I don't own a 375 I would buy a 375 ruger AK.

I don't reload, and like to get ammo for my rifle almost anywhere in the world, so the choice is obvious.
The .338 might be better if you like to shoot lighter bullets at longer ranges, the rest belongs to 9,5x whatever you like.
If you hunt only in North America and had a choice between Model 77 Express .338 vs. Hawkeye African I would go with the .338. Hey they had a closeout on those 'Express' rifles last year with tag at <900. They were "delicious"!

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:

quote:

Anything the .375 H&H can do, the .375 weatherby can do better.

Except sell rifles!

Yes I have turned 3 of those .375 H&H factory rifles into .375 Weatherby. Very cost effective and ballistically efficient. A full-on custom rifle in .375 Weatherby like the Echols' Legend will not shoot any better, and mine are better beaters.

Freinds,

I seldom disagree w 500 grains, who I defer to on all things African, but I love high velocity 375's!

A 375 Improved has been my standard "Get 'er done," cartridge for 25 years.



Pictured 375 Improved w 300 gr new style nosler and 375 H & H w 270 grain WW Power Point, a great conventional bullet.

2,800 fps with 300 grain Bitterroot.
2,975 fps with 275 grain Bitterroot.
3,000 fps with 270 grain WW Power Point or Nosler (both old and new style partition, yes Im that old).
3,050 fps 250 grain Bitterroot.

All using IMR 4831 powder w 270-300 grain bullets and 4064 for 250 gr.

Never had a bullet failure (that I know of).

Killed hundreds (and I do mean hundreds) of American bison and feedlot cattle with this rifle and 22 big elk.

My friend of 30 years Bill Steigers has had many clients kill cape buffalo w 250 grain 375 at 2950-3,100 fps with one shot.

With premium bullets there is no reason to fear 3,000 fps velocity with a 375.

It does not just add range but instant lights out knock down power!

Granted I was using the best bonded bullets in the world, but even the nosler which is considered fairly soft for a premium bullet these days did just fine, but admittedly with a higher SD bullet.

To be fair, I would say, by all means start out with a 375 H & H. I did.

Once I was used to recoil I moved up to the blown out improved case. Similar velocity to a full house 375 x 404.

Disadvantage, recoil. Not to be taken lightly!

PS The 375 Weatherby has about -100 fps from the 375 improved (25 degree shoulder) using WW brass.

One advantage to the improved (belted) 375's is that you can load them down with a medium slow powder like 4064 and get an extra 100 fps over an H & H. Or go all the way w a slow powder like 4831. Very versatile ctg.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:

PS The 375 Weatherby has about -100 fps from the 375 improved (25 degree shoulder) using WW brass.

Andy

Preposterous!!!

Andy,
What is the gross water capacity of your brass?
I am of the mind that there is no significant difference between the .375Wby, JRS, or AI 25 degree, and certainly not 100 fps difference when they are loaded to the same pressures.

.375 Weatherby Factory Ammo with 300-grain Noslers will indeed deliver 2800 fps from a 26" barrel, no sweat.

Your 275-grainer at 2975 fps sounds too hot for me, and the ones listed below it make my eyes bleed!

Otherwise I agree with everything you said.

Andy, would you be willing to share your loads with me? I'm getting a .375 Ackley Improved 40 in the next few months with a 26.5" barrel. If so, PM me or post here. Regards, AIU

Friends,

I dont recall the shoulder diameter of the 375 improved of Bill Steigers, which is the parent case of the 416 Hoffman. It is 25 degrees though.

Georges gunsmith necked up the reamer for Bills 375 to make the 416 Hoffman.

RIP 105.7 grains h20 for improved case, or 1.2 gr more than what Art Alphin says the Weatherby has.

Old notes from many years ago, so dont hold me to either one!

The WW brass makes quite a difference compared to Remington. Probably 100 fps!

My barrel for these velocities RIP is 22 1/2 inch!

Stainless steel, 1-8 twist, cut by Atkinson in 1982 (Rays brother?).

