Jay,
The only problem with the calculator is that I do not know what the powder charge and velocity will actually be.

The above quote was just an off the head recollection while mobile.

Here is another try:

12 Guage from Purgatory:
11.5 lbs. gun
1470-grain slug

SWAG #1: 200 grains of powder for Wished for 1470 fps MV
recoil energy = 265.3 ft-lbs
recoil velocity = 38.5 fps

SWAG #2: 150-grain powder charge for 1100 fps MV
148.8 ft-lbs
28.8 fps

I might be able to survive SWAG #2.

I am dropping back and still punting:

Will use 2.5" brass that will give a COL of 3.1875" with half of The Darwin slug seated, and half sticking out of the brass. That will easily fit in the 3" chamber:

Apologies to anyone in my hotmail address book who is getting malicious emails requesting a loan of $2500.

Some moron highjacked my hotmail account, says he was at a conference in Atlanta, GA and lost his wallet, needs funds "to pay for hotel bills and I am feeding." Something like that. It also needs to get back to "Kentuckey."

Reckon the criminal is from "Turkey?"

BTT:
That Magtech 2.5" brass is really flimsy looking.
The RCBS 12Ga "Cowboy" die set is interesting, with a shellholder to fit 12Ga rim.

I need better brass.

RIP

Glad I checked in here. I was wondering whether you had moved to Nigeria, and would be including me in a future deal to make millions of dollars by helping you get money out of the country for some high government official in a perfectly legal manner....

I got one too. Just shows to go you, you can't be too careful.
Max

I forward all my dangerous e-mail to Al Gore. An internet saavy guy like him will know what to do...

BTT, and continuing on the dangerous theme:

The 3.5" brass from RMC is not available yet.
Ed Hubel is spearheading that campaign, it is in the works.

I will send Ed "The Darwin" slug when I have made some from the Brooks' Brothers mould.

Ed has graciously agreed to protect me from myself.

The 3.5" 12-Guage from Hubel: 12GaFH 3.5"
will be good training wheels for the
3.85" 12-Guage from Hell: 12GaFH 3.85"

Meanwhile, I will start playing with the "tricycle":
3" 12-Guage from Purgatory: 12GaFP 3"

Hi-brass/plastic 3" hulls will work as well as the flimsy 2.5" Magtech brass ... with maybe 50 grains of 4759 or 4227 ... and a 3.36 ounce slug ...

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
I forward all my dangerous e-mail to Al Gore. An internet saavy guy like him will know what to do...

Have ordered some RMC brass in 2-5/8", 2-7/8", and the much heralded but not produced 3.5" 12 Guage. I am waiting along with others for that now.

Should be interesting to play with this brass assortment.

I definitely see the utility of turning the rimless-rim off of 50BMG brass and threading a 12-guage rim onto the case, which could even be a steel rim.

Since the 12GaFH boys are not stocking their brass for sale, I may be looking for a local machinist to make some 12GFP brass for me.

If you cut off the 50BMG case right at the shoulder-body junction, that brass is 3.060" long and then blowing the case body taper out to 12G chamber might result in 2-7/8" brass length perfect for 12GFP.
If the RMC brass hulls work out, it won't be necessary.

700 Nitro Express brass is very close to 12G-3.5" ... rim a little too thick and case head diameter a little too small in the 700 NE ...

Has anyone ever thinned the rim and fired a 700 NE case in a 12G-3.5" chamber? Would that be a balloon head case before and/or after the firing?

3" 12 Guage brass case made from 50BMG.
Loaded with The Darwin Slug sticking out to fill the 3.5" 12G chamber.
1470 grains of lead is a big fist.
12 Guage From Purgatory has been renamed: 12 Guage Hellboy

If a puny little grenade launcher hanging off an M-16 can throw a 1/2 pound 40mm grenade, the Hellboy ought to sling 1/3 pound lead slugs nicely, and a little higher velocity.

Ought to put any 4-bore ball to shame.

I have been informed that making 12 Guage brass from 50BMG brass is a no-brainer that even I can handle ... if the RMC brass is found wanting.

Thanks be to the pioneers of the 12GaFH, Rob and Ed.

12G Hellboy: 2-7/8" brass from RMC will give COL 3.250" to 3.875" with The Darwin slug, depending on where you crimp and how long the chamber is. Plenty of room for wads and pressure relief.
Dave Casey needs to make some suitable cases.

12GaHellboy could be fired in either 12GafromHell or 12GafromHubel, of course.

