For many reasons, I've decided to build a 404 Jeffrey. It will be used to shoot for fun, fiddle with various loads, fondle, work on, admire and maybe even hunt with. Since the primary justification for a big bore, for me, is to hunt dangerous game with, I want a rifle that would be the most proficient within the constraints that I've set for this project. Potential hunting scenarios include bear in the CONUS and AK, and various DG in Africa. I do not envision shooting at dangerous game at more than 200 yards with this rifle.

As a starting point, I have a blued/chromoly Winchester Model 70 Classic in 300 RUM with walnut stock. It is a modified CRF with a good adjustable trigger and, hopefully, the correct magazine/feed rail geometry to keep modifications to a minimum. I will rebarrel with a Pac-Nor .423 CM barrel with a 1 in 14" twist. I would like to utilize the existing stock and have the finished product come out around 9 to 9.5 pounds.

The question(s) is(are): What needs to be done? I have already decided on the caliber, action, trigger, barrel and stock so suggestions that I use a different component won't be helpful but I do need advice on how to configure what I have into the best possible DGR within those limitations.

For instance, what barrel contour and length would you use? Given it's intended use and weight restriction, I'm thinking it should be reasonably short and stout, but I have no actual knowledge.

What sighting system? I'm leaning toward a low magnification scope on QD bases with backup irons but I have no experience with these. I've heard a lot of good things about the Brockman/Talley pop up ghost ring setup and it sounds good considering my less than perfect eyesight but I have never used one. Would a NECG banded front sight be a good idea? Would it work well with the Brockman/Talley pop up rear sight or am I better off with an express rear sight? Should I go with a barrel band front sling swivel eyelet? Who's?

In addition to properly bedding the barreled action, is putting one or more crossbolts in the stock necessary or is it OK, as is, since it's already set up for a 300 RUM? The current comb looks like a compromise on the height (although it is parallel). Since I will use the scope most of the time, is this adequate or should I have it lowered a bit for the irons?

I guess I'm asking what you would do to build this gun if you started off with the same pile of parts that I have. Any and all suggestions, sources, tips and warnings are greatly appreciated! Thanks for you time and assistance with my project.

Jim

Jim,
remove the barrel and weigh what is left and that should help you decide what contour to get.

I built mine on a MRC 1999 but the RUM based M-70 is another great starting place.

I bought my dies from CH4D and was happy with them. Others have not had such good fortune.

Install a NECG banded front sight and if you still need weight added you can add a Dakota 1/4 rib.

Definitely install cross bolts behind the recoil lug and ahead of the trigger.

A 1" decelerator is recommended as well.

I don't use a scope on mine as it's meant for under 100 yards and to be pointed at very large targets.

A barrel band is a good idea as well and find some way to hide the swivel stud in the stock.

The 404 is an awesome performer when loaded to it's potential....have a ball.

I suggest making it look like this:

Old Dog,
fredj338 has done what you seem to be thinking about, in walnut and blue.

I used a 300 RUM M70 Classic Stainless to do a 404 Jeffery in stainless and synthetic, The African Sheep Rifle. I used a Brown Precision stock.

BigB did a stainless and synthetic 404 Jeffery with a McMillan stock.

A search would turn up photos of all these if the servers still function.

You should have no problems with feeding, and a handy, strong and accurate rifle capable of anything, sheep to elephant.

My rifle used a no. 4 contour McGowen 10" twist barrel, 24" length.
It weighs 8.5 pounds bare and balances well with the synthetic stock.

You might need a no. 5 contour of 24" length with the wooden stock to balance at 9.5 pounds, just a guess, your mileage may vary. Or maybe a no.4 with a quarter rib?

I have also used a 300 RUM M70 to build a .416 Dakota of similar modern motif.

An M70 makes a nice faux-nostalgic or a super African Sheep Rifle. Stronger than an opened up Mauser, so let'r rip.

Grab any 300 RUM M70's you can find. A 404 Jeffery is the best use for them.

Here is the M70 RUM-boxed 404 Jeffery that screams "Don't tread on me!"



Now where is that classier fredj338 rifle?