Loads. Use drop tube. WW brass. Federal 215. 90-92 grains 4831 300 grain. 92-94 grains 270-275 grain. 85 grains 4064 for 3050 fps. More with slow powders like H205, MRP etc.

With 4831 you cannot get into trouble as you will bulk out case before getting to unsafe pressures.

The Bitterroot has a bit of velocity advantage over others because 6 caliber ogive reduces bearing surface and use of pure lead core makes for a fairly short bullet despite streamlined ogive. Soft annealed jacket is easy on pressure too.

Deduct 100 fps for solid base bullet like NF or TBBC,or Barnes. But remember Im shooting a 22 1/2 inch bull barrel.

I can't believe that anyone would doubt a 300 grain NF or original TBBC at 2700-2800 fps would not hold together. Hell, even a 250 grain Swift will hold together at that velocity! (Ive done it).

Andy

Andy,

Norma made .375 Wby brass has an average of 111.4 grains gross water capacity, and that is greater by a few grains than WW brass fireformed into .375 Wby. I know the Remington/RP brass has the least capacity of all I have tried.

It would be very easy for you to weigh the water in a fired case with the primer left in it. Try to get the meniscus as level as possible and subtract the weight of the empty case from that of the case plus water, avoiding air bubbles. An electronic digital scale works best for obvious reason.

Granted the faster twist you have will increase pressures only a fraction of a percent for a given velocity, but you baffle me even further with such short barrel as 22.5"!

Ron, Ive been through 3-4 chronographs in last 25 years and none of them have said Im not doing 2800 fps with a case full of 4831 and a 300 grain Bitterroot.

Figure 2700 fps with the other bullets.

Im using 20 year old WW cases with way too many reloads on them. Ive split maybe 2 case necks in 25 years.

Its not a high pressure load!

Honest.

Andy

Andy,
I would not be giving you hell except for the comment claiming the .375 Wby is "-100 fps" compared to the .375 AI 25-degree.

Now we see that the .375 Wby has almost 6 grains of water advantage over the .375 AI 25-degree ... so ... never mind.

I think of the 375 ruger as a 338win improved.

I do think about getting one and putting 260 nosler partitions in it. Would handle anything I will hunt. I think this would be a killer Brown bear load. The 250 nosler in the 338 is well known for going through and through Brown bears. Seems loosing a little penetration to a larger frontal area would not be a bad thing at all.

Hornady .375 Ruger brass = 101.1 grains gross water
Weatherby/Norma .375 Weatherby brass = 111.4 grains gross water

The .375 Ruger is indeed a cutie in the Hawkeye.

The easy availability of excellent Norma brass for the .375 Wby makes it the best .375 H&H Imp.

And then there is the .395 GSC and the "Forty-Double-Ought-Seven" aka .395 Tatanka for The Intrepid.

Andy

I've tried your load of 94 gr IMR 4831 in my Weatherby chambered M-70 (270 Hornies) . It only kicks up 2800 in my rifle . It's about all you can crunch in there , in fireformed WW cases, and the accuracy in on the poorer side .

H4350 , RL 19 , Big Game and Hunter all work nicely for me.

I think the difference is your faster twist , and maybe ? no freebore in your improved chamber, I believe those items let the slower powder work better ,

Hunter will push a 260 Nosler(accubond) to 3000 in my rifle , and the factory loads(with 300 gr Nosler) will hit an honest 2800 at the muzzle .

Ron,

I will weigh a case for you w and without water. Ive never used Norma brass so may stand corrected! (But I wonder if you would need a standard length throat to equal my velocities?)

sdgunslinger,

I did not mention I had a normal lead for the throat and as you pint out that would make a big difference.

IMR4350 was noticably faster burning in my rifle but gave you a chance to get the pressure up there. I did not use it as for some reason it lost alot of velocity in cold weather (in my rifle anyway). And I used to hunt w it alot late season elk.

Cramming the 4831 in there is no fun, but do-able.

4350 and RL-19 are better for the solid base and monometals probably!