50BMG primer would be nice ...

Hey, is that The Darwin Slug sticking out of his sleeve? Nice brass colored sleeve.

I gotta get some of that "Red Lube" for the grooves of The Darwin.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Good idea!
Do it in copper. I'll load it in a 2.5" brass case to fill the 3" chamber, with a compressed load of H50BMG.

That half-inch-diameter x 0.6875" deep cavity will be filled with H50BMG that will continue burning after exit from the muzzle, and possibly produce a rocket-propelled/recoiless rifle.

I will of course have to have the lead slugs too, because I am not satisfied if they do not kick just a little bit.

RIP,

And I thought we were all mad in Oz

Blair,
This spawn from hell will be a hoot.
If I ever work up to a full case of H50BMG instead of 4227 and wads, there will be some muzzle flash.
I need to get the Ultra slug reamed out to longer than 3" chamber.
The Rob & Ed madness is contagious.
I am merely in the early stages of this insanity.
Steve Brooks is working on the mould for The Darwin.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

I am merely in the early stages of this insanity.

Nope! You be in Denial, and not the river! You're a full blown Mega Bore Junkie! It's OK, just be calm and all become rational, once more.

.366torque,
No, no. I am not certifiable. After a few punches from Hellboy, I'll probably be loading those hulls with shot ... nice brass hulls for small ganme ...

quote:

Here is another try:

12 Guage from Purgatory:
11.5 lbs. gun
1470-grain slug

SWAG #1: 200 grains of powder for Wished for 1470 fps MV
recoil energy = 265.3 ft-lbs
recoil velocity = 38.5 fps

SWAG #2: 150-grain powder charge for 1100 fps MV
148.8 ft-lbs
28.8 fps

Rip, I used Blue Dot in my 4 and get 700fps with 40 grains (like shooting a 22, VERY fun), 1270fps with 80gns, and 1330fps with 85 grains, all under a 1500 grain ball. I've shot well over 100 grains but settled on 40 and 85 grains for round balls.

I always take a few of the light loads to the range for any spectators to fire. They always smile. Recoil with the heavy load is heavy but not severe or brutal in a 16.5lb gun.

Bob

Omnivorous_Bob,
Thanks, that is helpful.
I should have about as much lead in The Darwin as a 5-bore ball, which would weigh about 1400 grains.
Allowing higher pressures with Hellboy, I might get to 7000 ft-lbs yet.

Ed Hubel is getting double that energy with lighter slugs and 12GaFromHubel/Hell.

My recoil numbers with heavy charges of slow powder may be mere fantasy.
Faster powder and lighter charge weights will surely be hoped for.

Maybe the 12GaHellBoy-3" will have some big brass balls?

.729-caliber Brass Darwin slug, 1.375" long.
3" 50BMG case with screwed on rim.
Loaded long enough to fill out a 3.5" chamber.

Just noticed I mislabeled The Darwin slug sketch.
Here is corrected, in brass might weigh 1105 grains, in copper maybe 1157 grains? Sure would be nice, with the SD close to 0.300 in brass or copper.

Reversible cuppoint/FN:
.729/1105-gr brass SD = 0.297
.729/1157-gr copper SD = 0.311
.730/1471-gr lead SD = 0.394

Macifej's drawing of The Darwin slug, to be done in brass:



His calculated brass weight is pending, should be better than a SWAG.

Net weight 1125 grains = Sd .302

That's cool as hell!

Those will be good to start with in the 12 Guage Hellboy. Working with the lighter brass might keep me from hurting myself with lead.

Might drill some holes in a few and use em for a Marlin Jig on the troll...

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Might drill some holes in a few and use em for a Marlin Jig on the troll...

Well, this may be like "going off the deep end" but don't care for deep sea fishing.
The only kind of fishing I like to do is snagging salmon. Preferably where I can see them swimming by and snag them with a treble hook ... in the mouth ... if Fish&Game are watching me.

I could certainly drill the holes about 7/16" diameter to a depth of 1" in the base of that brass slug if needed for varmint loads.

So, Jay, do you have 830-grain and 1000-grain .729" brass FN's also (listed on your web site)?

No .775" slug of copper for the .775 Rigby Nitro Express/10-bore?

quote:

do you have 830-grain and 1000-grain .729" brass FN's also

The 1000's are a standard part number. The 830's are a freak which we designed for a guy who wanted them for a lever gun of sorts. They're both the latest SHAARC design.

