OK, Gentlemen, this isn't meant to be a pissing contest.
I've inquired on another Forum about the 'WHY' difference between the .45-70 and say, the .458 Win.Mag. or Lott.

The basic answer is that the .45-70 case capacity cannot achieve the FPE requirement of several African countries 'rules' or laws for the bottom line in a Dangerous Game Rifle.

This is not to say that the .45-70 cannot or has not done the job; it merely means that a 'requirement' has been dictated and the .45-70 is NOT able to meet it...
The term 'horsepower' has been used, but as an old Hot Rodder, I equate it more to 'TORQUE'.
Low end. Close up. Short distance.
THAT seems to be the difference.
MORE POWDER. MORE INITIAL POWER.
Simple.

Can any of you add more to my understanding of this phenomenon WITHOUT causing arguments?
I'm merely trying to understand the mathematics of what I can only guess is 'internal ballistics'.
THANKS!

It's really quite simple let's put it in gearhead terms.

Think of a bullet casing as an engine. Lets think of case capacity as cubic inches.


The hottest 200 cubic inch engine cannot produce as much horse power (or torque) as the hottest 500 cubic inch engine.

The .45-70 lacks case capacity or for you gear heads doesn't have enough cubes dude.

A .45-70 will never be able to push a 500gr bullet at the same velocity as a .458Lott or a .470NE PERIOD

Your statement about drag racers over on TFL is flawed in that the .45-70 is a rat mottor and the NE or a Lott is a big cube motor. One coming out of the hole faster but both finishing the 1/4 at the same time.

The .45-70 is a sport class car and the .458 Lott is a top fuel rail that's the difference.

And your little ole Camero (.45-70) with a homey hot rod 350 in it will not come out of the hole faster and will not finish faster than the top fuel rail the (.458 lott or say a .470 NE.) It just ain't going to happen.

It's really that simple.

Also known as H&Hhunter on other sights.

surestrike, well said. I have both 45-70 and 458 Lott. No way and no how, can a 45-70 do the job of the Lott. I have had to put down a cow here on the place and I used the 45-70 to see what would happen. The answer turned out to be NOT MUCH. Two shoulder shots and she just stood there and bled out the nose. Had to give her one behind the ear to put her out of her misery. The Lott would have been the better choice, if I had had it at the time.

Hog Killer

I'm not sure it has much to do at all with rules.
The 45/70 is great at what it does, but it was never meant to handle dangerous game up close. It's handy and makes a big hole. But not in a Cape Buffalo's skull - at least not reliably enough for most folks behind the sights. I'm sure a man could get trampled shooting a Lott or even a 500 A-Square. But I'll put my money (and life) on the bigger bullet, going plenty fast. 400g at 1850 ain't all that in my eyes. But for venison harvesting? Oh yes.

I find it useful to place the 45-70 in a lineup of cartridges with known effect on dangerous game to see where it fits.

303 British - Originally designed as a military cartridge (people shooter), when pushing a 215 grain solid at 2050 fps, it proved to have sufficient penetration to be a serviceable elephant round. However, I would prefer to use something larger.



577/450 Martini Hentry - 480 grain bullet at 1350 fps. Not a dangerous game cartridge by any stretch of the imagination due to poor penetration. Limited to use on plains game. The old time elephant hunters found the .303 British to be a much better elephant cartridge than the 577/450. Note the velocity difference between the 577/450 versus the .303 British.



45/70 - 500 grain bullet at 1530 fps. Note that the velocity is in the range of the 577/450 and well below the velocity of UNSUCCESSFUL 458 loads. Note that this is a very hot factory load that is only safe in modern rifles.



458 Winchester Magnum. Originally loaded to the anemic ballistics of a 500 grain bullet at 1700 to 1900 fps. Penetration was so poor on some elephant shot that the game control officer could stick his finger into the bullet hole and touch the base of the bullet (4 inches of penetration or so). Modern loads pushing a 450 grain bullet above 2100 fps work quite well, however.



470 Nitro Express - The yardstick by which all other DG cartridges are judged and the PH cartridge of choice in double guns. 500 grain bullet at 2150 fps.



