?

let me add some variation...in the form of a full-length 550/.458 Gibbs. That different enough to make the grade?

Merry Christmas

Rich
NRA Life Member
DRSS

then came along the 458 AR..
based off the RUM case, fits in a STANDARD action, feeds like a coon hound, and has 4% more case than the lott.

sometimes it takes awhile for the right combine to boil out!

jeffe

Alf, I'm not sure I would agree in the "basically do the same thing in terms of balistics" category. They all throw a .458 caliber bullet out there but the .458 African Express, for instance, isn't in the same ballistic league as a .450 Rigby or .460 Weatherby, and doesn't try to be either. It seems to me that there are two major design philosophies at work: 1) maximum velocity and 2) get 2,200 fps with a 500 grain bullet and try to get bolt travel lessened or pressure down.

?

?

Alf, in that case the cartridges that fit in a "standard" length action ought to be "better". No?

quote:

The 45's where are we headed?

We are headed to further overpopulation of the sectionn of COTW on wildcats, many cartridges that are defunct as of the date of introduction, and lots of rifles that are worth parts value only because of their goofy chambering.

quote:

Each and every one of these unique and proclaimed different cartridges offer little over the other in reality.

In all seriousness the same can be said for almost every caliber.

As an example...take the 30 cals.....

Nuff said there....I really don't see the 45 cals as much different....in reality there are only a few serious candidates and the others have their place in a very few cabinets.

Take the top three 45 cals out of the race and how many guns do we have left.....maybe 5%?

Alf,

I think it is just a combination of "name", action and brass availability.

We have the 458 Win and the 460 Wby as the starting points.

The 458 Lott or 450 Ackley are the easiest way to up the 458 Win and especially for those who own the 458 Win. By "easiest" I also include brass in the equation.

450 Dakota....well, Dakota would hardly want to chamber their most powerful rifle in 460 Wby.

450 Rigby....probably the initial thoughts were that with the rebirth of the 416 Rigby then the 450 Rigby would be a goer and based on the Rigby headstamp would be the choice for the top end custom wood gun on a Magnum Mauser.

450 Dakota and 450 Rigby also suit the timing of "belted is bad" and low pressure is the go.

The 404 and RUM based 45s, both short and long offer the easiest road to the most power from standard actions and with the 404/RUM 2,5" versions allowing standard length action/magazines to equal the 458 Lott.

Mike

I think the British had is solved with the 450 3 1/4" and the 450 No2 Nitro Express.

Winchester dropped the ball with the combination fo the short 458 Win Mag case and ball powder.

Ever since "Modern Man" has been trying to fine a commercial success for the "458 Problem".

So far all of them have been too few/rare, and or too much recoil.

If Winchester would have come put with a 458 on the full length 375 H&H case with a 480 gr bullet at 2150 fps the "problem" would have been solved.

What were they thinking???

quote:

What were they thinking???

Stuart Olsen (I think that is his name) in his book on bolt actions said Winchester wanted to settle on a standard length action after the Pre 64...which as you know is shorter than the post 64 actions......but marketing dept etc felt the 375 H&H needed to be retained and they made the longer receiver as a result.

The other point which may have been an issue was bolt travel. I have shot a heap of roos with both M70 in 300 Win and M70 in 375 and on the same shooting trip....and when you do a lot of shooting the different bolt travels are quite noticeable. Perhaps when the 458 was introduced a much larger amount of shooting was being done.

Winchester at that time might also have been thinking along the line of Wby with a family of cartridges all the same such as 264, 300, 338 and 458. Most people seem to think that if the 308 Norma had not been introduced then the 300 Win would have been a 30/338.

Mike

quote:

What were they thinking???

"Short Magnums" were the rage then.
Sound familiar.
I always wondered why it made folks so tired to crank a bolt an extra .300.

I think Wink and Mike have it about right as far as what is and mayby why........But 450 no 2 is imho 100% right .. A basic 450 Watts design with a 480 gr bullet @ 2150 or say 2200 as a round figure.........For the cost and convience the 458 AR is the smart one......But if someone asked which one I would not want or would not use.........I want them ALL.........Which one is superflous ,,, NONE ,,, Because they all work and most of the time work very well !!!!!!And each one is just perfact for many people......