I was kicking around the idea of doing a 450 Mag in a Remington 700. It just seems like a fun project and has anyone already done this. If so was the out come good or should I just buy another marlin. I like the idea of a box mag and being able to shoot pointed bullets. I would use a 22-24 in. S/S barrel and maybe a brake. Ideas anyone.Thanks

Hoeram

I'm making one on a Ruger receiver, chambered in 450 Marlin. The rifle was originally barreled in 350 Rem Mag, so the bolt face and magazine, follower, etc. are already workable with the 450 cartridge. My gunsmith is going to have to do a little work on the feeding, but it should not be much.

I just prefer the Ruger, but the Remington should work ok, if the bolt face is correct.

I already have the pre-fitted barrel from Pac Nor. It's a 20" twist rate, and 20" long. I want a short carbine. I have no plans for a muzzel break. This is the busy season for my gunsmith, so most likely it will be next season befor it is all together.

Good luck on your project.

KB

which cartridge? 450 mag?

if you mean the 450 marlin, that is nothing but changed belt on the 458 2" or 458 american... though the american was loaded hotter..

its a great idea, and has been done for 50 years.
jeffe

I have seen only one of the 458 x 2" rifles, on a Remington action - not a 700, but the one originally barreled in the 6.5 Rem Mag or the 350 Rem Mag. That was over 20 years ago. I think this wildcat was not very popular, but in my opinion it should have been the better choice over trying to make the 45-70 work properly in a bolt action - any bolt action.

With factory ammo available for the 450 Marlin, there is no need for the 458 x 2", so it can be declared a dead wildcat. Surely the handloaded 458 x 2" was loaded hotter than the factory 450 ammo, but shooting through a Marlin action wasn't an issue with the 458 x 2". Likewise, for use in a modern bolt action, I am sure the 450 can be loaded hotter than the Marlin action can withstand. The brass is tough enough, but such loads should not be in the same household, truck, boat or anywhere near a lever action Marlin.

Given the popularity of the 45-70, especially in the Marlin lever action, I can see the usefulness of the 450 in a bolt action carbine. I have never been a fan of a lever gun, and just studying the mechanism of the Marlin makes me cringe. Rear lockup, and many complicated parts. I know that others think it is slick, and has worked fine for them for umpteen years, but I just don't care for it. I like the 45-70 and it's belted twin the 450 Marlin cartridge. I also like the idea of shooting a .45 caliber bullet at moderate speed. The 458 Win Mag loaded down a bit would serve this purpose as well.

In my bolt action, I am going to try some of the North Fork 400 gr bullets. I'm hoping for close to 2000 fps. But the Buffalo Bore ammo looks pretty good too, and should be enough.

Years ago, I started, then abandoned a project making a 45-70 on a Siamese Mauser action. I saw rather quickly that it was wasting my money, and was never going to work out satisfactorily - since I could never trust it to feed properly every time. Now I hope the new project with the Ruger action in 450 Marlin will satisfy my 45-70 craving, and be a reliable bush whacking carbine for South East Alaska.

Of course, two other excellent choices are the 416 Taylor, and the 458 Win Mag., but recoil is already an issue with such a light weight rifle as I am making. Also, in my case I had the short magnum action, and wanted to do something intresting with it. (WSM or RSM - not) I figured I might as well build a short, handy thumper to use when berry picking, hiking or trout fishing on Brown Bear Island. I also think it will be great for moose. I also have a Ruger 480, but like the lever actions, I don't trust pistols, no matter how big. I think they are an exercise in wishful thinking, and give false confidence. If you saw some of the bears I have seen, regularly, understanding would be easy. No pistol, that I could shoot, could possibly produce the thump of a 400 gr .458 bullet at 2000 fps. I don't have any plans for a brown bear hunt, so if I shoot one, it will be because other options have suddenly vanished. So, I would rather the first shot be effective, and not have to count on follow up shots. However, knowing they are there, in the magazine, is not false confidence. Knowing the second round, etc., will feed properly every time, without my having to take my focus off the target, is as much of a confidence maker as I can think of, once past the steadiness of making the first shot count.

KB

I have a friend who had a 450 marlin made on a model 7 rem..Sweet rifle and it will knock down what ever it hits...