In this list we can see that the 45-70 falls 500 fps short of the velocity level where penetration is satisfactory, and that it falls 200 to 400 fps short of the old 458 Win Mag loads that were not successful and that earned the 458 Win Mag a bad reputation.

Who cares, since hardly any .45-70 owners will ever use a .45-70 on African dangerous game?

George

quote:

Who cares, since hardly any .45-70 owners will ever use a .45-70 on African dangerous game?

George

Its obvious BusMaster007 cares otherwise he would not have wasted his time posting the question.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

See, it say's it right there on the box.
Elephant/Rhino/Hippo

HA!HA!
just kidding. I think your answer was right on target.

Terry

I think the whole controversy hinges on the comparison of an excellent "lever Action Round" and a very good "DG Round". We are talking apples and oranges here. The 45-70 is wonderful for use in a fast handling lever gun and has proven itself time and again. But that it seems is not enough for some people, they want to move it up a class into the league of Dangerous Game rounds. This is just madness.
It's unfair to the fine 45-70 and it's insulting to the list of true DG rounds.
Oh the difference a few hundred feet per second make!

Hey, you guys are GOOD!

surestrike ( H&Hhunter ) ,
I'll quote myself ( BusGunner007 ) from TFL to clarify my HotRod analogy:

quote:

Using a drag race as an example...
Two cars ( representing the cartridges ) that are essentially the same weight ( representing the rifles ) race the 1/4 mile and finish at the same time.
The one with the most 'torque' gets the holeshot and covers the 1/8 mile harder and faster ( representing the larger case capacity ).

.45-70 = small-block Chevy 'Mouse' motor.
458 Lott = big-block Chevy 'RAT' motor.

DGR cartridge needs to have the 'TORQUE' up close.
So, regardless of the 'magic formula' I was referring to earlier, the extra case capacity of the DGR cartridge is what gives the minimum FPE at the muzzle required by law in some countries.

If the rules in my theoretical drag race were like the laws of the land in the areas of Africa mentioned, then everybody'd be racing BIG BLOCKS.
They'd have to in order to get the "holeshot" ( representing the 'charge' or 'stopping' shot ).

So, the moral of the story is:
...the .45-70 isn't a Dangerous Game Rifle cartridge, according to the 'rules'.
It simply doesn't have the muscle out of the muzzle.

I'm getting a better understanding of 'WHY'.

I see from the Garrett box picture that the load does indeed come up about 500fps short ( lacks the cubic inches ) for the FPE requirement.

Note that my analogy wasn't really 'flawed' as I compared the small block as the .45-70 and the big block as the .458+.
The 'apples and oranges' comparison is easier to see, now.
I sure appreciate what you guys have posted here with the pictures and figures to look at.

Another point to consider:

( forgetting about the platform from which the 500 gr 45 cal projectile is launched cause that seems to be a stumbling block for some)

The 1530 fps is at muzzle , your shooting happens at 50 m or 100 m. At 100m you have lost another 200 or more fps and now you are dealing with a 1300 fps projectile.

That is an awful long way off the mark in terms of the recommended minimum velocities and energy levels deemed adequate for the reliable, predicatable and humane killing of large bodied animals under sport hunting conditions.

No comment.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

See, it say's it right there on the box.
Elephant/Rhino/Hippo

HA!HA!
just kidding. I think your answer was right on target.

Terry

You've heard of suicide by Police.
Well this says right there on the box.
Suicide by Elephant, Rhino, Hippo use these

quote:

Originally posted by Berndorf:
I think the whole controversy hinges on the comparison of an excellent "lever Action Round" and a very good "DG Round". We are talking apples and oranges here. The 45-70 is wonderful for use in a fast handling lever gun and has proven itself time and again.
But that it seems is not enough for some people, they want to move it up a class into the league of Dangerous Game rounds. This is just madness.

It's unfair to the fine 45-70 and it's insulting to the list of true DG rounds.
Oh the difference a few hundred feet per second make!