RIP- As you go ndown this road here is something to consider. I started with some brass shotgun cases and lost about 80% of them in the reloading process with tearing off the rims or bending them. This is true for the 12GaFH also. Steel rims help but still tear out in the resizing process. The answer was to make a separate thread on .50BMG rim out of brass or steel.. You could then use std .50BMG shellholders for all reloading and its super strong. At the end of reloading, screw on the 12Ga Rim adapter. End of problem.
Macifej might be enticed to make a run of threaded .50BMG cases and Rims. How much for 1000 assuming we supply the brass? Alternatively,I could do the threaded Rims. The cases are a pain for me though.
I also found that H50BMG is way too slow and that I could use a case full of RL-25 and get good reults. Rl-22 is even better. Ed has some loads that also should prove safe .-Rob

After years of this thread and now approaching 44,000 views ...

Is it not time for a commercial 12GaFH case made from brand new Winchester 50BMG brass from Midway, with a screw on 12 guage rim made of steel or brass?

I think I could cut them off to 3" and fire form and there won't be much sizing to worry about ripping off the rims.

My angle on this is using 2-7/8"/ 3" brass in a 3.5" chamber with ultra-heavy slug, loaded long to fill the chamber.

If I ever get to full 3.85" chamber length of the 12GaFH, then I will consider that freebore for pressure reduction.

Maybe the "low" velocities will be O.K. pressure-wise with H50BMG and the ultra-heavy slugs. If too low, I will go to the RL-25 or RL-22, as Rob recommends, or H4831SC. Full case or bust!!!

Oops! I got confused about what thread I was on. The 12 Guage Hellboy is merely a mutant spawn of the 12GaFH.
As you were.
I will go to the "12 Ga From Hell-WOW" thread and ask the question about brass in the proper place.

Now I'm thinking about getting one of these monsters....a bit down the line as if a .500 A2 and .600 OK won't be enough!

I've read a bit about some of you guys building the 12 GaFH, 12 Ga Hellboy, and other variations on the Savage 210, NEF's Ultra Slug, and the T/C Encore. Which is the best and/or simplest option that will produce a fun and functional super-big-bore and not cost a fortune? What needs to be done to these firearms to make them suitable. I would be happy to get .729-.730" brass, copper & lead bullets of 1000gr - 1400gr up to 1400 fps, at least but probably not much crazier than that.....AT FIRST ANYWAYS!!!! .... Who should I talk to about building one of these super 12's??

I've also read that the .700 NE could be built on the Savage 210. Who can/will do this? That sounds like a cool idea too but would pressures be too high? Can the .700 NE be built on the NEF Ultra Slug receiver?

Sorry for so many questions guys.

After seeing what the 730 gr Dixie Slug @ about 1300 fps can do out of my Remington 870, I would love to see the effects of a .730" 1400 grainer @ 1500 fps mv!!!!

The Savage will do the 700NE, but it will do my
700H just as well. Cases are 1/8 as much.
The NEF wouldn't extract good with 700NE.
And getting a 700 barrel made for NEF would
cost 3 times what the gun cost. Simplest is to
lengthen NEF chamber for 3.5" case or our
long case.Ed

srshooter,
Attaboy! Spoken like a true Professional Small Boy (PSB).

I started my shooting life at 8 years of age with my Pop's Ted Williams 12 Guage from Sears&Roebuck.

I shouldered that gun and pulled the trigger all by myself ... and Pop caught me and the gun as I went flying, like one of Saeed's "Champions" with the 577 Tee-Hee-Rex flying rifle.

I have finally come full circle back to the 12 Guage. It is more like heaven than hell.

My idea for now, is about a 3" brass case in a 3.5" chamber with the slug filling out the chamber, and a stack of wads filling out the powder space.

I will drill out the base of The Darwin Slug to lighten it from ~1470 grains to about 1000 grains, and add more powder and less wads and watch for trouble as I work up with heavier slugs, shallower hole drilled, and heavier powder charges.

I certainly hope to stop short of a kaboom.

Someday, a falling block 12 guage shotgun more sveldt than Rob's Borchardt would be nice.

If 3.85" brass (made from 50BMG or even one-piece brass) becomes available to me, Hellboy may grow some!

Listen to Ed. He is The Guru.

