Gentlemen,

While I freely admit, I have never owned a REAL big bore rifle, I want to fix that problem! Since I got some cash back from Uncle Sam, not much mind you, but a little, what big bore should I get in the < $1200 range?

Originally, I was thinking that I would hold out for the rumored CZ550 Safari in 505 Gibbs, but that may or may not happen. Also, I am somewhat concerned about the recoil of such a beast, and my ability to handle it for a first time big bore (would hate to suffer from that "rifle for sale with 19 rounds of ammo included" syndrome).

Please keep in mind, the heaviest recoiling rifles I have shot are the 50 Beowulf and a friends 300 Win mag. I also have fired a 12 gauge slug gun a great deal, which I think kicks are that either of the two rifles I named. As you can see my recoil experience is pretty minimal. I have seen guys shooting 416s at the range, and the recoil looks mighty impressive and leaves me somewhat aprehensive.

Thanks for your suggestions. I plan on going to Cabelas next week and do some shopping.

Also, tell me if you prefer ASS_CLOWN (as I have admitted behaved as one, should I use this handle as my own personal "scarlet letter" ) or my real name Scott for a handle.

ASS_CLOWN

For most people the .375 H&H makes the most sense for first "real" big bore. .458 Win seems to be about the next step up, as I think the .416s are just as bad or worse. (in recoil) Better yet, a .458 Lott cause if you can't handle it, you can always make it a .458 Winny with no effort! If you can handle it(the Lott), you've got a "real gun" to be sure.

I think the 458 Win Mag or now the 458 Lott is the best choice for a persons first big bore IMHO for the following reasons:
Brass [especially 458] is available and relatively cheap.
Bullets are dirt cheap compaired to other big bores. Especially the 400 grain bullets for the 45/70. At 1700 to 1900 they make great plinking, deer and pig loads.
With these 400grain bullets you can start low in recoil and work your way up. Thus you have a big bore that is fun to shoot and makes a great North American hunting rifle for all NA game depending on the load you shoot, subject to some range limitations of course.
If you progress to bigger or better [Double Rifle ]
the 458 can always be used as a spare or a "loaner" to introduce your friends to big bore rifles.

Scott - What's a REAL gun? I've got a couple of .22 rifles and I've always considered them REAL GUNS.

I confess I don't always understand the motivation of the Big Bore forum. If I were going to Africa and seriously worried about someting eating me or stomping me into the dirt, then I'd get REAL excited about the BIG stuff.

But I'll never even make it to Alaska and the big bears...and I'm not sure you will either.

So to me, the big guns are really little more than a Big bang, BIG powder burners, damned expensive brass and bullet eaters. They gotta be damned painful to shoot...and possibly even damaging to things like discs in your spine or shoulder joints.

Shucks, if I want to get hurt, I can just go out and fall down a flight of stairs. Don't cost me nothing! Other than doctor bills.

As I've talked about here on this forum before, I used to be into anti-tank guns. 20mm and the .55 Boyes. They were all the above. Plus great fun to shoot.......for a little while. A big day with the Boyes, for example, might be a dozen shots. Whereas a big day with my 30/06 or such was likely to be 200 rounds scattered across the wilds of New Mexico or burned up trying to blow gar out of the Pecos River. Now THAT was fun!

I don't know what I'm trying to say other than what do you want a really big gun for? What are you going to do with it? If it were me, I'd stop at a "lowly" .375 H&H. It will do a fine job on anything I suspect you will ever see in your life. NO?

Or do I just not get it? That's possible too.

But I can tell you the guys on the small bore and medium bore rifle forums love their rifles just as passionately as anyone here...and I suspect have more real fun and do a LOT more shooting that the B.B. guys here. (And I don't mean that as critical of anyone here.)

I guess it's just really if you are into shooting and hunting or into designing and building rifles.

This probably didn't help a lick with your question but it's my .02 worth. There's a LOT of ways to have fun with firearms...and most of them don't have .50 caliber barrels.

Wait a minute!

Scott said he owned a 500 AHR, and previously owned 4 rifles in 500 Jeffery, and was in the process of building a 4 bore.

Did he lie?

500Grains, AC lie... no way. It can't be so and I had such hope for the 4 bore project .