>>>>>>>>>>>>.Absolutely!<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I continue to be amazed at the passion shown by 45-70 owners (or at least supporters) of this caliber. I know two people who "promote" and "defend" this caliber with a dedication usually reserved for really "important" matters. I believe that the 45-70 is an adequate deer rifle for short range shooting and may even be adequate for small black bear under similar circunstances. However, it must be recognized that there are many calibers that will fulfill this same mission. I believe that 45-70 supporters exceed the passion shown by even the detractors of the 458 Winchester Magnum, which is saying quite a bit. (But that is another posting....)

quote:

No comment.

lmao

NOOOOO! Please not again!!! Please no more 45-70 vs. real DGR calibers!

Just to set the record straight, The analogy to drag cars needs a bit more explanation. First hand, you can make more horsepower and Torque from a 200 CI engine than a 500 CI engine. All you need is money ( generally lots of it).A turbocharger or Supercharger or NO2 system will easily make crazy power. I've seen and raced such cars Making about 1000 hp and 900ft-lbs of Torque and assuming the power goes to the ground they will OWN a 522 CI NA 500 Hp/500ft-lb Viper (mine) period. now these cars are typically running 20-30lbs of boost with fuel systems adding enormous amounts of race gas to keep the F/A ratio in a safe place. Now you can do the same with a 522 Viper with 6 lbs boost and match that power level ( with much more reliability and if you go 12lbs of boost make 1500-2000 hp.( guess what mine makes now?)
Now the rest of the car must be able to withstand the new power reliably. Most cars designed for 200-300hp will break nearly everything in short order. Not so the Viper although it too has its limits( at 1500 hp lots of stuff breaks constantly). Moreover, like a hot rodded Marlin guide gun, it becomes a thing to FEAR not really enjoy!
Point is you can with the proper technology make a giant killer. Now lets take the .45-70. I know exactly how to get it to push a 500gr bullet to 2150 fps. Simply use a bore rider bullet ( 1/4 inch driving band), three groove ,long throat barrel( so you can seat the bullet way out for more case capacity) and a highly compressed charge of the right powder. Pressures, 48-55 KPSI. It can be done and it will duplicate the same velocity and muzzel energy as the original.458 win mag. It will kill an ele or buff as well as a .458 win mag. Now the question is what gun will be needed to withstand that power level. NO std LEVER GUN should be trusted to hold the pressures required. Kaboom or frame stretch in short order. Maybe a BLR could be converted but thats it and again the cost would be excessive.! Double Rifle? Some could hold the pressures but would be prohibitively expensive and they are available already in much better calibers. It probably can be done in a Ruger No.1, but thats already chambered in .458 win mag/Lott so why bother, and it's a single shot, thus you loose the fast repeat shot so loved by the lever action fans!. Bolt actions? A Siamese mauser is about the only one that will work with a Rimmed Cartridge, but feeding is totally unreliable in 45/70 and this action is rated at 45KPSI max. Bottom line, is you can basically do it, but why bother, because in the end, there are other much better platforms available. In the case of guns at least there isn't any real significant monetary incentive. In the case of fast cars there is a major monetary incentive,however, no one who has built a 1000hp Supra would not have rather started with a Viper if he could have afforded it in the first place. Even if the Supra beats the Viper, the Supra guy still gets to drive home in a Supra! Now some guys just want the challenge and I can certainly appreciate that view. However, lets just be honest and recognize it for what it is. The 45-70 is a neat cartridge and trying to make something else out of it is a waste of time, money and effort.-Rob

I can make a 45.70 work for DG at 458 Lott velocities also..........once.


Just use Bullseye instead of rifle powder.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

See, it say's it right there on the box.
Elephant/Rhino/Hippo

HA!HA!
just kidding. I think your answer was right on target.

Terry

I think its a typo on the box...Squirels, Prarie Dogs, Groundhogs

Mike

Someone, I guess me, should point out that the rules weren't written to exclude the 45/70, only to include the rounds that have been proven to work and to exclude those that haven't worked and rounds of a similar nature.

The venerable 450 Express is excluded because it wasn't a reliable DG round. The 45/70 is in the same legue. No conspiracy to keep the 45/70 down!

