Can cast bullets be made hard enough to run 2100-2300 fps? I'm looking for a less expensive source of practice bullets for my 404J and cast would likely be a good idea if the regular load can be duplicated without excessive leading. I REALLY want to shoot this rifle like it's my old 270 so I must shoot it a bunch...and I really DON'T want to pay jacketed bullet prices!

Andy, good morning to you.

This is a very timely question for me, because just last week I received my new NEI mould for the .404 Jeffery.

My .404 rifle has a groove diameter of .4185, and I ordered NEI #233, which is stated to cast at .421" diameter. NEI says their moulds will be within ".000 to .003" of stated diameter, and mine does indeed cast wheelweight alloy at .421". They call it a 390-grain bullet, and in my alloy it weighs 399 grains. I'm sizing at .419".

If your rifle has the (apparently) more-common .423" +/- diameter, NEI catalogs their #237, a 350-grain gas-checked design, stated to cast at .424"....just about perfect. It's a nice-looking semi-pointed bullet with a very small flat meplat. Should be excellent for feeding from the magazine. Use .44-caliber gaschecks.

I called NEI to place my order on Friday, May 26. All their moulds are cut only to order, with none being kept "in stock". Nevertheless, I had my new mould in my hot little hands on Saturday, June 3....EIGHT DAYS after placing the order!!! Now, THAT is service!

I haven't pushed my new .404 design very hard at all, since it's so new, but I"ve used a 365-grain RCBS cast bullet in my .416 Rigby for years, and it tolerates speeds up to 2600+ with no difficulty. 2100 fps is a slam-dunk. I've even fired pure-lead versions of the .416 bullet at 2000 fps without leading. Note that the bore MUST be rid of all copper-jacket fouling before cast bullets will give their best results.

NEI's website is www.neihandtools.com and you'll want to look at page 9 in their catalog.

I've been praising cast bullets for big-bore practice loads here at AR for years, but very few people seem interested. In the saving-money category, are you aware that .375 Ultra Mag brass makes excellent .404 cases? Just size one case down a bit at a time, and try it in your rifle each time you size it further. When the case JUST chambers and allows the bolt to cam closed with a bit of "feel", lock the sizer at that position and size all the cases.

Twenty grains of 2400 powder, followed by filling the case almost to the mouth with cornmeal, makes a fine fire-forming load. (I usually tuck a bit of toilet tissue or dacron fiber into the case mouth to hold everything in place during transport.)

The rifle should be fired straight up in the air with these loads, as firing horizontally can give uneven case mouths. I haven't lost a single case in doing this, and good .404 brass for $12/20 is a heck of a fine deal....much better than $2 each!

If you follow up on this and get a mould, I have some load info which might be of use to you.
Keep us posted, OK???

If you're not into casting your own, check out this thread;

http://beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

I have shot some of them and didn't get great accuracy but have to admit, I really didn't try working up any different loads to improve accuracy. I will say they would all stay in a dinner plate at 100 yards. For cast bullets, they are a little pricey. If you already cast for other cartridges, the NEI mold would probably be the way to go.

Bren Mk1 - I would be interested in your cast bullet loading data. I'm awful lazy when it comes to spending a LOT of time working up loads and would love to try yours.
As to the .375 RUM cases, you're spot on. I have CH-4D dies and can actually form them in one pass through the dies using Imperial Sizing Die wax. I haven't lost a one using this method.

I have some Beartooth's coming. They told me several folks run their 380 grain GCs at 2300 fps with no leading. $60 for a couple hundred bullets is high for cast but not compared to jacketed bullets.

For my rifle loads I drop the bullets straight out of the mold into water- they go from a BHN of 16-18 to a BHN of 28-30- they gradually loose hardness over a year or two so this only works for bullets you intend to use soonish.

I gass check them ( in both .404 and 9,3) Without using fancy lube I get 2100fps with no leading, with LBT blue or similar I get 2300fps ok. Never got fantastic accuracy though with south African powders. Suspect I should use a slower powder but have vast stocks of 335 & 355 so to go out and smuggle in 365 or 385 and work up a load...

I tried some heavy 44mag cast bullets in mine, they seem fine at 2000fps or so but then shooting jacketed after is a problem as you must clean the bbl. first. My solution for cheap practice loads is to size down 300gr/44mag bullets to .423. I use Lee bullet sizers in .427 & .423, using Imperial sizing wax & do them in two steps. They are reasonably accurate at least at 100yds (1.5moa). I run them about 2300fps+, pretty cheap shooting & if I want to run some full house loads, I don't have to clean inbetween.
I also tried the .375RUM case & fireform just like Bren but I use 4227, creamofhweat & a wax plug. They make great practice brass, feed perectly but I still would only use them for practice.

.

Andy,
here's my standing advice on cast bullets in big bores...

SAY UNDER 2200 FPS with the hardest GAS CHECKED bullets you can get...

2000 is better... I done some shooting hard as a lawyer's heart casts, and all the way to 2200 they were fine... 2300 leaded the #@%$@#%$ outo f the barrel...

jeffe

I use 265gr Hornady .44 Cal pistol bullets swaged down (I think its swaged to .425" - my gunsmith supplies me with them). I think those bullets are pretty cheap. No messing around with lead casting.

Regards
JohnT

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
I tried some heavy 44mag cast bullets in mine, they seem fine at 2000fps or so but then shooting jacketed after is a problem as you must clean the bbl. first. My solution for cheap practice loads is to size down 300gr/44mag bullets to .423. I use Lee bullet sizers in .427 & .423, using Imperial sizing wax & do them in two steps. They are reasonably accurate at least at 100yds (1.5moa). I run them about 2300fps+, pretty cheap shooting & if I want to run some full house loads, I don't have to clean inbetween.
I also tried the .375RUM case & fireform just like Bren but I use 4227, creamofhweat & a wax plug. They make great practice brass, feed perectly but I still would only use them for practice.

Fred, Are these jacketed .44 mag bullets you size down? If so, are the Lee sizing dies special order? Thanks, Bob

Yes VFR1, I ordered a .423 dia. sizer from Lee, something like $25. Then bought a .427 dia. & size them in 2 steps as indicated. 300gr 44mag bullets are cheap compared to even the Hawk 300gr & just as accurate in my rifle.

For my .404, I once did an experimental sizing-down of Sierra .429" 300-grain jacketed handgun bullets to .424".

I have a die body modified to retain a regular Lyman or RCBS lube-sizer die, so that the lube/size die can be used in a regular loading press, which is much stronger than a lube-sizer and also has much greater mechanical advantage.

Pre-lubing the bullets with a case-lube pad and RCBS Case Lube II allowed fairly easy sizing-down of the Sierras. Since one of the original loadings for the .404 used a 300-grain bullet, I was hoping for decent results from these bullets, but it turned out to be a disappointing exercise. Accuracy was poor.

Cast bullets work fine for me, and I do NOT consider the making of them to be any sort of "work". Rather, it's an interesting extension to my shooting hobbys and an endlessly-fascinating series of experiments. My rifles and bullets don't recognise Jeff's 2200 fps cast-bullet limit, but after all, the .404 made its reputation with 400s at 2150, so it's not much of an issue here!

I did try the new NEI 400-grain bullet in my .416 Rigby, by the way. I sized it down a further .002" to .417", and loaded a small run of about 15 rounds. Driven by 47.5 grains of XMP 5744 (with a dacron filler tuft), the velocity average was 1901 fps and I managed to put six rounds in less than one inch at fifty yards (from a rest, of course!). This would seem to indicate that a follow-up might be worthwhile, even though the RCBS 416-350 also works VERY well in my .416 rifle.