New big bore on the horizon for me but i want some good opinions on the subject, i was really leaning for the remington in a model 70. a great rifle with a great cartridge it also has somewhat more available ammo at lower prices ,But the remington seems to have gotten a lot of bad press A.K.A. "mysterious pressure spikes".
I was also considering m77 in rigby it's a classic great cartridge in an excellent rifle,but ammo availability, price and very long action are detractors but do proven performance make up for it's shortcomings?
A little help please, also has anyone out there acctually witnessed these pressure spikes!!

Dude- Go and buy the Ruger in 416 Rigby as the rifle is a bit heavier than the other one. The long throw bolt can be a bitch when you start shooting but after off hand dry snapping and shooting, it becomes second nature and muscle memory is developed. This all dependant on what amount of time you devote to getting used to your new toy. The Rigby can be loaded up to 2600 fps or down to 2100 fps with cast loads for practice and familiarity. You will never be sorry that you did it. The choice is yours. I am somewhat biased in that I own 5 of these critters now and they have come with nice stocks and 3# triggers and they have the heft to soak up recoil. Enjoy

Buy the Ruger in Rigby. Classic cartridge with capacity to spare over the Rem case. Beautiful rifle with "real wood" and the quarter rib is an expensive option on custom rifles that gets thrown in on the Ruger.

Red,
I am in porter... let's get together and shoot a rem and a taylor... our bunches' rigby is in africa ....

the dif is higher pressure and smaller actions for the rem, and lowpressure, nostalgia, and bigger actions for the rigby, all elese being equal

jeffe

I like the 416 rem myself. Trimmer rifles, more efficient. I'm shooting 400's @ 2400 fps+ with H4895, and no pressure problems so far. The 416 Taylor would be another good one to look into, if a semi-custom is for you.

I prefer the .416 Remington, simply because I like trimmer, lighter cartridges, and trimmer, lighter rifles for a particular bore size when I can come up with them.

I own a custom .416 Remington by D'Arcy Echols on a Model 70 action with a 24" Kreiger barrel and a 1.5-5X Leupold scope that is an extremely trim, handy, and accurate rifle. It feeds so smoothly, surely, and effortlessly that you really have to work the action yourself to get the picture. It has Echols' special magazine box that holds four-down (plus one more in the chamber), yet it's no deeper or bulkier than a standard factory magazine. No drop-box magazine is required.

With Echols' stock design, recoil is very reasonable for what you're getting in terms or power, and this is easily one of the top five big game rifles I've ever owned (out of more than 200) and the cartridge itself adds greatly to the appeal of the rifle. I'll never sell it, and it's headed to Tanzania with me next season for buffalo, lion, hippo, and so forth.

Quite honestly, I think the .416 Remington is one of the most practical, intelligent, and useful cartridges ever designed - right up there with such greats as the .375 H&H, .30-06, etc. in my estimate......

AD

bwana,
I'll be at a range saturday the 9th , i believe.. you can shoot my 416 and see what you think
jeffe

[ 07-25-2003, 23:15: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

thanks for the offer jeffe i might take you up on it will let you know but it's hard to make plans with a new baby in the house

I think those who pack the damn things 8 to 10 hours a day will go with the 416 Remington caliber...

I also like the 416 Remington caliber in a Mauser or M-70 pre 64 action in that order, at 9 Lbs. It is more compact, lighter, lean and mean with the same balistics....

Brass is cheaper if thats a plus??

Both calibers are excellent choices and whichever way you go, you will be satisfied.

Funny thing is in Australia I never see .416 Rem brass around but always see Rigby brass being offered So the situation COULD be the opposite down here.

I love the Rigby.

I just had to make a similar decision and choose the .416 Rem in a custom M70 action. I liked the fact that, if necessary, I could get .416 ammo over the counter easier and the brass is cheaper. Personally, I doubt anything I hit with it will tell the difference between it and a Rigby.

Go with the Rigby. Do it for all the reasons posted by 475Guy. I had to make this choice over a year ago after shooting both and give me the heavier Ruger Rigby anytime. Also you can only load the Remington up so far but the Rigby you can load down for whatever and up to almost match the mighty .416 Weatherby. Lawdog

With the history and nostalgia attached to the Rigby, why would you want to consider the Remington. Although the Rem is an excellent cartridge, the Rigby is like the 375 H & H.

A lot of history and still around is the sign of success at what it was designed to do.

While something newer always does something just a little better, how much more range or penetration will a 416Rem really give you over the Rigby?

Class comes with age. I really wonder if the Remington will be around in 50 yrs much less a hundred.

Seafire,

This is just all personal preference stuff.

One can mimick Rigby performance (400 gr., 2400 fps) with the Rem. and get one or two more in a magazine.