Scott, a couple of "GUNS" come to mind when considering a FIRST BIG BORE. A NEW Remington 870 in 12bore can be picked up at very low cost - even @ Mao Mart, with a fully rifled barrel or a smoothbore slug barrel or several barrels of your choice. Whatever suits you! The NEW Dixie Terminator and Predator Slugs for rifled and smoothbore 12ga Guns are serious dangerous game slugs. The Terminator is a 750gr hard cast slug that's capable of raking any North American Game animals from head to tail! In the Express loads, it gives you 1350fps at very moderate (10,500psi) pressures. IF you load your own, you might be able to pick up another couple hundred fps before the plastic shotgun shells self destruct at something over 14,000psi. Even though a lot of guns are proofed for well beyond the maximum pressures of plastic shells, the shell itself is the limiting factor. In that case, just load in 12ga brass shells - very low cost from Midway at about $14.00 box/25!

DIXIE SLUGS - TERMINATOR SLUG



Here's the parts, ready for assembly.... Dry Moly Coated Terminator Shown



If you're hankering for a scoped bolt action rifle in a relatively large bore, the .375 is about the smallest true big bore, but the smallest .375 slugs are still way overkill for 'bout any deer sized game in North America. It's a great choice for ELK, MOOSE, BEAR, ETC. Maybe Remington will be offering "Managed Recoil" loads in more Magnum Calibers if the others become popular.

GOOD LUCK!

I got a 458 Win for my first big bore and have been very happy with it. Charles Daly Mauser action, Douglas 25" #5 contour barrel, etc.. It's reasonbly easy to shoot and with sights, barrel band swivel and Boyds JRS laminate stock it's well within your budget.

That 12 gauge slug is interesting to say the least!

Thanks for the replies so far.

I have another question. How difficult would it be to assemble a 458 Win mag out of a surplus Mauser K98 and the parts available from Midway? I have done a great deal of reading/studying about his kind of thing, but never actually have done it.

Thanks.

ASS_CLOWN

See my posts concerning my gun collection. That is what I own and with the exception of a 12 gauge long ago it is all I have owned.

Tried to get a 500 AHR once, but I really could not afford it and sold it before I even took a shot. Wish I had been able to shoot it once, that would answer many of my recoil questions, but alas it was not to be.

I have never owned a 500 Jeffery, and don't recall ever stating that I did.

ASS_CLOWN

A C
I would go with the CZ in 416 Rigby it is big enough to kill everything and the recoil is acceptable. It is furthermore a real old classic and the price of brass is not to high.


Cheers,

Andr�

45-70 fan myself. Blackpowder loads and smokeless at BP velocities you can shoot all day comfortably through mine. And if you're wanting recoil you can load her up with a hot smokeless load that hurts with this steel buttplate. I think you'd get more use out of this round than the others. They have a purpose, but I don't think you would have a use for one, other than to say you have one.

<why am i doing this.. because I do believe anyone can be just as honest as they want to be>



Scott, I would suggest, in all seriousness, an nef/marlin 45/70 single shot. Or, the ultra-handi rifle in 450 marlin.



Just send it to them and ask for a trigger job ($40 bucks including shipping)



This will set you back a whipping 250 bucks, and you can load it up and down... and, frankly, the handirifle is too light, so you'll wind up adding weight.



As for building a 458 on a mauser, i'll assume you have tools and experience with machining, and this is not a huge effort, although it's easy to screw up the feeding. It's far easier to buy a CRF in 458 from mauser, ruger(?) or cz.



I'll assume you reload, so power and recoil levels are adjustable to your tastes.



.458 bullets are dirt cheap, as well as rl7



best of luck, and please dont scope it till you get used to it. I just can't stand to see someone get weatherby eye...



besides, a scope cut doesn't count unless you can see bone



j

You might consider a used Interarms Mark X Alaskan or Whitworth in 375 or 458, or a Ruger #1, either can be had for $400-$650. My first big bore was a Whitworth 375, a really great rifle. I'd suggest the 375 over the 458 for your first big bore, although both are very versatile. I prefer "Scott" for your handle.

Gowge,
Have these Terminator Slugs ever been tested on bowling pins ? Sure they would be fun to play with.
Instant tooth picks >>

I think that the NEF handi rifle is just the thing for Scott.



Or if he is feeling nostalgic, then he can prove himself on a Martini Henry.

I prefer your present handle in that it may let someone not familiar with the situation around here know to double check anything that you might post that could be potentially dangerous or harmful. No flame intended.