Fredj338's M70 Classic started off as a 300 RUM. That is a reshaped factory stock, shortened forend. Dakota quarter rib.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Fredj338's M70 Classic started off as a 300 RUM. That is a reshaped factory stock, shortened forend. Dakota quarter rib.

Ok, very nice but straighten out the bolt handle and she's close to those nice Mauser's!

I am considering building a 404 Jeffery and wondered about a couple of things:

1). How much of a step up from the 375 H & H is it?
2). How difficult is it to obtain brass and bullets; and
3). What is the ability to obtain ammo if your baggage is lost in Africa?

I would intend to use this as a dangerous game rifle (buffalo and elephant).

Thanks for the info.

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by whm7753:
I am considering building a 404 Jeffery and wondered about a couple of things:

1). How much of a step up from the 375 H & H is it?
2). How difficult is it to obtain brass and bullets; and
3). What is the ability to obtain ammo if your baggage is lost in Africa?

I would intend to use this as a dangerous game rifle (buffalo and elephant).

Thanks for the info.

Bill

IMO the 404 is a very real step up from a .375 as it shoots at least 1/3 more bullet, but I see it as a handloaders cartridge.

If one handloads, availability may be a moot point as you won't find a duplication anywhere. The 404 Jeffery is very much available in Johannesburg and other larger towns of Africa. It's not your handloads but better than nothing.

Woodleigh makes excellent bullets for it as do Northfork and others. I don't see bullet availability as good as 416 caliber but it's adequate and brass is available from Norma and Bell.

If being horribly practical was of the essence I'd strongly point you at the 416 caliber.

With that said, I wouldn't hesitate to hunt any of the African species with a well loaded 375 H&H.

The 404 Jeffery was originally made as a bolt action eqivalent to the 450-400, 3" and a 400 gr. bullet at 2150f/s. In a light rifle weighing in at about 8-8.5 lbs this was a fromidible package. Light weight and lethal. Later the velocities were increased to 2200 and then 2350 f/s by RWS. At the slower speeds, it has less recoil than a similarly weighted 375 H&H. The nice thing is that you can light load the rifle to learn to shoot it and then load it up slowly to increase the speed/recoil. It is every bit the equivilant of the 416 Rigby and can be made up in a lighter and trimmer package.

Loaded ammunition is always a problem in Africa. Try finding 416 Rem. Mag. in Johannasburg. I split up my remaining ammo and gave it to two hunters that forgot theirs. They had spent 3 days looking for it all over RSA and could not find a single round. If worries about ammo are your main concern, then shoot a 458 Win mag. One can find it in Africa almost as easy as 375.
The 404 is a loaders meat. Bullets can be had from many sources as well as brass. I can recommend Redding Dies or RCBS. Start loading at the 2150-2200 f/s range until you get used to it.

Pac-nor, Kreiger, Lothar-Walther, and many others make barrels. I like Kreiger and that is a personal preference. The Walther folks can send you out a duplicate of any factory barrel countour. I have made three rifles like the one shown by RIP. The Classic Winchester in 300 RUM is a great place to start. The rifle could duplicate the factory barrel and because of the size of the hole it would weigh in at less. I always used NECG bb sling swivel, bb front sight, and rear sight. It will end up looking nicer that the Classic that came out later. I would have it professionally bedded and the crossbolts will help also. Add a good decelerator pad and a set of quick detatchable rings any you will have a great looking and performing rig.

RIP:

Nice looking Sheep rifle! What made you decide on a 24" barrel? And what do you do for a rear sight? Why did you go with the angled front stud instead of the barrel band mounted stud? And is a hood on the front sight a necessity? I've lost more front sight hoods in my lifetime than I can count! I'm surprised at the #4 contour. Several of the barrel makers I've checked recommend nothing smaller than a #6 for the .423 bore. I'll have to check with McGowen.

Do you know the barrel length on the fredj338 rifle? Can you tell me who reshaped his stock and where he got the quarter rib work done?

vapodog:

Are you familiar with the Kick-eze pads or the Limb Saver pads? Would they be a better alternative to a decelerator? I'd like all the help I can get, but don't want a pad that will tear up if subjected to rough handling. Do you order the NECG front sight by diameter after the barrel dimensions are set? And do you specify a height after chosing a rear sight? Or do you chose the front sight and then specify a height for the real sight? I'll probably either go with a single standing rear that I can file down or with the adjustable Brockman peep rear.