Mike

I'll give you fiddy-dollah for that junker Siamese Mauser action. Sight unseen.

Rich

the 458 marlin (please notice, the name is 450 marlin, not magnum) is loaded to 43,500PSI. The 458 WINmag is a 62,360psi round. The 458 american, or 458x2" is load to the same.

the 458x2 is fairly popular in texas, i've shot 4 or so, seen a couple more, and barreled on nearly everything that could take it. Surprised it's not mre common in alaska. it's an easy converstion to anything in 7remmag

difference is
458 american, 22" barrel, hornady 350, at 62,300
~2380fps

450 marlin 43,500
~2200 FPS, same otherwise.

That it's popular or not doesn't change what it actually is.

Yes, a marlin case is actually 1 gr more capacity (74vs 73) than the 458 american, but is loaded to 2/3 the pressure.

Yes, you can jack the pressure up.. just like you can in a 45/70, and go faster. but it's not the same round, in it's spec trim, as a 458 american. it's nearly 200fps slower, factory loaded than the same 458x2" that you can buy from superior ammo.

jeffe

jeffe

Yes, we go on about the 450 Marlin, yet the origin of this thread may have been about the 458 WinMag. The "450 Mag" initially mentioned could have been a typo mistake.

The 458 X 2" may be more popular in Alaska than I am aware of. I just don't see them in the field, and I don't know anyone who shoots one.

I got rid of the Siamese action long time ago, and never looked back.

I never thought about using a regular size magnum action for the 458 x 2". I've only heard of it on some short action magnum receiver. I suppose it would work out OK, especially if the rear of the magazine was blocked off a little. In an action that would handle 2.5" brass, I would just go with a 458 Win Magnum or 416 Taylor, and load mild handloads.

I wasn't aware of the PSI data for the 458 American. That's interesting. I figured that the 450 Marlin brass could stand the same pressure as any magnum brass. It's the lever action that's the limiting factor, not the brass. So, it's good to know that we have some nice mild factory loads, and just for the heck of it, or if really needed, I can handload some stiff magnum rounds to shoot in my Ruger. That might be tricky, since no manual will give such data, and it may be difficult to get that much powder in the brass anyway, and seat the bullet. I already know that I will be dealing with relatively fast powder anyway, and that's specifically why I thing the short barrel will be efficient. I may have to do some research to find some of those magnum loads for the 458 x 2", then compare them to the load manuals for the 450 Marlin. If they look reasonable, and aren't too compressed at the 450 Marlin pressure levels, then maybe I can work up something safely. Any suggestions would be welcome. It looks like IMR4198 or H4198 might be the powder to start with since it is the only powder not already compressed at max loads (42,600 PSI) in the Hodgden or IMR data.

Now that I wrote that, I look at the data from Speer on the Web, for their 400 gr bullet, and see AA 2230, Reloader 7, IMR 4198, and Viht. N120 all are not compressed at max loads for the 43,500 psi level. The search for a magnum psi load could be easier than I thought. I suspect that a cronograph may be an essential tool for this load development, if just to assure myself that there is payoff for the increased blast. If I can get 2000 fps with a 400 gr bullet, out of the 20" barrel - I'll call it good. Anything more, I'll consider a bonus. I have worked up loads before, 1/2 grain at a time, and know the signs of when to stop and back off - using a bolt action, so I feel pretty comfortable about this. It's done frequently with the 45-70 - from 28.000 SAAMI loads all the way up to 50,000+ psi loads for the Ruger #1.

Actually, my plans for this rifle are to mess around with some mild cast bullet loads, all the way up to anything the 458 x 2" could produce, and many other loads in between. Even if I didn't plan to use handloads, the Hornady factory loads will do about anything I want to do, and I plan to keep a good supply of Buffalo Bore loads on hand too. I hope this new toy will keep me busy in the little spare time I have for my favorite hobby, and hold my interest for several years.

Best Regards,
KB

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I'll give you fiddy-dollah for that junker Siamese Mauser action. Sight unseen.

Rich

Junk - or beauty - is in the eyes of the beholder. The Siam action was a sow's ear to me, and I got rid of it long ago to the first person who showed any interest, and I never regretted its departure.