How about one of the CZ's in 375H&H, 458win or 416 Rigby. I would think that the 416 Rigby would be the most versatile of all. The cheap 45-70 bullets in the 458 is a great idea or cast your own and you can shoot for cheap all the time.
I have a 500gn mold for the 470 and while I wouldn't hunt buff with it, it would be interesting to see what it might do to a Hog. They sure do blow chunks out of stacks of phone books. I shoot them at 2150 with no leading and good accuracy.
Do you reload? if not, then put part of your money into a loading kit.

Humm... A rifled terminator slug would be cool to try out in my 870..

I wonder if that company makes rifled slugs that are 3"?

Its accuracy out of my smooth 18" barrel would probably be crappy...

HeeHaw, the Terminator hasn't been tested on bowling pins, but it's been shot into hardwood logs. It splits hardwood logs with ease! It's hard cast lead, about BN-20, so it only expands to about 1" diameter.


CoolGuy, you can buy a fully rifled barrel for your 870 to shoot the Terminator, or you can keep the smoothbore and shoot the Predator which is not quite as heavy and works in either style barrel. The Predator will run a little faster thru the smoothbore. These heavy, hard cast slugs are meant to be used up to 100 yards - that's it. They'll probably kill 'bout anything you can hit in North America with it at almost any range, given the huge diameter and weight. They're designed first and foremost, as dangerous game slugs for backup, etc. Close range is the name of the game with these slugs. Besides, the shortest shot is the sign of the most accomplished hunter. It's poor hunters who must take those long and risky shots.

GOOD LUCK!

Scott,

I would go for a cz .375 or a .458 win mag cz and ream to the lott straight away as dies and brass in the US are cheap at Grafs. Load to 45/70 specs to start with and work up to lott loads. You will have heaps of cheap bullets to play with to.

PC.

do you want to buy one or build one?
If buy a 375 hh or a 458 winmag (whitworths are nice) I like the 458 because you can shoot it without spending big bucks. If you just want something to make noise and kick (not planning on DG hunt) a 45/70 lever or the 405 (Teddys rifle) lever are just plain cool! Plus you could use it for quite a bit of north american hunting. The cz in 505 would be a bit much to start with and $$$ to shoot.
If looking for a building project the 550 mag looks mighty interesting. RNS is setting it up nice or Jeffes "550 express??" twist also is interesting.
Dean

I'll agree with Jeffe. The NEF in 45-70 is a good bargain. I picked mine up for $182 new. It'll shoot well, and recoil will quickly become apparent! It only weighs a pinch over 6 lbs, and moving up in charge weights will quickly increase the recoil. You'll get to see what it's like and decide how far you really want to go with bullet velocity or caliber. Heck, for under $350 or so, you can get a rifle, reloading tools and a good supply of brass and bullets. While not a true DG rifle, I think the .458 bore does qualify as a 'big' one. It sure is fun to shoot, anyway. maxman

jeffeosso,

I must admit that the challenge of building my own rifle appeals to me. I don't really have any machines, so could you please tell me specifically what machines I would need access to to assemble a 458 Win mag Mauser K98 using the parts available from Midway USA?

Thanks,
ASS_CLOWN

Scott,
for your budget (1200) you really can't assemble the required tools... sorry.

As I said, you could get a handirifle or a cz for 1/2 or there abouts as your budget.

j

Jeff-Scott- I think for the money he should get a Ruger #1
in 458 Lott.They are about 700 bucks at gunfinder.net in
Hemlock, MI. The reason I say this is brass, bullets, dies, etc are cheap for reloading and before he even shoots it
put 3 lbs in the butt and with heavier barrel they come with will shoot nicer than that Rem 06 he has.My friends with those kind of guns have shot my 458 HE with 350 gr
bullets and it was more comfortable weighted than their Rem
pumps or autoloaders in 30-06 as they are light.And the Lott with 350 gr Speers great for deer,elk,and bear in rifle hunting areas of N MI.For a grand he could have super quality gun, dies, bullets and brass.Ed.

As I am looking to buy a new rifle- kind of a 1 does it all type of thing. Why the 458 Lott over the 375H&H? I have shot a 300wm (Ruger m77 mkII) and the recoil was there but not really tooth losin' Was wondering/worried bout movin up to a 375/458. I was thinking of another Ruger in either #1 or M77 Mk II- which one seems to be better at diminishing felt recoil?