500grains:

That's a beauty but the barrel looks like it's almost a straight cylinder. Any idea what it weighs? And how long is it? It loks like my most difficult task is going to be coordinating all the parts with the barrel length and contour to get a good balance point. For reference, is the front action screw a good balance point?

Does anyone have any experience with the mercury recoil reducers and what they weigh? Are they worth the weight and money compared to their reduction in felt recoil?

So, does everyone with a 404 Jeffrey have a 24" barrel? It seems that the originals all had very long barrels. I would actually prefer the handiness of a shorter 21" to 23" barrel, but don't know if that would be advisable. Thanks for all the great comments, guys! I really appreciate all the great advice!

Jim

I have had a 404 Jeffery with 22" to 24" barrels. The 22" barreled rifle required one extra grain of powder to get to the 2350 f/s I wanted. All of my loads were under maximum. I think a 21-22" Jeffery would be a light fast handeling package for dangerous hunting. Choose the North Fork line up of bullets and you will not want anything else.Keep you velocities reasonable at 2300+f/s and case life will be long enough.

I would suggest that 500gr and RIP have shown the patterns you would do well to emulate.

Rich

Old Dog,
Thanks for not taking offense at my picture of Wild Thang. She makes my heart sing. She is the poster girl for a new breed of African Sheep Rifles.

The rear iron sight on Wild Thang is the detachable NECG peep that fits the QRW Leupold base. Similarly, on my .423 Lapua, I have a Talley peep and base setup. The object is to have a clean rifle barrel that invites my hand to grab and go anywhichway, all day long. Primary sight is the scope, 1.5x-5x Leupold, and a backup 2.5x-8x. The peep is the best iron sight for me, but is only the second-line backup.

Why the 24" barrel length? That was indeed the original length of the Jeffery rifle barrels in a reproduction of an original Jeffery catalog I have from 1913 or thereabouts. Many other rifles from that era did have long barrels, like .425 WR's with 28" barrels, etc.

But of course I am not interested in slavishness to historical correctness, nor political correctness. 24" just works for me on this rifle, and I never want to go less than 23" on any bolt action rifle. I am happiest with 23" to 25" but will tolerate a 22" or a 26" on the extremes.

Allowing a generous 0.125" as a minimum muzzle wall thickness, a no. 4 contour that is 0.675" to 0.700" OD at the muzzle will do nicely for a .423 caliber barrel. Varies with maker on numbering of contours. My McGowen barrel ended up very close to 0.700" at the muzzle when the tapered muzzle end was chopped back to 24" barrel length (including threads of course).

The angled forend tip sling base stud on Wild Thang is what I have evolved to over the decades of my riflery, nothing new, of course. It will not interfere with the palm grip or rest of the forend, no "ouch" surprises. It also allows use of a tight sling as a shooting aid for long range "sheep" and plains game work. A barrel band sling base does not. Wild Thang is about function, not tradition.

The hood on the front sight is necessary to protect the sight when scrambling over kopjes in quest of game. It is an NECG that has a spring loaded push-button plunger that locks the hood in place. I have never lost one of those, but know what you mean regarding lesser hoods. I do have an H&H style fold-down moon bead hiding under that hood too. That is functional. The hood comes off easily enough.

HS Precision makes a nice stock with Kevlar and graphite and an aluminum bedding block for the M70 long action. $279 off the shelf at Sportsman's Warehouse. I use a slip on pad to increase the LOP from standard 13.5" on that ready-made stock.

Fred's barrel is 23" IIRC.

He'll have to answer any other questions about his Classic.

Old Dog, sorry for being so late to the party, but RIP looks like he had me covered, thanks buddy. It sounds like you are looking for my rifle, sorry. not for sale. My .404j has a #5, 23" PAcNor. The front site is NECG flip-up "night" (larger/ivory bead), rear is single standing express on a Dakota 1/4 rib, NECG bbl. swivel. With two cross bolts & one merc. reducer in the butt, it weighs in at 9.5#, add the VXIII 1.5x5 in Leup. QRW mounts & she comes in @ 10.25#. It's about the right weight for me, could be a bit lighter but I can always remove the merc. reducer & lose a quick 1/2#.

