Black bear season is a little more than a month away. Got my money back from Cabela's from the Sabatti,so I'am going to use the 458 Lott CZ. Thought I would load it down, what would the maximum velocity be for the Remington 405gr. bullets, before they turn into grenades. I have loaded them in a 45-70 to 1900 FPS and shot several medium size bears,with very little tracking or blood shot meat. Even found one that broke both shoulders and was about 1" in a tree root, it weighed 308 gr.

I loaded a few round to test Reloader #7 70gr. Federal 215M 2275 FPS it will shoot 1 1/4" groups.

I shot a kudu on the shoulder once with these at 1870 fps and it broke up. I would not run them more than 1600 fps at the muzzle for best performance.

Michael

I've shot several gemsbok with them in a 45-70 and 450M. Loaded from 1850-2000fps with impacts between 80-125yds.

In all cases, no pass through. In all cases the jackets separated from the cores. The slower ones flattened to just about the size of a quarter and the faster ones almost became round balls. By the time the bullets passed through the onside shoulders the holes were big enough you could pass a golf ball through them. Nearly zero bloodshot meat. Very hard visible impact reactions from the animals.

I think the lead core is soft enough that it won't actually turn into "grenades" unless you REALLY push them and then the soft lead would "spatter" on impact and have very little penetration. I did notice the faster ones didn't penetrate as deep as the slower ones.

I think Michael458 is pretty spot on with the optimum velocity for them.

at 2600, they are grenades .. at 2200, that's the absolute limit, they are grenades, also, but will exit sometimes..

your bear are what, 250# for a boar?

I use this bullet in a training load for my 460 G&A. At 2200 fps they have never failed or fragmented.

M

I will tell you this, they are extremely accurate, cheap to shoot, and I always keep 500 or so laying around. I have used them many times to work up loads in all sorts of 458 cartridges for 400 gr or so bullets. They are incredible for that, then once you get to where you want to be, then you can switch over to the other bullet you want to use, such as a 400 gr North Fork. Works every time!

Excellent for shooting and having fun with too, like I said, extremely accurate at all velocities I have shot them at.

Just don't exceed 1600 fps or so at the muzzle, and they are a good general purpose bullet for light game. Exceed that limit, they will fail you eventually and you will have a problem.

Michael

Don't mean to hijack the thread but how about the 400 grain Speers?

The bears we get are between 200#-300#, I try to shoot only boars, only one sow in 30+ years. There is one very large boar I've been after for 5 years now he is as tall as a upright 55 gallon barrel when standing on his four feet.

What I should do is maybe start with the load I used in my Marlin 45-70. 50 gr. of Reloader #7 1850 FPS.

I do have a couple hundred Winchester 510gr. soft points. Maybe load them to 1800-1900 FPS. I understand they are not the best dangerous game bullet. Black bears would maybe a good use for them.

coyote

OK, want to use your lott, want to knock them around a bit, and you got a big boar to hammer eh? Good advice, but it's free, so it's worth only as much as you pay for it, but if you pay attention, it will be spot on. Get yourself some 350 or 400 gr North Forks, run them any velocity you want to run and are comfortable with, or, I will send you some 370 gr BBW##13 NonCons, run them any velocity you want and are comfortable with, and if you get a chance at this big bear, then you will turn him "inside" out, once and for all. There won't be any question about if the bullet did it's job, it will be immediately apparent, both you and the bear will know. Hit him right, end of story. Don't use a dime bullet for a $100 job, get a good bullet! Cost you about $2 for a good one!



Michael

I push mine at 2100fps. Got pass throughs on 200+# hogs, up close and personel.


Keith

Going about 2500 fps at impact, they came apart on a possum and ruined his day. Complete destruction of bullet and marsupial.

Some Photos and descriptions of a few of the 405s from M3Taco used in the field.

1. For scale, the cartridge on the right is a 450M with a 425gr Jae Bok Young HCGC with a COL of 2.54". All were recovered from gemsbok.

2. The top two are Rem 405gr JFP loaded to 2000fps - I don't remember the impact distances but somewhere around 80-100yds. Broadside shoulder shots and recovered under the offside shoulder skin. Never found the jackets. Marlin 1995M (ported)

3. Second row down are two Rem 405gr JFP loaded to 1850fsp - again don't remember exact impact distances but somewhere between 80-100yds. Broadside shoulder shots and recovered under the offside shoulder skin. Jackets recovered from on-side lung/heart area. Marlin 1895M ported.

4. Left side/bottom, Nosler 300gr Partition loaded to 2000fps. Broadside shoulder impact at 130yds and recovered under offside shoulder skin. Marlin 45-70 1895G (ported).

5. Right side/bottom, Barnes 350gr TSX loaded to 2400fps. 120yd impact - entered frontal chest and recovered left hind quarter just under the skin. Custom Win 70 in 450M.






Some of my test work done with this bullet. Do keep in mind I too have taken this same bullet to the field many times in early years and used it on wildebeast, black bear, warthogs, kudu and some other things as well, not always with the best of results, and never ever just knock things down and out. Even at some higher velocities.



Better choices out there--You bet!

Michael

Here is a dandy bullet that would serve the purpose well!

Yes they will shoot in most 45's. Here are some groups shot with my 460Wby:





But, make sure they are produced without errors before reloading them. Here are a few examples:

I think I will leave the Rem 405's for paper punching. The North Fork looks like one tough bullet and a way better way to go.

Thanks Michael458 for posting those for me.

I think it is interesting that two different people, shooting the same bullet at similar velocities got nearly identical results supported by photos.

I shoot a bunch of 405s for range time. The last batch I got (a couple of thousand last year) were bulk blems and I think cost me something in the neighborhood of 15-16 cent a piece plus USPS flat rate shipping. I can't find cast for that rate.

There have been a boatload of guys shooting these things at 1600 and under for a long, long time and have killed some pretty big stuff with them - just don't over drive them and they will continue to kill a lot of stuff for a long, long time.

some other 45-70 info
http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar171.htm

m3taco

Oh man, like I said upstairs a bit ago the 405s are excellent bullets for doing load data test work with 400s, they are super accurate, reasonable priced, and no down side to them at all. Very fun to shoot at very low velocities as well. Just don't go to the field with them at hi velocity except for small critters like deer and such.

quote:

I think I will leave the Rem 405's for paper punching. The North Fork looks like one tough bullet and a way better way to go.

Coyote Wacker

Now that sounds like a pretty good plan to me. Also, you can get a North Fork in a 400 gr bullet too, and I think a 350 in a more spitzer shape if you wanted. This particular bullet above is sort of a FN that will work in the lever guns as well. Either way, hard to go wrong if you want to use a conventional premium.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by 350 Remington Magnum:

Doesn't say much for quality control.

"Doesn't say much for quality control"



If they were sold as bulk blems then that is quality control in action.
Frank

In my experience, 300gr 45 cal bullets are bes held to 1800fps. The 400 Speer 1800 to 2000 fps.
The Remington 405, 2100fps, the Hornady 350gr 2350fps... I have killed several deer and pigs with these bullets at these velocities, and seen my brother and brother in law, do the same.
They have all worked great.
I have not used the Speer 350gr bullet.

If you feel the need, or just have to to get the accuracy you need at higher velocity then use the North Fork 350gr Soft...