quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
It would sound like you prefer to stay with a 500 grain pill but if a non compressed load is what you are looking for would it be worth considering a 450 gr Swift you might load to 2300-2400 FPS or a 450 gr North Fork Soft (A bit longer). A bit less recoil and plenty of punch and a little tougher slug than the Woodleigh.
I have been tinkering with these 450 swifts in a 458 Win mag and like them!

EZ

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Mike, I have shot a few buff, and eland with both the 480 Woodleigh Soft, and the 500 Swift A Frame with my 450 No2.

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Originally posted by srose:
Woodleigh softs are great and Swifts are to. I know from what I saw today with Michael I will never shoot a Woodleigh solid again on game. Yes I have killed buffalo and elephant with them in the past but its a wonder I did. Michael will post all the stuff he and I did today soon.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
MopaneMike,
Every Swift I've shot was in the hide on the off side in a perfect mushroom, doesn't matter what caliber from 25 to 470.

Now if we can just get Swift to make a flat nosed solid!Sam

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Originally posted by Extremist458:
Grand Slam Tungsten Solids Mk2 to come out soon!

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Originally posted by MopaneMike:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Woodleigh softs are great and Swifts are to. I know from what I saw today with Michael I will never shoot a Woodleigh solid again on game. Yes I have killed buffalo and elephant with them in the past but its a wonder I did. Michael will post all the stuff he and I did today soon.

Sam

Sam,
To tell the truth, that's just the reason why I had a little bit of hesitation.. My first trip to Zambia (Kosonso)PH shot a Buff & I followed him up with my Lott/Swift combo. He used a 458Win w/500grn Woodleigh solid. Upon skinning & in the guts we found his solid bent almost in half and on the off side under the hide was my picture perfect Swift

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Originally posted by MopaneMike:

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
Grand Slam Tungsten Solids Mk2 to come out soon!

Dammit!! Another investment strategy down the Crapper...

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Your assurances were welcomed and needed. I feel much better in my bullet choice.. I have so much faith in the Swift A-Frame, it's hard to do a change up..

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Good grief. Shoot 'em right behind the shoulder. Dead buffalo.

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Originally posted by michael458:

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Originally posted by MopaneMike:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Woodleigh softs are great and Swifts are to. I know from what I saw today with Michael I will never shoot a Woodleigh solid again on game. Yes I have killed buffalo and elephant with them in the past but its a wonder I did. Michael will post all the stuff he and I did today soon.

Sam

Sam,
To tell the truth, that's just the reason why I had a little bit of hesitation.. My first trip to Zambia (Kosonso)PH shot a Buff & I followed him up with my Lott/Swift combo. He used a 458Win w/500grn Woodleigh solid. Upon skinning & in the guts we found his solid bent almost in half and on the off side under the hide was my picture perfect Swift

MopaneMike

How about come over and join us on the terminal penetration thread Mike? We have been doing a hell of a lot of work over there with all sorts of bullets, solids being a huge part of the thread, but not everything of course. Would love for you to join us, would love for you to relate the story about the Woodleigh FMJ there too. From some few folks we get continuously hammered that our results with Woodleighs in the test work we have been doing never happen in animal tissue, but we keep hearing your stories over and over again. A really fine fellow just joined in with us and had one bend on elephant veering off course recently too. I would welcome you input over there and I think you will see lot's of other bullets we have been working with that you could gain something out of it!

Thanks
Michael

Free 500grains

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Originally posted by shootaway:
I can't imagine a 500gr,Woodleigh fmj bending.I've recovered at least 30 or 40 from a dirt mound,sometimes wet and rocky and not one was bent.I fired these from both my lott and 458wm.I have also used a sledge hammer on a few Woodleighs and Hornadys and still,I did not see one bend.

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
JPK, you can take GSC out of your last statement. They have a 100% sucess rate with their FN's, and are proud of it. Not seen one GSC FN fail yet, not one. And they are used in Africa much more then you are. Just check out the gallory page.

Free 500grains

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Originally posted by shootaway:
That looks small for a 500gr bullet.

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It always happens when the bullet is too long for a given rate of twist. No rocket science needed to figure that one out.

When the length of an FN is properly matched to the twist rate of the rifle, an FN can always be relied upon to give straight line penetration in any animal medium, more frequently than any other nose shape.

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Originally posted by Gerard:
JPK,
You quote me out of context. I qualified my statement with:

quote:

It always happens when the bullet is too long for a given rate of twist. No rocket science needed to figure that one out.

When the length of an FN is properly matched to the twist rate of the rifle, an FN can always be relied upon to give straight line penetration in any animal medium, more frequently than any other nose shape.

You have mentioned that you have seen an FN veer. Refresh my memory: What were the details of caliber, bullet used and so on?

Free 500grains

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Shootaway

What are you shoing in that picture of a whole load of Woodleigh Bullets lined up ?

I can see One (1) slightly bent bullet (2nd from Left) and one where it looks slightly squashed at the base (5th from Left).

The others look fine - and I ran it through photoshop to see if the sides were straight which they are.

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Originally posted by JPK:
500N,

I have recovered many .458" 500gr Woodleigh solids that traversed only the relatively easy on the bullet soft tissue. They all have the lead tit protruding. I don't believe the extrusion is the result of the bullet striking or traversing game, but rather the result of swaging and engraving to accomodate the lands.