Andy

I once had a friend tell me after getting charged by a 9 foot Alaskan Brown Bear that his .416 felt really small at the time...

I shot a 9 footer this last moose season in full charge at less than 8 yards with a .300 Wtby loaded with 200 gr Nosler Partitions. I caught it just under the left eye. The scull was crushed like somebody hit the bear in the head with a sledge hammer!



So when choosing a new bear specific rifle I decided I wanted a .375 H&H. But then after reading about Master Guide #1 Hal Waugh and his M70 Winchester, Big Nan, chambered .375 Wtby and how much he loved it. I decided to go the Weatherby route. After talking to a few gunsmiths and fellow shooters I decided to give the .375 RUM a try. I'll be picking it up this weekend... I went with the Remington XCR with a 24" barrel and open sights...



Is a .375 needed for bear? Probably not, but I wanted one and I'm getting one. I don't really think this bear knew what I hit him with... He was dead on his feet!

.375 Remington Ultra Mag for me...

- Clint

I agree with you totally! I have a custom built Remington 30-S that is chambered for the 375 Dakota and it is a fantastic rifle. It will shoot 3/4" groups all day long and will digest most powders without any problem. Having used all of the other 375's, I will stay with this one.

Clint,

A Rem 700 rife and a 300 RUM. That could get banned on this site

Mike

According to QL the case capacity of the 375 H&H Ackley Improved - 40 and the 375 Wthby are identical at ~105 grains of water (I assume both full resized). PO Ackley talks about both being identical ballistically with load data interchangeable. I think Ackley is correct. There is no reason to believe the Ackley would out perform the Wthby and vice-versa. Andy, according to QL you're way over maximum getting 3000 fps with a 300 gr. bullet. and a 22.5" barrel - ~2800 would be absolute maximum (~65,000 psi) using MRP.

quote:

Originally posted by SuperSpeed:
Clint,

A Rem 700 rife and a 300 RUM. That could get banned on this site

Mike

I know, I know... I own a few AR-15's too.

Actually I own a Weatherby Mark 5 chambered in .300 Weatherby. I love this gun... It was a gift from my Dad the first time he came to Alaska to hunt with me. The Remington that I've bought and should be picking up here next week was a tuff decision. I originally bought a Sako chambered in .375 H&H with a 22" barrel. Then I ended up going the Remy XCR route, but I have both guns and intend on using both....

- Clint

Clint,

The main contenders are the Mark V in either 30/378, 378 or 460.

But a Browning A Bolt in 375 is right up there

Mike

Ackley,

I get 2,800 fps with 300 grain Bitterroot, about 100 fps less with other premium bullets using cae full of 4831.

3,000 fps with 270 grain Power Point and nosler.

Never hit 3,000 fps with a 300 grain!

(Not intentionally anyway).

Andy

I could have sworn I saw 3000 with a 300-grainer in Andy's original post which was edited soon after?

Any who: Agreed there is no significant difference between the .375 AI and the .375 Wby.

However, I think the 2001 throat for the .375 Wby reincarnation is a plus. 0.3700" of tight, parallel-sided freebore plus the 1.5 degree leade: It will allow greater velocities, more powder, keeps pressures down, and does not detract from accuracy ... unless it allows greater gas cutting and erodes the throat faster than a tighter throat would, down the road.

Plus the greater capacity Norma brass adds a few grains internal capacity.

Full length Norma brass is 2.860", trim-to: 2.850".

WW-Super .375 H&H brass, when fireformed to .375 Wby, shortens to 2.832" as it is blown out. Hornady basic can be made up at the 2.850" length to start.

