You know what, guys? This subject is getting like some of the other topics already posted where everyone is convinced they made the right choice with their preference. Basically, you either like the Rem or you like the Ruger. No 'tweeners. And furthermore, it ain't gonna change anybody's mind.

475Guy, you are right. I had an 8.75# .416 Rigby, but it is rebarreled to 45 Lapua with a different stock. My future rifle quest will be to have a .416 Rigby built on a Model 98 or pre-64 Model 70 and get a graphite/Kevlar/fiberglass stock made for it. I predict 7 pounds bare weight for this .416 Rigby, just as a stunt. Then I can add 2.5 pounds of scope, mounts, sling, ammo and muzzle brake to it when I want to shoot it. All I will ask of this rifle is 3 down and one up the spout. I shall keep y'all informed of progress toward whiplash.

Jeffeosso,
Close, but let us give the Rigby a little credit for lower pressures and smoother feeding, and better extraction, and more positive headspacing. Oops! that's enough out of me for now!
Aloha

... and more recoil, per a given velocity.

Rigby 400 @ 2,400 = 67 ft. lbs in a 9.25 lbs. rifle.

Remington 400 @ 2,400 = 61 ft.lbs. in a 8.50 lbs. rifle.

http://huntamerica.com/recoil_calculator/

[ 08-04-2003, 15:26: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Daga,
I'll give you all by the headspace...

belt's aint nuttin but a rim moved up!!
<grin>
jeffe

Thanks, Nick.

This just gets better and better....as the Al Gore Rigby guys try to find more chads.

and higher muzzle pressure. I love the big, old cases and wonder about muzzle pressure (blast) effect on shootability more than the extra recoil. Quickload shows the Rigby to have about 1000ftlb more than the Rem. Just wondering.

PS: quickload shows that a 8.7lb rem rifle recoils same as 9.25lb rigby

Lets see, how do i add a belt to my Rigby...

rgds,

steve

As to weight, I had weight ADDED to my Rigby. The recoil was plenty for my money at about 9 pounds of factory weight. It weighs about 10 and a quarter now and recoil is just a big push. Mine also holds 4 all together. If I can't put em down with 4 rounds of 400gr/416 I am not sure 5 will help me. Good hunting. "D"

HO HO HO GEEZE HO HO HO!!!

This is really getting funny now guys!

Will is using rhetorical concoctions, "straw man propositions" (someone help me with terminology), falsehoods that imply the Rigby camp is whupped!

Comparing us to Al Gore chasing chad? That hurts! What an insult!

Actually this contest was played out a while back, and King of the cartridge heap was the .416 Rigby by a landslide. Do a search, you will find it.

Oh, BTW, I guess a 500 A2 is a whole lot better cartridge than the .505 Gibbs, just like the .416 Remington is better than the .416 Rigby, eh?

You know, the .416 Rigby is such a great cartridge, it will grow on you. Sort of like the .505 Gibbs grew on Nick. I think he said it was a "beautiful" thing, the .505 Gibbs, yet the Rigby is el stinko? And all along I thought he was a practical guy! Go figure!

Falsehoods and a bit of philosophical inconsistency in the .416 Remington camp?

DagaRon,

On the semi-serious side, the only thing I didn't like about the Rigby was I couldn't get more than 3 in the CZ 550 magazine. Four down was completely impossible and not even close to fitting, so I don't understand the claims.

Converting to the Rem. allows me to get 4 down. If I went with a CZ built for it, I could get 5 down, but I like the Mod. 70 action and it is a simpler conversion with a new drop-box magazine.

I had one occasion when I needed 5 rounds, and I'm not going back.

Ain't we lucky to have so many choices?

[ 08-06-2003, 10:04: Message edited by: Will ]

Ray and Bill Stewart:

Keep in mind, my response is from a guy who prefers to carry a 6.5 x 55, or a 7mm Mauser or a 30/30, 30/40Krag in the field, just because they have been around along time. My favorite 30/06 is actually the cheapest one I own, a 1917 sportized Enfield, with the 26inch original barrel. Although manufactured in 1918, it is the most accurate 30/06 I own. Newer is not always that much better.

Besides us older guys have to keep the flag flying for " older stuff". Otherwise, some of these young guys will post a thread on " Are these old hunters really any good anymore".

Tradition, nothing more than tradition would motivate my choice. Of course I would rather have a New 1950 Chevy Pickup than a new $40,000.00 2003 Chevy Pickup.

[ 08-06-2003, 11:18: Message edited by: seafire ]

[ 08-06-2003, 17:03: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

[ 08-06-2003, 17:04: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

[ 08-06-2003, 17:05: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

[ 08-06-2003, 17:06: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

[ 08-06-2003, 17:08: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

[ 08-06-2003, 17:09: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DagaRon:
[qb]
"Actually this contest was played out a while back, and King of the cartridge heap was the .416 Rigby by a landslide."

Once again,this is not a "contest" but a discussion of user preference and the reasons for it.

"Oh, BTW, I guess a 500 A2 is a whole lot better cartridge than the .505 Gibbs, just like the .416 Remington is better than the .416 Rigby, eh?"

In a way, YES ... from the perspective of their being intended for smokeless powders, they are trimmer, more efficient and offer the desired ballistics with increased magazine capacity.

"You know, the .416 Rigby is such a great cartridge, it will grow on you. Sort of like the .505 Gibbs grew on Nick. I think he said it was a "beautiful" thing, the .505 Gibbs, yet the Rigby is el stinko? And all along I thought he was a practical guy! Go figure!