The .375 case has wound up as the basis for a range of everything one might need in Africa:

.375 H&H, .416 Rem., .458 WM/Lott.

More power to inventive minds!

Seafire, the reason to choose the .416 Remington over the .416 Rigby isn't about power and reach, because both cartridges produce the same ballistics.

The .416 Remington will allow you to build a lighter, handier rifle with a higher magazine capacity, and of course the ammo is lighter and less bulky as well.

AD

My decision was based on firing several rounds of both before plunking my hard earned scratch down. 1) The Fricking Rem is too light and both Rem's & Win's don't fit me worth a damn. The stocks on both would cause my rotator cuff to throb with intense pain. 2) When shooting heavy calibers, the weight factor is the one to consider as stated before, they soak up recoil better without alot of monkeying around.

I see no reason for a 416 to weigh more than 9 or 9.5 lbs...but then there are us'ens that carry a gun and them what just shoots'em....

As to Nostalgia? the Rigbys only claim to fame was Hemmingway, and Ruark, not good references, but then there was a couple of PHs that liked it and that counts....It was never used extensively in Africa until recently, just lots of written words about it...the 404, 9.3x62, 303 were the guns of Africa, trade guns. I have read a lot about these 3.....

I made this decision about a year ago - went with the M 70 in 416 Rem, for the same reasons listed above. Factory ammo by several domestic manufacturers, high magazine capacity, rifle with a good reputation. Of course it helped that my local dealer had one on the shelf.

Thanks every body for all your input (I think) all this advice has really helped to cloud things up!!! Maybe the wife will go for both remington and rigby.!!!!

Even if used for hunting, 99% of the time it isn't going to make any difference.

The Rigby was used by quite a few "real" professional ivory hunters, but so were a lot of other calibers.

Like I said before, and as did Allen Day, the Rem. is just handier, rifle and ammo wise. Something to consider if used for hunting, especially if getting over the hill as I am.

Over-The-Hill .. my ass. The best is yet to come, you bubbly little cherib, you.

I went with the Remington. I talked to everybody that would listen at Dallas SCI, including all the custom rifle people. When D'arcy Echols and Ray Adkinson said the same thing, that made up my mind. I couldn't be happier, it is a shooter. Now just to make my mind up about where and with whom to hunt. Good shooting.

History and nostalgia? Along with all the other good reasons to choose the Remington version is that they practically stole George Hoffman's cartridge. It may not have his name on the headstamp, but it should. Reminisisce on him every time you drop a 400 grain solid in the magazine. If his legacy doesn't last 100 years it's a crying shame.

Looking ahead, Remington might be backing it self in a corner. My point, with Remington's Ultra series....7mm, 300, 338 and now the 375 Ultra. It sounds like the wildcat side of house is already necking out the 375 Ultra to 416 Ultra......Folks that are wildcat'ers claim that there's less pressure at the same speed with wildcat 416 Ultra verses the 416 Rem. Mag. Oh the problems in life......

Well all those "wildcatters" are once again re-inventing the wheel, the Germans and English blew the 404 case out, in and up and down to every known caliber, not to mention Guns&Ammo and an army of gun builders for 10 years prior to Remington...

The best thing to come out of all this is we now have a supply of 404 Jefferys brass, the best round ever to come about and on a case that feeds and extracts like poop out of a goose...

Which brings up a point, I always wondered why wildcatters only think in terms of velocity, bullet weight, and case designs to get that last drop of FPS, even on DGRs and that is the least improtant part of a DGR, feeding and extraction are first and 2400 FPS is second and thats the easiest part, they all do that...

ok??.........My point was, if you are Remington, do you compete against yourself? Bring out a .416 Remington Ultra Mag in direct competition with .416 Rem. Mag?

I'm not a marketing guy, but the point is you have to bring out new products to keep up sales.

I have not decided whether the .416 Rem is enough gun, but I don't think an UltraMag version is going to break any barriers.

Well knowing Remington, they will discontinue the 416 Rem brass as they have done many times before in an effort to sell the 416 RUM...The Rum should be a good caliber and it will clean up a 416 Rem chamber I understand...

I just hate Remington, they are always pulling that kind of crap...sold me a 5MM then discontinued ammo a year later...then the 280 and changed it several times..I almost wore out two reamers trying to keep up...222 Rem Mag. and then a few others I think...oh well! I don't mind them quiting building a rifle, but to sell you rifle and then stop ammo manufacture is next to criminal...Even Win. makes a special run now and then on their older calibers...

Remington bean counters are the lowest form of humam kind since the Texas scalp hunters..