5 cases of each of these measured after fire forming:
..............Norma .375Wby.....Hornady Basic ..... WW-Super
length (in.) ........ 2.860 ......... 2.850 ............. 2.832
weight (gr.) ...... 228.3 .......... 248.4 ..............248.7
H2OCap (gr.) .... 111.5 ......... 108.2 ............. 108.4

Below are, left to right, a nickel-plated R-P .375 H&H, a Norma .375 Wby, and the rest are Hornady basic .375 Wby:



And here are the .375 H&H cases I just weighed for brass weight and water capacity gross in grains, average for 5 each, plain brass and NP-(nickel-plated)-brass:

WW-Super Brass: 250.5 ... 97.6
WW-Super NP-brass: 254.9 ... 96.8

R-P Brass: 258.2 ... 96.8
R-P NP-brass: 261.3 ... 95.3

FC (Federal) NP-brass: 262.4 ... 95.5

I was surprised to see so little difference in the weights and gross water capacities of these 5 makes of brass from 3 different makers.

I hear PMP brass is heavier and lesser capacity. I don't have any of that to check.

My nickel-plated brass averages 95.9 grains of water gross.

My average for Remington and Winchester plain brass is 97.2 grains.

Norma .375 Wby brass gives THE EDGE, to the .375 Weatherby: 111.5 grains H2O

Dr. RIP,

If you would like a few PMP cases PM a shipping address to me and I will get some to you.

John,
Thanks, but I already have 5 kinds of .375 H&H brass to keep "sorted out." One more kind might drive me nuts.

I'll take your word, and that of kayaker, that the PMP is the thickest and heaviest, and a few grains less water capacity (fireformed) than the the RP, WW, and FC (fireformed).

Good to know.

Now if you want to send me a couple of hundred new PMP cases, I would somehow find a way to deal with that.

Well I was going to send 20 but all I have is fired cases. I would like to buy new PMP brass because I think less capacity might be good for full velocity cast bullet loads but it doesn't look like even the PMP ammo is available anymore. I don't know what the future looks like for Denel or the ammo division.

Andy, sorry, I misread your post. Although I've yet to get my gun (.375 AI 40 with a 26.5" bull barrel) and shoot it, QL (Max ~65,000 psi) predicts 2900 fps with ~94 grs of MRP and a 300 Nosler; 3100 fps with ~97 grs of MRP and a 260 Nosler. ~5500 ft lbs energy. What do you think - is that possible?

My 375 H&H is a Sako 75 Hunter and it shoots the 270gr bullet at 2620 FPS and the 300gr bullet at 2648 FPS. And is zeroed at 150 yds.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Andy, sorry, I misread your post. Although I've yet to get my gun (.375 AI 40 with a 26.5" bull barrel) and shoot it, QL (Max ~65,000 psi) predicts 2900 fps with ~94 grs of MRP and a 300 Nosler; 3100 fps with ~97 grs of MRP and a 260 Nosler. ~5500 ft lbs energy. What do you think - is that possible?

3100 fps with a 260 gr. sounds a tad fast to me. Best I can get from a 250 gr. with my 26" Wby. is 3060 fps with 92.0 of H-414 and that's just at the cutting edge of clinical pressure signs. You might be able to get those numbers. But I'd rather you did the shooting instead of me.

Ackley,

In my std and improved 375's the slow double base powders like MRP, H-205, and Winchester 760 gave unpredictable results when changing even a single component or in hot weather, so I shied away from them and went back to the old reliable single base IMR powders. (Though even 4350 went tits up in cold weather). 4831 and 4064 worked so well in the improved and std case or 4064 with lighter bullets in the improved I have not experimented much since early 1980's.

I would certainly give RL-15/19 a look see in the std and improved. RL is certainly as stable as any single base powder I have used.

With H-205 and MRP I did hit 3,100 fps with 250 grain but as I said, pressure was erratic with changes to brass, primers and/or temperature. And for 50 fps extra velocity was not worth it to me.

Ive never fired a long barrel 375 or 260 nosler BT so dont know if your velocity with 260 nosler is realistic. Sounds a tad fast?

RIP,

Thanks for details on brass. I get so many reloads on my WW brass that they have grown out to normal length, so the Norma Weatherby brass does deffinately have more capacity. I did not know that!

Is the Norma 375 H and H brass as light as the Weatherby? (Was thinking to fireform some of those?)