The rules are not arbitrary or a case of pin the tail on the donkey.

JPK

As Will Rogers said "...all's I know is what I read in the papers...". A neighbor, Brian Pearce the gunwriter, went to Africa with his Marlin 1895 45-70 and shot Buffalo with no problems; except he shot thru a bull and killed a cow standing behind him. Oops! Buy one more tag.
2nd option, rechamber for 45-90?

regards,

Rich

No one said it can't be done, only that it can't be done reliably. Same with a 450 Express, which again is in the same legue, that is why neither is legal where buff are free range.

JPK

PS, a guy recently killed an elephant with a 45/70 and Garrett's 500gr Speer Tungsten cored solid. Just another stunt on a not likely free range elephant.

Oh yeah, almost forgot. MY puny 45-70 Sharps, being born and raised in Montana; cannot read or write. So, I just loaded a 500gr hard-cast lead RFN about 1500fps and one-shot killed a 1400lb bison bull at 147yds (went down, got up, staggered 30 feet to a wallow...dead 10 seconds later). Next Christmas, same scenario; 2100lb bull 217yds. One shot, went down, never regained his feet. Dead in 15 seconds. I need to keep that Sharps away from the computer. Not being cross or anything, but I'd take it to Africa and shoot buff; there will be my trusty wife holding my squeaky-new 550 Magnum right behind me if anything goes wrong.
JMHO
regards,

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Oh yeah, almost forgot. MY puny 45-70 Sharps, being born and raised in Montana; cannot read or write. So, I just loaded a 500gr hard-cast lead RFN about 1500fps and one-shot killed a 1400lb bison bull at 147yds (went down, got up, staggered 30 feet to a wallow...dead 10 seconds later). Next Christmas, same scenario; 2100lb bull 217yds. One shot, went down, never regained his feet. Dead in 15 seconds. I need to keep that Sharps away from the computer. Not being cross or anything, but I'd take it to Africa and shoot buff; there will be my trusty wife holding my squeaky-new 550 Magnum right behind me if anything goes wrong.
JMHO
regards,

Rich

The only people who equate a ranch bison to a wild Cape buffalo bull are people who haven't hunted both.

George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
The only people who equate a ranch bison to a wild Cape buffalo bull are people who haven't hunted both.

George

That's a bit of an under statement. But how right you are.

Greg

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Oh yeah, almost forgot. MY puny 45-70 Sharps, being born and raised in Montana; cannot read or write. So, I just loaded a 500gr hard-cast lead RFN about 1500fps and one-shot killed a 1400lb bison bull at 147yds (went down, got up, staggered 30 feet to a wallow...dead 10 seconds later). Next Christmas, same scenario; 2100lb bull 217yds. One shot, went down, never regained his feet. Dead in 15 seconds. I need to keep that Sharps away from the computer. Not being cross or anything, but I'd take it to Africa and shoot buff; there will be my trusty wife holding my squeaky-new 550 Magnum right behind me if anything goes wrong.
JMHO
regards,

Rich

Idaho, how many Cape Buffalo did you see while hunting your bison? I've shot all three, Cape Buffalo ,the Bison, and asian Water Buffalo, and the Bison dosn't compare well to the cape Buffalo,or the water buffalo, in tenacity of life, in my experience!

I have nothing against the 45-70, as I own several of them in different rifle types from single shots,to lever, to double rifles. I love the old soldier, but it is what it is, and all the "look at me" talk in the world will not change that! It "IS" a nice woods cartridge for North America, and it is "NOT" a dangerous game cartridge for Africa!

So let me get this straight. Rail cars kill elephants faster than small block chevy's ?
And 45-70 bullets bounce off at ten yards but 458 Lott bullets kill well out past 200 yards?
I think my brain is full and I better go hunting.

Phil,

I noticed when I asked you if you've ever used a .45-70 to kill a brown bear your answer was no.

Have you ever one used to kill any African DG and if not why?