The 416 Rigby is the greatest big game hunting cartridge of all time. With it you can easily have a 9# rifle that holds 4 in the magazine and one up the spout. And it doesn't break a sweat when the Remington is redlining to get the same velocity. Its beltless, well tapered case with sharp shoulder is the ultimate for feeding and extraction. Low pressure doesn't hurt anything in the heat of battle either. Bullet availability is much better and varied than the 404.

Hell, I agree with everybody! In fact I like .416's so much I bought one in each flavor, a Winchester Custom Shop Model 70 in .416 Rem. Mag. and a Sterling Davenport custom .416 Rigby. Have shot buff with the Rem. Mag. and am currently scoping the Rigby for an upcoming hunt to Tanzania for a 2 buff with Ridge Taylor. If I could just find a .416 Hoffman now or maybe a Taylor or.....................................
Sometimes being indecisive is a real plus!

Whatever degree of fame the Rigby has derived from actual field use, was attained at velocities closer to 2,300 fps than 2,400, which the Remington round safely exceeds, in any rifle. For the hunting of DG, there is no practical advantage in lugging about the extra pounds of nostalgia.

[ 08-03-2003, 16:22: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

BS, Nick.

My latest factory CZ 550 Magnum in .416 Rigby weighs 9.5#
My factory Winchester Safari Express in .416 Rem.: 9.25#
I weighed a Ruger 77 .416 Rigby at 9.5#

:with all rifles in similar states of undress (You have to add the Weaver style steel bases to the Winchester to bring it up to speed of the naked Ruger and CZ integral bases).

I have seen and weighed a CZ .416 Rigby that weighed less than 9# with a light stock.

There is no reason a .416 Rigby has to weigh more than 1/2 pound over a .416 Remington of similar conformation.

Sure you could go to extremes of an ultralight rifle in either caliber, but that would be unwise. A featherweight .416 Rigby could be devised that would be lighter than most .416 Remington rifles.

Ask Harry Selby how much his M98 actioned .416 Rigby weighed.

In any case there are not "pounds" of nostalgia involved.

The Rigby was ahead of its time when invented in 1911. It is just now that the rest of the world has caught up with the Rigby. The greatest new/old cartridge ever designed for big game hunting, imitated by the .416 Remington.

Now, about that Sabi Ranger in 404 Jeffery, how much does it weigh?

[ 08-03-2003, 18:30: Message edited by: DagaRon ]

Daga
I suggest you weigh a CZ 550 action and compare to the Model 70. Further, I suggest you then fill the CZ with .416 Rigby cartridges, fill the Model 70 with an equal number of .416 Remington cartridges and compare again. Don't be misled by by variables in wood density and barrel contour.
The Remington makes up into a much lighter and trimmer package, as stated, even with the extra round in the magazine.

Nick,
I don't have the actions at hand, but reference material serves:

Mauser 98 action weight: 45.2 ounces

Then the .375 H&H length and true magnum actions:

Winchester Model 70 Pre-64: 45.5 oz.
Magnum Mauser: 54.0 oz.
BRNO ZKK 602: 56.0 oz.
BBK-02: 52.5 oz.

By the time John Rigby & Co. opened the M98 up for the Rigby it would be even lighter than the Winchester. That is obvious.

Also, the drop box plus one up the spout will make for possible capacity of 5 .416 Rigby and 7 .416 Remingtons.

Stuffing all those cartridges in the Remington will likely make the ammo weight greater than the Rigby. Anybody want to weigh some 400 grain loaded cartridges for the .416 Rigby and the .416 Remington?

All this ballerina stuff about light and handy .416 rifles is nonsense! They should all weigh close to 9.5 pounds for best handling.

Let us not forget the advantages of low pressures and perfect feeding, extraction, and headspacing with the Rigby. That does indeed tip the balance in favor of the Rigby.

My how I long for a cute little M98 Rigby to play ballerina with!

[ 08-03-2003, 23:40: Message edited by: DagaRon ]

I'm rather glad that my .416 Ruger isn't any lighter. They are called heavy rifles for a reason, they need to be. I don't want an 8-pound .375 either. The biggest advantage I can see is the Rigby can be loaded almost 2700 fps with a 400 grain bullet, pressure is probably the same as the Remington at 2450-2500. I'm not sure the velocity is needed, but it's there if you decide you need it.

Daga, Lighten up. This isn't about which is the better cartridge but which is preferred. To me, 10 oz of action weight and another ounce in ammo weight is not "nonsense" and constitutes a damn good start in overall weight reduction. I don't need a 9.5 lbs .416.

Get him Nick.

My Mod. 70 with a Sonny Hill drop box weighs 8.9 lbs. and will hold 4 down, while the CZ weighed 9.3 lbs. and held 3 down.

The 0.4 lbs. and slimmer package just makes it easier to handle.

But whatever you think is fine with me!

they are the "same" delivery package... choose which one you want,,,

btw the cz holds 4 down

jeffe