Andy

Andy,
I don't know if the Norma .375 H&H is similarly constructed as their .375 Wby, but sounds like a good guess.

I have some Norma-made .338 Lapua Magnum and can weigh it in comparison to Lapua-made .338 Lapua Magnum. That is something I have been meaning to do ... as well as check the water capacity of the fired cases there too.

That should be a clue until "sumbuddy who know for sure" comes along.

That is a phrase I learned from our friend Overkill. Whatever happened to Overkill? He got a cartridge named after him by RGB and then disappeared?

Hopefully he is not deceased, or overkilled.

Strut10, have you ever tried MRP, Re22, WXR or the like with your .375 Wthby?

Andy, what is the maximum case capacity for your .375 AI-40 with say Re22 - that would include using a drop tube and powder compression without having the bullet puch back out.

Regards, AIU

Ackley,

I have a Bill Steigers wildcat, the blown out 375 with 25 degree shoulder, not a 40 degree Ackley.

I do have some RL22 I can pour in there like water though and will report back!

Bill made a whole line of these blown out 25 degree cases, including 7mm, .308, .338, .375, and .416. It was parent case to 416 hoffman and predates 7mm STW and 375 JRS etc by many years. The 25 degree shoulder allows you to maintain a one caliber neck length for each caliber.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Strut10, have you ever tried MRP, Re22, WXR or the like with your .375 Wthby?

I have not. I'm still a relative newbie to the cartridge. So far, I've only developed a 250 gr. Sierra load for it. I did that first since it suits what I'm doing with the rifle best. I believe the powders you mention would have been a tad on the slow side for the little 250's. I have been gathering up some 300 gr. stuff to try soon.

The plot thickens.

5 fired cases each of Lapua-made and Norma-made .338 Lapua Magnum brass were weighed and watered. These came from factory loaded ammo.

Norma:
brass weight = 345.14 grains average
gross water = 114.90 grains

Lapua:
brass weight = 337.24 grains
gross water = 117.10 grains

And to confuse the issue:
My Lapua-made brass bought in packs of 100 from Mid South Shooter's Supply, used to make .375/.338 Lapua Magnum wildcat brass,
weighs 349.8 grains and holds only 116.7 grains of water at 2.700" brass length, after necking up and fireforming to .375.

So we have no clue as to whether Norma .375 H&H brass will be constructed similarly as their .375 Wby brass.

Different lots must mean different weights and water capacity.

New .375 Weatherby headstamp:
(Only 228.3 grains of fire formed brass plus spent primer, un-resized, holds 111.5 grains of water. Very efficient package.)



Old .375 Weatherby headstamp:

Ron,

You have the old brass, new brass and the elephant packets. You got the lot

Mike

Mike,
Those photos were swiped from:

www.ammo-one.com

I have a few of those old boxes from 1984 purchase of 460 Wby ammo. I got my first 460 Wby (Mark V Deluxe-Japanese) from John Wall of Blairstown, MO, late 1984.

That's my kind of nostalgia.

Look at that double-radiused .375 Wby shoulder. It looks like about 25 degrees with the sharp rounded smooth: Slick!

Nothing wrong with that shoulder.

Ron,

Back in about 1973 at the tender age of 25 the Wby agents in Australia told me the best thing to do would be contact Wby myself to sort out the details etc and then the rifle would come via the agent.

Order a pair of them, with Wby scopes and 120 cases each. One was for a mate of mine and we made our pick without opening the boxes. I shot the shit out of mine (wished I had been using bag of lead shot back then) and my mates was stored and I bought it off him around 1992/3. That rifle was later sold to an Australian gun writer who now lives in the US and he still has the 460.

When I went through the order details it was my first overseas phone call and you guessed, I spoke to Roy for about 20 to 30 minutes.

Mike

I think the .375 Ruger is quit a gun, a .375 on a std. action is something I think we needed and boy can the wildcatters have fun with that one.

I probably won't ever own a .375 Ruger as I have my old English Mauser in .375 H&H and a nice 9.3x62, but I just had a 416/375 Ruger built up but will probably sell the barreled action and replace it with a 404/375 Ruger.

