, but has absolutely nothing to do with reality.

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This is no better or worse than that old yardstick, the Taylor Knockout Value.

Them is fighting words!

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Originally posted by Shorty4T:
Agreed George, the H.I.T.S does fall short. I would have expected a more accurate tool from a company like Hornady that has put so much into DG ammunition development.

Scott, I never said that a 300 wouldn't kill a lion, anything can be take as long as it's hit in the vitals. Roy Weatherby hunted everything with a 257 Weatherby to prove a point but most people don't normally size a rifle for when everything goes right.

Cheers,
Sam

Actually just having some fun. If I was hunting a lion, I would want the biggest freakin gun I could handle.

Late to the party as usual, but I was curious how the H.I.T.S. factor was calculated. I looked at the Javascript coding that does the calc, derived the equation, and did a couple of hand checks to verify the formula.

Here 'tis;

HITS = (V x W2)/(700,000 x D2)
V = velocity, fps
W = bullet weight, grains
D = bullet diameter, inches

Note that "W2" means "W squared", likewise for D2.

Obviously, the metric is linearly proportional to velocity times sectional density times bullet weight. If you noodle around with it, you'll come up with all sorts of oddities, like a 300 grain .375 having a higher score than a 300 grain .416.

Oh, my goodness! What horse puckey! Hornady should know better than this!
I've come up with better formulas than that and I don't even like my own!
All I expect from Hornady is to continue to put out decent ammo at decent prices.

quote:

Originally posted by Shorty4T:
I know that Hornady is out to sell ammo, but I found this to be misleading.

Cheers,
Sam

except a COUPLE things
1: hornady doesn't sell a 405gr 45/70
2: the only jacketed 405 is the rem 405, which is a mushroom in terms of toughness
3: there are no PUBLISHED loads of a 45/70 that would have an impact vel of over 1900fps.. 4: dangerous game ranges from lions (which i would use a rem 405 at 2250fps from a 458 AR on in a second) to elephant
5: a "perfect" lion bullet would BOUNCE off an elephant, perhaps causing a soccer ball sized wound crater. perhaps even stunned the elephant for a couple seconds, but in no means humane or ethical kill
6: the 45/70, in any realistic loading, is not legal in terms of ME for elephants, anywhere they can be legally hunter
7: if one can afford an elephant hunt, why in the hell take a bison round?

I made game calculator in excell. It takes into account energy, secional density, and momentum.

so even if you have a high energy, you still need the momentum for the larger game and if you have that, but the bullet is light for caliber, the sectional density stops it from being suitable for super heavy game.

So far it does a good job of not choosing game that the round is not suitable for.

quote:

HITS = (V x W2)/(700,000 x D2)
V = velocity, fps
W = bullet weight, grains
D = bullet diameter, inches

Note that "W2" means "W squared", likewise for D2.

quote:

Late to the party as usual, but I was curious how the H.I.T.S. factor was calculated. I looked at the Javascript coding that does the calc, derived the equation, and did a couple of hand checks to verify the formula.

Here 'tis;

HITS = (V x W2)/(700,000 x D2)
V = velocity, fps
W = bullet weight, grains
D = bullet diameter, inches

Note that "W2" means "W squared", likewise for D2.

Thanks, Couch.
Ah, the old Right-Click-View-Source-Wade-through-a-Pile-of-Javascript-Code Trick!


Well, since sectional density is supposed to represent penetration, I can understand how it might be included in some kind of game suitability formula. OTOH, you have to consider that sectional density involves the *inverse* of the square of the bullet diameter. In other words, the bullet surface area will be a detriment to game "stopping power"! This explains why this happens in the H.I.T.S. formula:

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[/I tinkered around with the calculater a little with various calibers, according to H.I.T.S my 300 Win Mag is suitable for African Dangerous Game.

What makes this misleading formula so bad is that it comes from an otherwise reputable ammo/component manufacturer like Hornady. Some might misconstrue these figures as gospel and jump to an unwise conclusion as to the power of their cartridge.

My suspicion is that some of these formulas heavily emphasize SD simply because of cup-n-core bullets. For a given amount of powder, more SD means less velocity, less expansion, and more momentum. Problem of course is that you can end up concluding that a 6.5mm RUM is just the ticket for coastal bears or something.

Probably every terminal ballistics formula, like every curve fit, looks good if you only apply it over a narrow range of values. Hell, if you zoom in enough, every curve looks pretty darn linear.

Its sort of amusing, though, to compare the relative ratings of the various formulae against the thumb rules. For example, the mystical 2400 fps threshold for DG, or 1600-1800 ft-lb of kinetic energy for elk, etc. One thing I've learned is how totally inadequate a lot of classic cartridges were. In its early days, the .404 must have been merely bouncing off its intended targets.

I think the arithmetic exercises are good for one thing, and that is to deflate some of the hooey out there. "35 Whelen is a 250 yard cartridge" is an example that cracks me up.

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Probably every terminal ballistics formula, like every curve fit, looks good if you only apply it over a narrow range of values. Hell, if you zoom in enough, every curve looks pretty darn linear.

I agree.
I don't have any problem with attempts at coming up with game suitability formulas. But whoever does so needs to do a lot of testing and then take a very critical look at their findings. And finally file it and forget it for about a year or so. If you look at it again later, you might then see something that makes you go

" What the hell was I thinking???"

Apparently someone didn't do this in the case of the H.I.T.S. formula...

A good way for someone to get hurt.