One more time ... From the standpoint of recoil, I have no need for a hefty rifle in .416. In.50 caliber, the 9lbs. + rifle is a given and, along with my desire to use 600 grain bullets, rendered the Gibbs a viable choice. It still proved to be larger than needed but I had no way to project such, from the armchair. I do like the case, especially now, with Horneber brass.

"Falsehoods and a bit of philosophical inconsistency in the .416 Remington camp?"

You have my explanation. The only person even suggesting that the Rigby was "El Stinko" was you.

[ 08-06-2003, 16:45: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Have you developed a twitch there Nick? Twelve posts, eleven edited out? My oh my that was impressive! How did that happen?

Will brought the contest aspect into it by comparing the Rigby camp to Al Gore chasing chad. The previous Rigby thread was actually one extolling the virtues of the greatest big game cartridge of all time, BUT the majority of posters responding to it did agree, overwhelmingly so.

Recipe for a 7 pound .416 Rigby:

Pre-64 Win M-70 action that used to be a 300 H&H: the magazine box as is will actually hold 3 rounds of .416 Rigby loaded with 400 grain Trophy Bonded bullets, Federal factory loads that are only about 3.600" COL, and allow the bolt to close easily over the top of them. As is, it will feed the Rigby pretty good just pushing the cartridges ahead of the extractor as the action is worked. For COL out to 3.750" the action and magazine box would have to be opened up by 0.100". It has been done before.

Brown Precision "Pounder" stock.

Sporter barrel 23" long, 0.666" at the muzzle. About a No. 3.5 contour.

Express sights.

Eureka! A well balanced seven pound .416 Rigby, slim and trim. Those old Pre-64 magazine boxes are a little wider than the current ones, don't you know.

Of course I am getting old. Better put some rugged scope mounts and a Leupold on it to get the weight up some. No muzzle brake.

I am glad you don't think the Rigby is a stinker, Nick. I don't either.

[ 08-07-2003, 08:04: Message edited by: DagaRon ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DagaRon:
[QB]Have you developed a twitch there Nick? Twelve posts, eleven edited out? My oh my that was impressive! How did that happen?

Better to ask Don Greenbaum the answer to that.

ALOHA

Which of the two cartridges is more available in Africa?

Pete E:

What does cartridge availability in africa have to do with this thread??

The guys down in Texas consider the 416 bore a minimum for Prairie dogs and deer down that way!

Doesn't the news in Europe tell you us Yanks rebore AK 47s to 416 so we can knock off a convenience store?

Daga,
The 300 will hold that number of 416 down, but I would almost assure you that the stack would be wrong for proper function...

I hate to say it boys but the 416 Rigby is history, it has lost its place to the populace and the 404 is a runaway success...sorry

Now my idea of a DGR might be that big CZ action with 6 or 7 404,s down in that big box...

Did I stir the pot Will????????

I'm pretty sure that if the 416 Rem were available by 1920, it would have dominated the African hunting market more than the Rigby, but it would have also needed the new Hodgdon Extreme powders to do so. The lower pressures of the Rigby in that heat was a serious consideration for experienced professionals.

I have a 416 Rem in a limited edition, 22 inch bbl Model 700 and at 8 lbs it handles like a carbine. It has a lapped bbl, trigger job and Answer Systems brake and pad combo. I shot it for a year without the brake, and it was fine for hunting applications...in fact most folks used to big bors won't need the brake.

The 416 Rem has the same expansion ratio as the 308 Win in equal length bbls and shoots bullets twice the weight to the same velocity with a 10% gain in SD. A 22 inch bbl is plenty, and many reloaders use powders that are too fast with the 400 gr bullets. Its a moderate pressure 2500 fps proposition with AA, IMR or H4350using once fired brass, compressed loads and a good crimp. Never even had a flat primer in over 1000 rounds of testing in my ballistics lab, and sub MOA at the range. 500 gr Hawks bullets do 2230 fps with R19 and will stop anything on the planet with a SD of .413.

Yes, when Rem comes out with the 416 RUM, I will clean up the chamber or add an optional bbl and insert the RUM magazine box. This new round is simply a 375 RUM necked up to 416, good for +100 fps and gets rid of the silly belt. More importantly, case capacity is increased enough to use the 4350 powders without compression at a nice 95% load density, and the RUM cases are much stronger.

I think you really need to work with a compact 416 Rem to fully appreciate it. By African standards, its really a carbine offering 375 H&H trajectories and 1000 extra FPE with the stopping power of the 458 Lott in close. As big bores go, recoil is not a problem.

[ 08-10-2003, 05:48: Message edited by: Sabot ]

Ray,
So I have to get a new box and follower. No problem if a 7 pound .416 Rigby is to be created. It will be worth the trouble.

You will only get 4 of the 404's into the CZ Box without alteration. A Wisner pocket plate would be nice there too, for the extra room.

When I get too feeble to handle the seven pound .416 Rigby, I will have to rebarrel a CZ .375 H&H into a 404 Jeffery.

Daga,
Thats what I ben telling you kid!! when you get feeble and such you will have to modify and become a 404 fan...You owe it to yourself anyway...

Howsomever, after looking at the 416 Rigby that Alf posted the other day, I do have visions of a duplicate of such...I always reserve the option of changing my mind....mind you