Is a forward recoil lug needed for a 458 Lott. I am building one on a BRNO 602 and am trying to decide if it is really needed. The stock will have two crossbolts and bedded. I have never bothered on my 375's or 416 Rigby.

The SIGarms' Mauser Banner 450 Dakota I have was built with no secondary recoil lug on the barrel. Walnut stock.
Integral rear sight base, but no barrel lug on the underside of the barrel:







The barrel is a slim one, overall similar to the average No. 4 sporter. about .670" at the muzzle diameter, rifle weighs 9.5 pounds dry.
Factory test target signed by G. Prechtl, not at all ashamed of his action being used.

Dakota Arms was not putting them on their 450 Dakota M76 African rifles either, when I visited them in Sturgis, SD once upon a time.

Good bedding and crossbolts and pillars all glassed solid, tang relief, good to go, according to many makers.

The secondary recoil lug on the barrel might help prevent stock splitting.
It also might mess with accuracy.
I don't order them on mine anymore, no more barrel lugs for me.
I do order grip rods to be hidden and sheet metal magazine box fronts to be reinforced, cross bolts and pillars, my preferences have changed.
I don't order any hardware additions to a barrel anymore.
Slick barrels suit me fine now.

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Have one on my 458win and on my ex 425WR. Will have one installed on my 458LOTT.

My 375 H&H, model 70 Winchester came with one.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
My 375 H&H, model 70 Winchester came with one.

Not needed. I have had plenty of M70s in 375 and 458 and bedded action and fully floated barrel ie. the barrel lug hung in mid air.

Don't forget the M70 recoil lug is twice the size of the Mauser and a lot more stock material behind the lug.

The pre 75 Sakos never had a barrel lug on 375, however, the small Mauser size recoil lug rested against the cross bolt which of course increased the area of the lug. However, the Sako also had a lot more stock material behind the lug than Mausers.

This comes back up regularly. Just look at the number of posts from guys with cracked stocks. Yes you can be one of them! Given the cost of good wood, Inletting and contouring skipping a barrel lug is just plain dumb!Basically I put a barrel mounted recoil lug on anything with more recoil than a 458win mag. Therefore, a big yes on your Lott! Will your stock crack without one. Yes eventually. Trust me in that I know how to properly bed big bores and you can either listen or find out on your own! As to effecting accuracy, come on, your going to be shooting at 75 yards max at dangerous game. If you can keep All your shots on a pie plate at that range your more than good to go. -Rob

All of my 602's have had a second recoil lug fitred after purchase, my 550's come with it standard.
I would NOT trust the stock to survive without one. Also, if your glass bedding this rifle, DO NOT bed behind the tang, there MUST be room in this area, trust me, I know from having a $3, 500 stock crack through the wrist after 2 shots. This occurred on a rifle with 2 lugs.

Cheers.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
As to effecting accuracy, come on, your going to be shooting at 75 yards max at dangerous game. If you can keep All your shots on a pie plate at that range your more than good to go. -Rob

Absolutely! Perhaps even comfortably up to 100 meters but who cares.
Free floating a big bore might be good for rifle being used at the range but ridicules for a hunting big bore rifle.

Adding a barrel lug is simple, given the availability of the Recknagel ring bases for express sights with integral recoil lug sold by New England Custom Gun Service. They are inexpensive and come in practically every conceivable barrel size. I just ordered one for my .425 Westley Richards now being assembled.

While any big bore should be accurate at 100 meters or more. Who cares? You use these guns up close and personal for maximum effect. They are not range queens and a properly bedded front recoil lug does nothing detrimental to that level of accuracy. What it does is stop the tang on the gun from becoming a very effective wood splitter and no glass bedding alone will only prolong the inevitable.

Absolutly, a 458 Lott generates a bucket full of recoil and has ripped many a factory and custom rifles...You need two recoil lugs on the 375 H&H and up in my opinion..Ive seen more than a few big bores come out of the wood in my lifetime..

A big bore should have recoil lugs,The one that is on the action and one on the barrel four inches from the front ring It should have two cross bolts in the stock, and a third at the grip won't hurt a thing but its optional, and regardless of how well its made it sure doesn't hurt a thing to have it totally glass bedded! How many times have I heard glass isn't necessary and sometimes its not, but I have seen some high dollar custom guns by well known stock makers split out, and they were the ones that yelled the loudest..To each his own, just my opine. A Safari cost big bucks and one does not need bumps in the road if they can be prevented.