KB

Kabluewy,
Yep.. the 450 mag mentioned could have been a typo ... and the 450 marlin, as loaded, is lower pressure than the american, do to the inherent risk of it being in the lever gun..

and putting it in a bolt gun could be a hoot....
and if you are using north forks, the 2" cases are PERFECT in a 3.35" boltgun... you can sit them out very far and crimp anywhere you like, effectivly increasing case capacity, without having to buy a longer action
and here's my original post on the matter

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
which cartridge? 450 mag?

if you mean the 450 marlin, that is nothing but changed belt on the 458 2" or 458 american... though the american was loaded hotter..

its a great idea, and has been done for 50 years.
jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Kabluewy,
Yep .. and the 450 marlin, as loaded, is lower pressure than the american, do to the inherent risk of it being in the lever gun..

putting it in a bolt gun could be a hoot....
and if you are using north forks, the 2" cases are PERFECT in a 3.35" boltgun... you can sit them out very far and crimp anywhere you like, effectivly increasing case capacity, without having to buy a longer action

jeffe

Jeffe,
The factory Hornady 450 Marlin 350 gr ammo has room to spare in the Ruger short magnum action I have. (magazine length about 2.8") I'm thinking maybe I will be able to use some of the extra length to seat the pointed bullets out somewhat, depending on the length of the chamber throat. Mostly though, I'm happy that the magazine isn't so short to be cramped for space, and I think there will be plenty of room for the longer pointed bullets, seated normally.

I suspect that seating the bullet further out, to utilize the 3.35" magazine, would require a special non-SAAMI throat, and that's something I would do a double take on before asking the gunsmith to make it so. I think a standard length throat is more suitable, since I'll be using factory ammo as well as handloads. After all, if 458 Win Mag velocity is what I was after, the 450 Marlin would not have been the first choice. I have another Ruger in 300 WM, which would be a good donar action for a 458 WM or 416 Taylor, but I wanted to utilize the shorter action, specifically built around the shorter 450 Marlin cartridge. Besides, I am saving the standard magnum receiver just in case I can't resist doing something with the new 375 Ruger, or some wildcat derivitive (maybe 411, 416, or 423 Ruger).

I think I'm going to have enough rifle for my needs with a standard SAAMI 450 Marlin chamber and throat. However, my plan is to intentionally exceed the SAAMI chamber pressure of 43,500 psi, since the brass is capable of handling magnum pressure, and the Ruger action is strong enough as well. This Ruger Receiver was originally barreled in 350 Rem Mag, which I believe runs around 55,000 psi. Some of the snort mags have higher pressure, over 63,000 psi, using the same action.

Regards,
KB

Doesn't Charlie Sisk chamber the 450 Marlin in bolt actions?

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:
Doesn't Charlie Sisk chamber the 450 Marlin in bolt actions?

It's a possibility, but as I remember, Mr. Sisk is Texan.

I think it was Clark's Custom shop that did a few, but don't anymore.

Any good smith can install a Pac Nor pre-fit, and The folks at Montana Rifle will do one on their '99 action, if & when they are available again.

KB

I've yet to come across a 458 American up here, I'm there are a few, but I don't know how popular the concept really is in a bolt gun. The Marlin 1895's are very popular in 45-70, 450 Marlin and a smattering of wildcats.

As far as why it isn't more popular, I'm thinking a combination of one being able to buy a 458 win mag for less than building a 458X2", and the win mag performance level being more popular in bolt guns. Ie, if you want the accuracy advantage of the bolt gun over lever, might as well have the velocity advantage for longer ranges.

Personally I think the 350 rem mag is much more useful in broad use in a light weight bolt gun, and if we're talking up close and nasty, I want a 458 win mag or more

Yes Paul, I think the 450 Marlin already is more popular in a bolt gun than the 458 x 2" ever was, and 450 bolt guns are scarce. The Marlin 1895s are very well liked in AK, so I don't see why a similarly short and handy bolt gun would not be of the same service, or better for those who don't really care for the lever.

It's not just the potential improvment in accuracy that is the issue. At close ranges, the difference in accuracy between the lever and the bolt action probably will not matter much, however I do believe that I can shoot a bolt gun more accurately than a lever, just from familiarity, but I admit that I have never tested that notion. The lever rifles just don't feel right in my hands.