I don't think anything is going to put the .338 out of action, it started out slow and worked its way to the top, at least that is what the factory boys tell me, and besides those two cartridges pretty much serve two different purposes. For the USA I don't there is a better round than the .338 Win. I could say the same for the .375 in Africa. There are other options, but none are any better when push comes to shove.

Mike,
Ain't you special, ordering 460 Weatherby rifles in matched pairs directly from Roy Weatherby like that, way back in '73. Man, that makes me all nostalgic.

Ray,
Welcome back from the roping.

Ron,

A couple of things about Roy and the 460s.

The two 460s had wood that would knock your eye out. I will explain a bit later why they were sold.

Roy seemed to enjoy talkingto people from overseas. Accents were also stronger back in those days, I guess all the years of TV etc. After seeing one of the 460s (the other was stored by my mate) another Australian phoned Roy and to get a 224 and 7mm. Again, the wood was a knockout and so far in front of what was in the normal shipment they could not be compared. In addition the 224 wents astray and it appeared to be a problem from Wbys end.Another 224 was sent and as an "apology" one of those cute 22 autos was added

Contrary to the hype and image Wby were and are the mosts straight gun company about. The current Australian agent has been with them for over 25 years. Wby don't get involved with 6 different agents etc. The custom shop for example will happily deal with you all day long but the rifle must come through the Australia agent.

Originally I ordered a pair of 378s with the ccustomshop barreled actions and then a pair of 460d done the same way. For different reasons (aand well into the order time) I asked could the pair of 4600s be change to another pair of 378s. The answer was "Yes" and the only time delay was our time differences. But the agent still had to be notified and change in order come from them. The pair of 460s was ordered later and are yet to arrive.

On the scustom barreled actions the bullet is virtually a light tap down the freebore and the rifling looks like it just grew out of the bore.

The two piece all steel bottom metal is like a swiss watch. The floor plate has virtually no wobble when open. How they two that with a 2 piece unit given it mush line up in the wood says something. My mate Blair 338/378 has a standard Accumark and he will tell you the difference between the actions.

Back to the original 460s. The first one had the shit shot out of it. The second was not used so much. I bedded it and as Blair and the current owner of the rifle will attest accuracy was under .5" with different loads and especially 115 grains of IMR 4350 and 500 grain Hornady. 3 shot groups were often .2 or .3, an oval hole in 45 calibre.

Two things I did not like about the rifle. One was the integral Pendleton which were not that good but were still noisy. Because I play with a lot of reduced loads it use to annoy ne that I could not remove the Pendleton.

The other issue was that I always had a problem with the Made in Japan.

On pricing, Wby appear to change the pricing structure (upwards) if the rifle is not a catologued item. A catologued item also includes their DGRs, Crown Customs etc. In other words if something increases the US recommended retail the rifle will cost quite a bit more than the increase would indicate.

Lastly, and this might now be a couple of years out of date. The 270 Wby is the number 2 seller. In done up Accumarks, that is Kreiger cut rifle barrel and action work, the 30/378 leads the pact. In the top wood guns (which is not Crown Custom etc) the 300 is first and 460 second. On standard guns the 416 is dead but does well on the high end wood guns. Of the threee big ones, the 378,416 and 460 it appears a far higher percentage of 416 buyers buy the rifls just to shoot big animals ann in realtion to the number of 416s sold it has by far the greates amount of factory ammo sold. In other words the 378 and 460 sales are dominated by gun nuts etc.

The 30/378 is a non seller in high end wood guns, they are virtually all 300s and the 378, 416 and 460. I guess that is similar to other high end customers in that they are either smaller "normal" type calibres or one of the big bangers.

Lastly, as you know Savage99 and others go on about belted cases and how there is a 6 inch gap between the shoulder and the chamber .....he would get a suprise if he saw the new brass fired in one of these 378s. I sure the same applies to an Echols etc....unless John S and Allen Day are slow learners.

Mike