I also have the screws tapered to come real tight the last couple of twists..

Bottom line? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure..I have seen too many custom and factory big bores come out of the stocks on Safari..

yes, do one .. odds are in your fair to save your stock

Darn, I am going to have to send the 450 Dakota Magnum Mauser back to Mr. Prechtl in Germany. What was he thinking!

And all those Sturgis-made M76 Dakota rifles out there of greater recoil than .375 H&H will need to go back to South Dakota.

Surely warranty should cover such a design flaw.
And all those Ruger RSM rifles that have only one recoil lug on them, a cantilevered recoil plate in the fore-end ... well, no wonder they quit making them!

I do not really care much for walnut anymore, just synthetics with full bedding blocks for me, and no recoil lugs on the barrel.
Big bores can put three shots into less than 0.2" at 100 yards,
I have done it or seen it done by other riflecranks, .375 Wby to 577 Trex.
So can a Ruger RSM with only one recoil lug, as from the factory line, now defunct, with walnut stock and a fat barrel.

But even I would want a secondary recoil lug on the barrel if I paid $3500 for the walnut stock alone, on a 458 Lott.
I would want a steel rod hidden through the grip, too, even if the grain flow is perfect.

Big bore benchrest shooting:

It is just a form of riflecrank foolery, agreed, fun and games.

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Recoil lugs, cross bolts, muzzle brakes, checkerin'. It's all gadgetree of the modern (or post modern) age. Little bitty old dudes with really big guns didn't have any of that stuff back in the day, and they killed bazillions of beasties for a livin'.

i Hear you, Ron -- recall that CZ (and BRNO) used to sell the 602/550magnum without crossbolted stocks... and now they do ... I've had a 602 come apart in my hands, and it had under 20 rounds through it... ever (first box of shells, etc)...

and now they do .. they got tired of replacing stocks ...

It seems to me that many have not shot their big bores enough to learn their inside and outs.
For one thing you have to start off with good wood but rarely IMO does a stock crack because of the wood.Any movement of the action in the stock will crack a stock.What will prevent a stock from cracking is how you tighten the guard screws especially the front one.This screw needs to be tightened down at a high torque and then locked with red loctite or even better the black one.When Ruger was having issues with cracked stocks on their big bores they instructed owners to use a very big torque wrench and tighten down at a very high torque.
Also tightening down and locking will prevent shifts in POI.The recoil of a 458 Lott will loosen every screw on the rifle including sight screws.

With some of the poor quality of walnut being used on factory rifles, it matters not how tight you do up the screws and use lock tight. When the timber moves the lock tight will be locked on loose screws.

I think Wby has the best system as used on the 378, 416 and 460.

The barrel recoil lug is attached to the Know form of the barrel, about and inch or inch and a quarter down from the action lug. The action (and that second lug) is bedded normally and barrel free floated.

I have no experience with recent M70s but previously their attachment of the lug under the open sight often fucked up the barrel because of stress. Not in my opinion the ideal place to heat a barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael McGuire:
I think Wby has the best system as used on the 378, 416 and 460.

The barrel recoil lug is attached to the Know form of the barrel, about and inch or inch and a quarter down from the action lug. The action (and that second lug) is bedded normally and barrel free floated.

I have no experience with recent M70s but previously their attachment of the lug under the open sight often fucked up the barrel because of stress. Not in my opinion the ideal place to heat a barrel.

I am glad I chose to go with a fully integral barrel on my Satterlee/Ralf Martini Lott that is due soon.I want to stay away from any barrel heat possible on any of my guns.
Also will request just like on my first Martini Lott that all it's screws are tightened so that they can never loosen.I will request this if I ever order another double also.

To have an echon screw to meet the barrel ala the old Winchesters is a good prevention tool..

Rip
Your post surprises me, all the makers you mention have had stock problems, especially Ruger..but to each his own, Like Rob said, learn the hard way...I won't argue the point, just take exception to it.

quote:

poor quality of walnut

Primary reason for cracking.