It is a handloaders round but then again everything I own lives on handloads, so moot point. Unless you shoot a .270, .30-06. .375 or .458wm, the lost ammo thing is also moot. Ammo availablility in Africa is very limited.
A .416rem maybe a bit easier to get bullets for & brass can be made from .375h&h in a pinch, but the .404j just screams old Africa, even if you build it on a modern M70. BTW, brass can be made from .375RUM in a pinch but it's readily available from Norma, just buy 100rds & you are probably set for life.

Bullets are available from NF, Woodleigh, Barnes & Swift. You can get cheaper Hawk's for practice or make 300gr plinkers from 300gr/44mag bullets. Now that I have a stock of 340grNFs, I am looking for the perfect PG round to go w/ my buffalo load; 380grNF @ 2250fps.

The comb on the factory stock is a bit high for irons but does work if you get the sights up a bit. The factory bedding is crap so I had my guy glass & put in the cross bolts, it looks good & can't hurt. I shortened the forend about 2" so it looked right. It's finished off w/ a Pac. Dec. pad. Anything else I can help you with, shout out.

Old Dog,
Straight from the horse's mouth that fredj338 rode in on. Take note.

Is your walnut stock the same as Fred's, the latest negative drop comb? Or did they make any 300 RUM walnut stocks with the older style Super Express that had some drop at the butt with Monte Carlo comb and cheekpiece?
BTW, I have a third Winchester M70 Classic in 300 RUM, and haven't decided to leave it alone or make another switch barrel out of it. It is a tupperware stocked stainless.

The HS Precision "Sporter Rifle Stock" (2.25 to 2.50 lbs. for the various action types they make) is the most precisely fitting drop-in and best finished I have ever seen. The aluminum bedding all around the action makes crossbolts into a non-issue. It comes with a bit of epoxy bedding material to place on the sides of the action flat and at the tang to center the flat actions like the M70 and Ruger 77 MkII, which is also readily available (on the shelf at Sportsman's Whorehouse). The round actions like the Remington M700 may be directly dropped in and bed themselves into the aluminum. Great product for a beater stock of high quality to save the pretty wood for show-off.

I had to add considerable weight to the Brown Precision stock in crossbolts, pillars and epoxy. I would not do that again if an HS Precision is available, and less expensive!

Fredj338:

Thanks for the response! You're right, it would be simpler if I just bought yours. But since you're going to be like that, I'll just have to muddle through myself. That's half the fun! Great information. I'm looking to finish up closer to 9.5 pounds all up, if possible.

Does the recoil reducer make a big difference? What would it do to the balance of your gun? I'd thought about going with the Brockman/Talley bases with the pop-up peep sight and foregoing the quarter rib, so that might lose me a couple of ounces and I guess I could go 22" on the barrel and lose a couple more. I really like the shorter forend. Was it exactly 2" or did you just swag it? I'm assuming it a regular bluing job and not a rust blue, correct?

Who did the bedding work? I don't have any experience with a DGR, so I'm guessing you don't want to do a free-floating pillar bedding job. I probably should pull a benchrest trick and epoxy it in. Just kidding, I think.

I've always used Pacy Decelerators myself, but noticed various people really singing the praises of the newer Kick-Eze and Limb Saver pads. Do you have any experience with these?

RIP:

The comb on mine looks parallel with the bore so I think it's the same as Fred's. It looks a little high for irons, but the pop-up peep on the Brockman/Talley sits above the rear base and it's kind of high too, so it should be fine for emergency iron work. That's one reason I'm leaning in that direction. I kinda hate to forego that classy quarter rib but I'll console myself with all the money I'm saving.

If I wanted to go synthetic, I have one of D'arcy Echols' McMillan stocks from one of his high end Model 70s that would fit (except the rear of the loading port cut out extends bach an extra 3/4"). It's heavy, but it really soaks up the recoil. Maybe that will be my next project.