Likewise for the fewer number of 500gr .474" Woodleighs I have recovered, but the vent at the base of the case is larger in diameter, so the protrusion is wider and shorter. So it is not as obvious, and often uniform enough for the bullet to stand on, without obvious leaning.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
JPK,
You quote me out of context. I qualified my statement with:

quote:

It always happens when the bullet is too long for a given rate of twist. No rocket science needed to figure that one out.

When the length of an FN is properly matched to the twist rate of the rifle, an FN can always be relied upon to give straight line penetration in any animal medium, more frequently than any other nose shape.

You have mentioned that you have seen an FN veer. Refresh my memory: What were the details of caliber, bullet used and so on?

Gerard,

I quoted your entire post, including your qualifying sentences, to ensure that I did not quote you out of context. I also quoted the same post previously in the 470 thread, in full, in response to the same individual, and reiterated the twist issue.

Rifle twist rate is a funny thing, if your rifle is already built, and worth a damn, it will be expensive to rebarrel to a tighter twist. So for some existing rifles, like double rifles or custom bolt actions, and for some others because of owner lack of imperitive.

So, in many instances, you must "run what you brung." But truncated cone FN solid bullet choice is also limited. Which makes your qulifications difficult or impossible to meet at times. Which brings up a couple of questions, below:

I haven't done the math, but it would seem that a 500gr 470 bullet would fall outside of your recomended SF range with the CIP 1:21" spec, and out of the range with even the tighter twist of ~1:18" that some rifles apparently feature. Do they not fall outside of your generally recomended range? If so, how do they perform? And why don't you make a lighter version?

I have had one .458", 450gr NF FN shot at ~2220fps out of a barrel with a twist rate of 1:14" veer in target on a frontal brain shot on an elephant. The elephant was brained with the shot, its head was positioned relatively low so that it was looking at me, as it stood on somewhat higher ground, maybe 12" higher. Range was 10y, maybe 15yds. It was tuskless and short and small, as elephant go.

The recovered bullet exhibited a divot on its nose. The divot encompassed something on order of 60* of the nose. The shape of the divot was a relatively sharp and well defined V, with depth approximately equal to width and length. I am writing this from recall, and the elephant was killed in 2006, but I may still have the bullet, if you would like a photo of it. My then seven year old son got into my recovered bullet collection when we moved in 2007 and many are missing, but I think I still have this one.

We followed the wound channel of this bullet from it exit at the rear of the skull to the bullet. It exited the skull at the center, well above the ball joint joining the spine and skull. The bullet appeared to have entrered the brain and then exited the skull after traveling a straight line from POI, which was approximately centered side to side, but I am not 100% certain of the straight line penetration to this point because we didn't cut open the skull, and deviation at through the skull, if any, would have been small. After it exited the brain, it traversed the neck, and in the neck was where we noticed the veering. The rate of deviation from straight line penetration increased as the bullet penetrated. The bullet was discovered in the left shoulder, after about 48" of penetration, iirc. The bullets was found nose front, and there was no evidence of tumbling on the bullet, as well, the wound channel showed no sign of tumbling - and after chasing enough Woodleighs, you learn what tumbling looks like in the wound channel. The bullet showed no sign of being out of round or bent, iirc. I test for out of roundness and bending by rolling on a table. I don't recall testing this bullet, but I am sure that I did, and I think I would recall if it was bent or out of round. But, again, I will check tomorrow if you would like. Over the 48" of travel, the bullet deviated maybe 6", maybe 12" or so, but I don not really recall. That information is contained in a thread on the Hutning Reports board if you would like me to retrieve it.

I have also had one .458", 450gr NF FN at the same ~2220fps and out of the same 1:14" rifle slide on and then deflect off of a bull elephant's zygomatic arch, below and a few inches behind the earhole, where it is relatively flat. The arch showed a ~3" mark - more than a scratch, less than a groove - where the bullet impacted. The shot was at 35yds.

I have managed to shoot ivory twice, once with a 500gr, .458" Woodleigh at 2145fps and once with a .458" 450gr NF FN at 2220fps, both with the 1:14" rifle. The Woodleigh failed to penetrate the ivory, stopping about 1/2 of the way through, iirc. Ivory circumforance was about fourteen or fifteen inched as I recall. The Woodleigh was rivited. The flatened one side of its nose and bent almost 180*, though it centered the ivory. Penetration was aabout a quarter to a third through the ivory, which had roughly the same circumference as the tusk shot with the Woodkeigh. I may have that bullet too if you would like a phot, and maybe the Woodleigh if you would like a photo of that. Range for both misguided insurance shots was less than ten yards.

I have to say that I was suprised that the Woodleigh faired better, and disapointed in the NF's bending rather than riveting.

Let me know if you would like photos or if the you want the total deviation on the bullet that veered on the brain shot.

I believe you know that I was a relatively early and enthusiastic fan of truncated cone FN solids. I remain so and would use yours if I didn't have a supply of NF's. But I have also come to believe that Woodleighs and other quality steel jacketed RN's can be relied upon to provide excellent performance, albeit while providing less penetration. Yes, they have a strong tendency to tumble. But after digging for many, and following their wound channels, I have concluded that they tend to tumble only when they have lost a great proportion of their velocity, after they have done their jobs. I also believe that the RN's are better for penetrating heavy bone. So I have reverted from an all FN loading to a Woodleigh solid first and then all FN's.

JPK