Thanks for the input. I'm going to get my milling machine going and make a forward lug, The stock is a nice dense quarter sawn piece of Turkish walnut I picked for the grain more than looks. I have already pinned the wrist and put two crossbolts in.

I make mine from a 1/2x 1/2x 1 inch piece of 4140 that's cut with a fly cutter to exactly match the barrel diameter. They are D&t'd and silver soldered to the barrel. Countersinked screws are added finally and to aid in the lug alignment during the silver soldering process.
This is really cheap insurance against a very expensive and time consuming stock replacement. With all the knowledge we now have about how to build big bores that work and last, I can't understand why this isn't just routine and frankly not worth further discussion.

Ok, on the Ruger mags, better check the design; they actually have no receiver recoil lug; the entire recoil is taken by a lug half way up the fore end, and the receiver is hooked onto that. Having a lug up on the barrel effectively takes all the force off the thin, weak, part of the stock.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

Rip
Your post surprises me, all the makers you mention have had stock problems, especially Ruger..but to each his own, Like Rob said, learn the hard way...I won't argue the point, just take exception to it.

Ray,
Sometimes I like to play the devil's advocate just to get you stirred up enough to post something.
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, I am pissed at Mauser for not putting a secondary recoil lug on the barrel of my 450 Dakota.
Yes, I am pissed at Dakota for not putting secondary lugs on the barrels of all their big bores.
Yes, I do think it was silly of Ruger to have only one recoil lug on the RSM, and it is a detachable one at that!

But yes, I want nothing more to do with walnut stocks and barrel lugs.
Only composite stocks with bedding blocks and slick barrels for me, if I have my druthers.
That is the best recipe for a durable big bore rifle that will put 3 shots into 0.200" at 100 yards.

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For Mauser action fans the 30/378 gives a clue.

When the custom shop does one in wood they put the same sort of lug as used on the 378 and up and like the big ones about an inch down the barrel on the Knox form.

While the Mark V recoil lug is close to twice as deep as the Mauser, like the Mauser the Mark V only has a small amount of stock material behind the recoil lug.

Although a 30/378 has heavy recoil because of the light bullet it does not give the stock the big initial whack from the first couple of inches of bullet movement but Wby still fits the lug.

I know AR is not a lover of Mark Vs but one thing for sure and that is there would be very few, if any, gun companies that sell as many heavy kicking guns and over such a long period.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
[But yes, I want nothing more to do with walnut stocks and barrel lugs.
Only composite stocks with bedding blocks and slick barrels for me, if I have my druthers.
That is the best recipe for a durable big bore rifle that will put 3 shots into 0.200" at 100 yards.

Ray,

This is my old .505 SRE, which I have been shooting since 1969 in that stock. It has a screwed on/soldered on barrel lug. I don't know what kind of a group it will shoot at 100 yards, since it has never had a scope on it, but it has never failed on an elephant, rhino or buffalo.



I have a collection of McMillan composite stocks, all of them on target rifles, but for a hunting rifle, give me walnut any time.

Here are the figures for the .505 SRE:
Bullet weight 570 grains
Bullet velocity 2150 fps.
Powder weight 90 grains
Rifle weight 8.75 pounds
Recoil Impulse 7.44 (lbs.sec)
Recoil Velocity 27.36(fps)
Recoil Energy 101.75 (ft.lbf)

The cartridge is the one in the middle.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:

I don't know what kind of a group it will shoot at 100 yards, since it has never had a scope on it,

I see it has an aperture sight. With a bit of practice and aiming mark on the target drawn to suit the front sight you would be amazed at the groups that can be shot.

I do love the curly maple and figured walnut on my muzzle loaders, BPCR hammer guns, DRs, lever actions, and a few safe queens.
But all of that involves nostalgia, fancifulness, or toy.
No termite food on serious modern firearms please.


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Wby have used that system for a long time. My first 460 was 1971 and was that way.

460s bedded on the tang and the action up that barrel lug shoot like you would not believe. In fact all of them with 115 grains of 4350 and 500 grain Hornadys have been the most consistently accurate big bore I have seen.

The barrelled actions are from the custom shop.

I have both owned and been directly involved with a lot of them and also 378s.

We have shot them with bag of lead shot behind so lots and lots of shots fired and I have never once seen a problem.