Thanks for all your great responses and suggestions! If you can think of anything you would do if it was your gun, please let me know.

Jim

for 500 grain


they just don't get it.

your recommendation "make it look like this" says it all

that mauser style with all the right touches has it all. it doesn't require a plastic stock etc. the scope in proper claw mounts is real icing on the cake.

you are a lucky man to own such a rifle ! tom

quote:

the Brockman/Talley bases

are fragile.

OD, I had my gunsmith glass bed the action & crossbolts. I am not sure if the exact amount of forend was 2", but it wasn't more than that. The 1/4 rb was actually pretty cheap, about $250 installed. They are semi polished & come in diff. contours to match most bbls. profils, fitting was minimal. The reducer adds about 7-8oz. It is supposed to help w/ recoil by movement of the mercury but I'm not sure just adding 8oz of weight in the butt wouldn't do the same thing. I like the balance, it's pretty neutral w/ the heavier bbl. Drop to a #4 contour & loose 1/2#. The blue is rust but over a bead blasted finish, after all, it's a hunting rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I suggest making it look like this:

An m70 to look like a classic98? I think not.
It would be like those guys wanting a Porche, but using a lifeless Chev or Ford chassis and just putting a 911 style fibreglass shell over the top.
two things that stand in history as great tried tested and effective weapons, The Roman Gladius and the M98.
The m70 is more liken to a Barbarian club.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I suggest making it look like this:

An m70 to look like a classic98? I think not.
It would be like those guys wanting a Porche, but using a lifeless Chev or Ford chassis and just putting a 911 style fibreglass shell over the top.
two things that stand in history as great tried tested and effective weapons, The Roman Gladius and the M98.
The m70 is more liken to a Barbarian club.

All the fellow would have to do is toss the M70 action, get a good pre-war M98, sights and stuff from Recknagel, and a good gunsmith to put it all together.

Yeah for $2500+. The M70 is a fine replica OD, don't let the M98 snobs get you down.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I suggest making it look like this:

Can you give us more info on this rifle? Really a beauty. Thanks for posting it.

fredj338,
They definitely caved in a few Roman skulls when in the correct hands.
Im sure the M70-404J will perform A.O.K


Happy Building and hunting to u Old Dog!

Lawndart:

Could you give me a little more information on your experience with the Brockman/Talley pop-up peep sight. I hadn't heard that they were particularly fragile but I sure don't want back-up sights that won't stand up.

The rifle posted by 500grains is a real classic beauty but my preference runs in different directions. I'm kind of neutral on M98 actions. I don't mind them but I don't feel that they haven't been improved upon in 100 years, either. I'd like this one better if someone hadn't cut away the entire left receiver wall. The stock turns me off totally for a personal DGR rifle. Too much drop, no recoil pad, funny raised ovals on the side of the stock and a schnauble forend. Just personal opinion and not meant as a criticism of anyone else's preferences. If I wanted a classic, I would probably buy one. What I'm looking for is a completely practical rifle that meets my perceived needs using what I have on hand. Once that's done, I'll try to make it look as traditional as I can without compromising the original intent.

Thanks for the encouragement, Woodjack. While we all have different ideas about what is best, I'm getting great input to help me sort out all the different options. Thanks guys!

Jim

If it were my money I'd want it to look like this from www.westleyrichards.com
Guess I don't know how to post a picture but here is the url http://www.westleyrichards.com/gun/used_guns_2_product.php?id=24868

Hi,
Built mine from the best of two worlds, British Ale (.404 Jeffery) and Czech Pilsner (Brno ZG-47)



Will test it with 450 grain Stewart Hi Performer's at some 2150 fps!

Husky

I'd get a number 5 barrel, I'd have it no longer than 22 inches, more like 21, and use iron sights. There are so many options: quarter rib, express, or just plain ol' remington or WW take offs. be sure to have a barrel band swivel.

Use a synthetic or laminated stock, and enjoy hunting with it. Kudude

quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
The m70 is more liken to a Barbarian club.