So quick question for you guys. There was some talk about how the 45-70 Might be a decent round if one hot-rodded it enought. But isnt that what a 45-90 or 45-110 is? So would that mean those rounds, the 45-90 or 45-100, would be an exceptable DG round?

Ignoring the fact that neither of those rounds are found easly or cheaply. Probly need a custom chambered rifle. And makeing a DG rifle in either caliber would make getting a 45 Lott seem cheap. so ignoring that it wouldn't be remotely practical would it work?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
303 British - Originally designed as a military cartridge (people shooter), when pushing a 215 grain solid at 2050 fps, it proved to have sufficient penetration to be a serviceable elephant round. However, I would prefer to use something larger.

You kind of brought up a point that I have thought about every time I read a 45-70 thread. Now correct me if I am wrong. Wasn't the 45-70 developed as a "people killer" too. I mean wasn't it a military round first. And wasn't it ultimatly replaced with the .223? Granted there were others in between but I think that is what we still arm our fighting boys with. Well I'll let you decide where I am going with this.

yes the 45/70 was indeed born as a people killer, and was used successfully in the model 1873 "trapdoor" springfield rifles. it was replaced by i believe the 30-40 krag (30 army), then 30-03, 30-06, 7.62 x 51 nato, then the .223 .
the 45/70 is a fine cartridge, and if anyone thinks or wants to use it on dangerous african game, more power to them! the 45/100 or 45/110 is now a custom gun, thinking about looking into getting one made

anyway, whoever opened this old 45/70 african dgr cartridge debate is truly a .........

I caught a few minutes of the Myth Busters TV show the other night. They were testing penetration of bullets in water. To prove or disprove being under water would protect you from being shot. They were firing a 50bmg into the water using armor peircing ammo. The bullet did not even make it to the gelatin they had submerged.The shell cam apart and fell to the bottom of the pool they were using to test. They said they had better penetration results with slower moving bullets. No I don't know what caliber (I came in at the very end ). I have no idea if it is relevant to this conversation. but Garrett claims slower moving bullets penetrate further than faster ones. If they say it on TV too , it has to be true . They wouldn't lie on TV , would they ?

Food for thought .. but no comment.


By Marshall Stanton

Pile Driver





You folks do know that some of use have 26 and 28 inch barreled 45/70's in number ones
and in other lever actions besides marlin and winchester

quote:

Originally posted by PA Bullets:
Food for thought .. but no comment.


By Marshall Stanton

Pile Driver

Welcome!!

I think that lead bullets with a big flat nose would be great fun out of a Ruger no. 3.

This would be a great Elk load out of a Ruger Number One.. At somewhere between 50 and one hundred yards..

It would be a great DGR Load
DGR= Dangerous Giant Rat Rifle. ..

All kidding aside its not a bad round to load up


500grains .. hi my kid had to show me how to set up the new account gezzz...

I dont know, those Rodents of Unusal Size are pretty tough. Might need something a little bigger. 600 0k might do it.

surestrike, I have not killed a bear with my 45-70 even though I carry one a lot during the summer while guiding fishermen. (I also carried it while guiding Dave Scovill on his brown bear hunt but had faith in his 405 and our ability to get in close.) Anyway the reason I havn't shot any bears is that I try not to unless I am hunting them and then I carry my 458 Win for probably the same reason many folks on this forum pick thier 458 Lotts. It just seems to offer a little more steam and I have faith in it. The fact that I carry it means I have no doubt that it will do the job.

quote:

... Garrett claims slower moving bullets penetrate further than faster ones. If they say it on TV too , it has to be true . They wouldn't lie on TV , would they ?

sure they do, and then they don't

In wet news print...
a .44 mag w/ 320 hard cast at 1000FPS will out penatrate a .308 NATO FMJ, I've done this several times just to tweek my buddies noses.

On a 1/4" (10mm) steel plate the hard cast just goes to peieces, while the .308 passes thru.

An arrow at 200fps will penatate the far side of a bucket of sand while a .30-30 will not.

Put them on an 1/8" steel plate and the .30-30 zips right thru. The arrow is toothpicks.

Sometimes slow and heavy works fine, but it depend on the medium.