And Pre Made in USA 378s had super light barrels (after that they have the same as the 416 and Accumark contour. And heaps of the 460s only had the old Pendleton Dekicker which is about as good as magna porting.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael McGuire:

I see it has an aperture sight. With a bit of practice and aiming mark on the target drawn to suit the front sight you would be amazed at the groups that can be shot.

I am well aware of the capabilities of an aperture sight, since I have shot both high power and small bore prone for around 50 years, but the aiming error with aperture sights in generally conceded to be 1 minute of angle, while the aiming error with a high powered scope is virtually zero. I never heard of anyone shooting a .2" three shot group with aperture sights. My rifle is capable of minute of buffalo, however.

Rip,
Ya gotta remember that with me Nostalgia is the nector of the Gods! Russian walnut, cross bolts, recoil lugs, 404 Jefferys, egg cheekpieces, iron sights, all that wonderful stuff brings joy to my heart., No plastic, no stainless, just pure English/African ala Henry Aiken or todays Ralph Martini,& Jack Haugh...and it must be old!

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael McGuire:

I see it has an aperture sight. With a bit of practice and aiming mark on the target drawn to suit the front sight you would be amazed at the groups that can be shot.

I am well aware of the capabilities of an aperture sight, since I have shot both high power and small bore prone for around 50 years, but the aiming error with aperture sights in generally conceded to be 1 minute of angle, while the aiming error with a high powered scope is virtually zero. I never heard of anyone shooting a .2" three shot group with aperture sights. My rifle is capable of minute of buffalo, however.

I know it is not applicable to your rifle but have you ever used a ring foresight? Of course the grouping capability is not at all an indicator of a target you could hit as you would not even be able to see such a small target.

OK, I am going to have to get a recoil lug soldered onto the barrel of the 450 Dakota.
But it will have to be something better than the block of steel like Weatherby does it.
Just needs to be of the right shape and soldered, not welded, and not turned around 180 degrees like the one on my 500 Mbogo number two:





Here is where it is bedded in the CZ Kevlar/Aramid stock now, bassackward as it is:



Two different gnunsmiths worked on that rifle, its a long story.
The one that put the recoil lug on bassackward was a graduate of the Colorado School of Trades Gunsmithing School. Go figure.
The second gunsmith got to stamp his name on the rifle after he cut the barrel off and rechambered it to get rid of rings in the chamber, and did a feed job.
I did not request that he unsolder the recoil lug and turn it around.
It still gets the job done satisfactorily, and his hidden when in the stock.
Still, is it not the preferrable shape for a recoil lug?
Greater area for solder attachment to the barrel for stronger joint, relative to the adequate recoil surface that should be facing toward the action.
No excess steel weight on the barrel, no excess excavation in the stock.
It is the correct form of the lug to best serve the function.
Just get it oriented correctly!

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Nothing wrong with that Lug. if bedded tight, it has two recoil surfaces. If it does not bear on the small surface, it still does on the large one.

Rip- a true abortion but definitely not the worst ive seen. One of our great gunsmiths charging big bucks likes to tig weld his barrel lugs to the barrel. Hog out a slot with the OK mill, hammer in the lug and crank up the amps on the tig. Not even a good tig weld either. Heck a few bullets down the barrel and most of the inner slag is gone! Sometimes a lil rifling goes with it but it's just part of the invoice!Bed and test fire. If she doesn't blow your good to go!-Rob

Ron,
You have 4 recoil surfaces, now!!

Ron,

You know when bedded how well 460s shoot.

The Wby position is the best and has been proven over many years and rifles.

For consistent peak accuracy the lug down the barrel needs a take down screw.

Now before Ray or similar chime in with shit like "we only need minute of elephant"...there are some gun owners who want to have accuracy to the highest level and the big bangers are a challenge.

Ron,

I know I am the odd man out but.................the position of that recoil lug would be my choice....He did it right.

Everything I've heard says heating the barrel upwards of 1300 degrees is bad for the barrel especially stainless steel used in barrel making and can affect strength and cause scale and other problems that can ruin the barrel. I also know that second recoil lugs are and have been done a lot, so what is the real story on this. Will using a synthetic stock and normal bedding make a second lug and cross bolts unnecessary?
Thank you