ARGH! There are far worse fates than to walk the plank of life with an M70 Winchester .404 Jeffery in hand. I suspect some of these twitterpated nostalgics bunk with the cabin boy, and extend their pinky fingers on both hands when popping their light loads. The M70 can handle pressures and velocities that will scuttle an opened up Mauser standard 98.

Good choice, Old Dog.

I just completed a similar project. I wanted a reliable tool, not a pretty safe queen. I started with a M70 Stainless Classic. Harry McGowen put on the barrel. I used the M70 Safai Express contour but a little wider at the muzzle to accomodate an NEC banded front sight with a fiber optic insert and their windowed sight hood, with an NEC express rear sight, 23" long for the barrel length. Got the mag box from MRC and used the Williams one-piece bottom metal. Put it all in a D'Arcy Echols stock with a mercury recoil reducer in the butt with a modest Pachmayr pad. I put a Brockman forearm swivel mount on as an alternative to a barrel band. Balances superbly, easy to carry, very accurate. 75 gr Varget and anyone's 400 gr bullets gives you a rifle old ladies in a wheelchair can shoot but will still get the job done. Brass is easy to make from 375 RUM brass. You're going to love your 404. Good luck, Russ Green.

Just copy this: Type A Mauser

quote:

Could you give me a little more information on your experience with the Brockman/Talley pop-up peep sight. I hadn't heard that they were particularly fragile but I sure don't want back-up sights that won't stand up.

Hi Old Dog,

This is a neat journey you are starting on.
My benchmark for a pop-up peep is the one on the old Brno 602 rifles (as an aside, their cocking piece covers make the new CZ 550 models look so tacky by comparison).

I believe it was Marc Stokeld (sp?) that recently showed pictures of a 550 he had worked over. He built up the rear action bridge and put in a pretty stout peep. Windage is adjusted with a brass drift, and elevation by changing the height of the front sight. If you can't find the pictures with a search, pleasse PM me and I'll e-mail them to you.

If you are younger than forty you will do fine with a rear blade sight on an island or a quarter rib. Over forty and the peep will work a lot better for you.

If you just use the Talley sight for emergencies, it should do ok. It will be protected by the scope most of the time. If you are going to use the peep a lot (pretty fast for aiming, and nice for swinging if there is sufficient light - often the case) you may find it lightly built. I put one on a Winchester that I am in the process of gutting before the remodel, and dropped it while standing on the tailgate of a pickup to see what would happen. The rear scope base hit first, and the peep popped.

Define your use; that will guide your choice. I have been toying with the idea of milling Sako style cuts in the bases of a CZ. The Sako peep sight is very robust, and the peep is a good size (you can also bore it out for faster work). Those are always on e-bay. If you are patient you can get a good one for $50.00. For $100.00 you cqan get a nice one any time.

LD

If I where building it off a model 70
Stock, since gathering a true classic stock will be tough, i would start with a PATTERN off www.gunstocks.com , either the Freischütz Classic or Oberndorf Classic, and rework, then have someone like Mike Kakolus turn it.

Barrel - pacnor #3 if they will do it, 1x14, 23", a number 4 of they won't do a 3, but a #4 will move your weight up some

installation - pacnor will do an excellent job, if you like, or Dennis olsen.


sights, necg universal banded, talley barrel band, and the rear sight is up to the user. the necg classic rear is adjustable for windage and elevation. The universal has elevation adjustment.

wood, quarterswan turkish or english, price to tastes

checkering - call bill soverns and get what you want. he will do a GREAT job.

bases, for me, warne QD and rings, but david christman does an EXCELLENT squarebridge conversion.

crossbolts - dual cross bolts and a pin down the wrist, ebony capped.

recoil pad.. while a limbsaver is sweet to shoot, it's a little heavy for a 9.5# with a heavy barrel.

final feeding - send it to Dennis, along with 4 dummies of each type of bullet you want. of course, if it feeds northforks, it will probably feed everything, but best to check.

My only suggestion, if you are open to a quarterrib, is to get a shilen barrel, and then a dakota quarter rib with a 1 standing, 1 folding insert, and have a realy good smith install them. David Christman is an excellent choice on this.

Williams bottom metal, one piece.

jeffe