Could a Ruger #1 be converted to 12ga__?

srshooter, I personally like the T/C Encore Prohunter. The stock is very ergonomic, all stainless steel and is easily reamed out from 3" to 3.5". It will take more pressure then the NEF, and about as much as the modified Savage. The hammer is already made strong enough to fire 50BMG/rifle primers and has a 28" fluted barrel with a nice 1:28 twist (very crisp rifling might I add). Price is a bit high, but the quality makes a difference. Just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
Could a Ruger #1 be converted to 12ga__?

The .748" rim and .660" base diameter of the 577 Nitro Express is as big as even JDJ goes on the Ruger No.1. Skinny barrel shank, ejection/safety button issues, and safety issues with anything bigger.

We need a Ruger No.1 scaled up about 50%.

I will be looking at TC and savage too, but want to just start shooting something in the Ultra Slug: 12 guage load development training wheels, you know?

quote:

We need a Ruger No.1 scaled up about 50%.

This is a job for S U U U U U U Per Rob

Rob, a supersize #1 would be so cool. Did u get that EDM machine yet?

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
The Savage will do the 700NE, but it will do my
700H just as well. Cases are 1/8 as much.
The NEF wouldn't extract good with 700NE.
And getting a 700 barrel made for NEF would
cost 3 times what the gun cost. Simplest is to
lengthen NEF chamber for 3.5" case or our
long case.Ed

Thanks ED!! Will anything have to be done to the NEF besides reaming the chamber to 3.5" or 3.85" ? Will the existing hammer/firing pin be ok or would I need to modify?

The 700H sounds good too. Is the Savage 210 the best way to go for this cartridge? What would I need to do to the Savage 210 so it will work properly with this cartridge? I'll try to find out what I can by searching older posts but any info would be appreciated.

It seems like the NEF Ultra 12 Gauge is the best place to start though and I know where to find a used model (in very good condition too) for a song & dance......unless someone picked it up in the last 3 days.

Thanks Again!

RIP & Extremist458, thanks for the input fellas! I'll definately look into it. As I've stated before, I should have my .500 A2 by the year's end......and hopefully a .600 OK in the first 1/2 of 2009......but as reasonably priced as the NEF Ultra 12 is, I might squeeeeeeze it in between. All of these SUPER-12's & .700's seem like lots 'n' lotsa FUN!!!

With Savage and NEF firing mechanisms ok for
regular primered cases. If using bmg cases
with rims on you will have to beef them up.
Nef good start place as it is a third cost of
an Encore, and use same barrel on
both of them..Savage cost twice more than NEF
and needs heavy barrel added. Savage triple
locking lugs strongest of the three, have to
add heavy barrel,Savage extracts best.On NEF
you improve extraction by shimming extractor
spring.. Ed

Ed et al: ever look at one of these for Bubbafyin'

http://www.knightrifles.com/productdetail.aspx?id=P1SGT12BN

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
With Savage and NEF firing mechanisms ok for
regular primered cases. If using bmg cases
with rims on you will have to beef them up.
Nef good start place as it is a third cost of
an Encore, and use same barrel on
both of them..Savage cost twice more than NEF
and needs heavy barrel added. Savage triple
locking lugs strongest of the three, have to
add heavy barrel,Savage extracts best.On NEF
you improve extraction by shimming extractor
spring.. Ed

Mr. Hubel, I guess what I really mean to ask is....How much $$$ am I looking at to have a Savage 210 built that would chamber the 12GFH and/or 12 Gauge Hellboy and get it to feed/fire reliably.......and ditto for the NEF/H&R Ultra. I would prefer the 210 for it's strength and repeated firepower if it's not too rich for my blue collar level wallet to endure.

I can ream the NEF Slugger to depth myself but who can build me one on the Savage 210? Where can I get the ammo, brass, bullets, etc....I like the idea of using .50 BMG cases with the threaded rim too! GREAT IDEA! This whole project is very interesting and seems to represent the most affordable way to get a REAL STOMPER!!!

If it seems pretty reasonable, and it does so far, I may have to put the .600 OK on the backburner. About how fast could I expect to push a 1400 gr hardcast bullet and 1200 gr brass solid from the 3" case version with the bullet seated just shy of 3.5" oal and still retain moderate pressures? I would think it would at least get 1500 fps with 1400 grains safely. I would want to keep my rifle in the 13-14 pound range, so I doubt I'd want to go much faster!

Again, thanks for the helpful info! Mr. Hubel, you and Rob Garnick(among many others that post here) are true pioneers in the big bore wildcat industry and I appreciate the knowledge that you guys share with those of us who are eager to learn. THANK YOU!!!!