Thanks

Andrew

The Lott is esiest to load down for light game, and yet you have a DGR it you ever get a chance to need it.And loaded
down with right powders brass is good for 50 rounds or more.
For recoil the #1 needs a little wt compared to 77s.But both are great guns.Ed/

jeffeosso,

Thanks. Out of curiousity, just what tools would I need to acquire to assemble a K98 big bore with the Midway USA parts?

Ed, the problem I have with a No. 1 is that it isn't a repeater, nor is it CRF. Your reasoning is sound otherwise. How big of a deal is it, really, to rechamber a M70 458 Win mag?

ASS_CLOWN

Cripes, you guys are unreal. Scott you should have worked for PT Barnum. You've got the rubes eating out of your hand.

I think Mike375 must be rolling on the floor laughing so hard he can't even post here.

Trolling, Trolling, Trolling on the AR.

Ass-Clown- Oh please don't change your name! It's done yeoman service in "normalizing you" This name really fits you to a T" and keeps things on an honest plane.Please don't change now that your on the road to recovery!
Now there is no reason a person of your abilities could not make a .458 win mag on a K98. All you need is a pre-chambered barrel and a good barrel wrench/barrel clamp set up. Remember you told me you had lots of experience "screwing things" together. If you hold your trusty dremel tool real tight with a carbide burr you could easily open up the boltface to fit. You don't need headspace guages, just use a live round! There are probably five hundred "gunsmiths" on Luzon who've done this conversion by hand! By the way what ever happened to the mighty .405 winchester M1985(400 grs at 2150fps) and the 500 AHR( I forget what yopu claimed on this one-wasn't paying any attention)? Come clean now! You'll feel better!By the way where is the picture of YOU and your gun collection.? It would be really cathartic to see the real YOU for once!This might be just enough to redeem you and genereate a live and let live situation here.-Rob

Scott,
you have, under various guises, discussed of your profound skill with machinery...

Since I am not an instructor at a gunsmithing school, and I know you are fishing (judy and axel BOTH did the same thing), I don't feel like getting into a pissing match over "you forgot this or that"...

Go make friends with a local gunsmith, and see all the tools he uses to get there...

hey Rob
i wonder if axel ever figured out how to cut a taper without a taper attachment?

jeffe

well, heck, this was supposed to be a PM



jeffe

Lar45,
Thank you very much. I agree that buying a CZ is probably to more cost effective (and possibly the smarter way) to go. However, the challenge of building my own also appeals to me. I just need to work up the courage to do it!

Thanks again.

ASS_CLOWN

No, buy a Marlin 1895 CB Gun in 45-70 and learn how to paper patch your bullets. Start with some 510 gr. RNCB from Montana Precision Swaging, and RX7. It is a deadly accurate combination, and 1600 fps is not hard to achieve. Probably, I'm guessing, maybe, 1700-1800 is possible too. Recoil to taste. Nothing walks, crawls, or flys in the Western Hemisphere that is immune.

A-C, if your really a mechanic, you should have the skills to do most of it. If you have acess to a drill press, you should be able to drill and tap the reciever fine. If you have acess to a Big drill press, then you should be able to make your own barrel vise blocks for about $1. You could also make your action wrench from an 18" piece of 1x1" cold rolled and a U bolt. I did the chamber on my 30-378 by hand with a Clymer reamer with tee handle and extension. I used a loaded round with the fireing pin removed as a headspace gauge and it turned out fine. Midway sells stock and barrel combo's. It won't be Ultra grade whoo-hoo Turkish Walnut, but it will be a stock. If you start with a Mauser that already has a nice stock on it, then just add the cross bolts. I used sheet metal to cut and weld a Mag box on my M-17 30-378 to get 3 down without the big belly. Cost on that about 50 cents.
Check the gun shops and see if you can find a decent looking Mauser in whatever caliber that already has the bolt handle turned down, a stock with enough room to open up the barrel channel for the 458 barrel. Last year, I bought a comercial rebuild M-98 in 30-06 for about $220 to use as a project. I ended up keeping it a 30-06 and it shoots great. Took my Elk with it last year. If you could find something like this, all you would need is a barrel and sights and cross bolts for the stock.

Thanks again Lar45. I plan on going shopping this weekend. We shall see if I find anything.

ASS_CLOWN

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=18759934

Gew 98 Mauser, bent bolt handle, scope bases on it already. $100



http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=18716363

Decent looking stock. $150



http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=18888801

Nice looking rifle. Don't know what the reserve is, but current bid $99.95



http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=5762301

1909 sporter gun $124