Yes, a friend loaned me his 458 for a couple of years, and it was the most comforting rifle to carry when bush whacking in SE Alaska. I had to give it back this summer. It was heavy, and had a 24" barrel, no scope, but carried pretty good. I hope the 450 Ruger can replace it, for it's purpose. I know the 450 Ruger will be lighter and handier, and probably all the recoil I want to endure, but I know the old saying that I won't notice recoil if I have to use it in an emergency. It's all that practice time that I'm concerned about.

The same argument can be made comparing the 458 WM to the 45-70 or 450 in the Marlin 1895. Why not just get a 458? Well, unless you are talking about something custom, rifles in 458 WM are generally much heavier and longer than the 1895. Even in a custom built 458, intentionally made (or modified) light , short, and handy, the recoil with factory ammo in such a rifle will be noticably more than hot Buffalo Bores in the 1895, even considering the generally better stock on bolt guns. But, I admit shooting such a 458 light weight rifle owned by a friend, and it was suprisingly tolerable, and balanced, but we weren't shooting the 500 gr., but instead I think we were blasting with the Federal 400 gr factory stuff that day. The 500 grainers are probably over my tolerance level in that light 458. To me, the usefulness of a standard weight 458 would be very limited, because I wouldn't enjoy carrying it around. And, in a lighter rifle, I would stick with 400 grainers anyway, probably loaded 2100 to 2200 fps.

I'm not a big fan of the 350 Rem Mag, but it's mostly because I have a Mauser '98 with a short barrel in 35 Whelan, and it holds four in the magazine, and has a 14" twist rather than the 16" twist. The Whelan is all the 35 caliber rifle I need. In my book the 350 RM and the 35 Whelan are twins in performance, so it's just preference. So for me the 450 has a broader use than the 350RM, doing anything I would do with the 350, and more.

There is a factory bolt action rifle available in .450 Marlin...

...the Steyr Mannlicher Prohunter is available in .450 Marlin!

quote:

Originally posted by BwanaBob:
...the Steyr Mannlicher Prohunter is available in .450 Marlin!

I had heard this before, but was not able to confirm it.

Today, I did a little more research and found the contact number for Steyr Mannlicher USA, Inc. 1-662-492-8924. I spoke with Mr Jack Riddle, and he confirmed the news. It's not available just yet, but in about two months he said. Stainless with camo stock, and sights, 22" bbl, 15" twist. The suggested price will be $1280 - $1485.

Steyr will also be making that same rifle in 338 Federal.

WOW

Regards,
KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by BwanaBob:
...the Steyr Mannlicher Prohunter is available in .450 Marlin!

I had heard this before, but was not able to confirm it.

Today, I did a little more research and found the contact number for Steyr Mannlicher USA, Inc. 1-662-492-8924. I spoke with Mr Jack Riddle, and he confirmed the news. It's not available just yet, but in about two months he said. Stainless with camo stock, and sights, 22" bbl, 15" twist. The suggested price will be $1280 - $1485.

Steyr will also be making that same rifle in 338 Federal.

WOW

Regards,
KB

here is a link to for that rifle:

http://www.granitearms.com/Mannlicher-Prohunter.htm

"Mannlicher Prohunter Bigbore" "Only bolt action rifle in .450 Marlin, barrel length 550mm, available with glassfibre reinforced stock in black or camo."

I wasn't very clear about what it was I was asking about.I was asking about doing the 450 Marlin in a 700 Rem. action .I like the round and I already have all the stuff to load for it and I'm a big 700 Rem. fan. I had a 450 marlin guide gun and sold it to my brother, so I would like to replace it, but in a 700 Rem. action as I like the bolt action better than the lever. Thanks for all the input it is great info.

Hoeram

I have seen only one to date and it was on a custom shop Winchester 70 and it was BEAUTIFUL, of all the places it could have been it was at Bass Pro Shops in Dania, Fl. price was $4999.99. It had a jeweled bolt and extractor, Jeweled follower shodow cut cheek piece, rich walnut stock and express sights. That rifle shouldered like it was part of you.

Craven