Atkinson, I loaded Rel7 with Swift 450gr Aframe and it was a compressed load. I just happened to use 66 gr too. So I don't trust your source.

I experimented a bit with 500gr and 450gr Swifts in a 458 this past summer in North Texas. We had one of the hottest summers on record.
I used AA 2230 exclusively

500 gr
Ran it up to 74 gr of powder (compressed)> Velocity out of my Browning Safari was about 2220 as I recall
I settled on 72 gr @ about 2170 with what appeared to be a 100% load density with Winchester brass, Fed 215 & a crimp.
Logic told me that if I was not experiencing issues with 74 gr at 100F that I probably would not with 72 gr.

Did not have any extraction issues @ 100 F with either load.

The load that proved exceptional was 74 gr AA 2230 behind a 450 Swift @ 2270 FPS. 4 shots a bit smaller than a quarter @100 yards.

Swifts are pretty short bullets for their weight allowing less chance compaction.

EZ

The 450 N.E. has been heralded as one of the all time great double rifle calibers. It puts out a 480 gr. bullet at about 2100 fps or so, (remember all test barrels back in the day were about 28" in length), so the average 450 N.E. today is around the 2000 +/- fps range.
So, just tell everyone that you are shooting a rimless 450 N.E. and they will all slap you on the back and congratulate you on such a fine choice! Just don't mention 458 WM, as thet then makes a 500 gr bullet at 2050 fps wholly inadequate, whereas if you use the term 450 N.E. somewhere in the description, it fixes that problem!

I have used Swift and Barnes bullets both in the 458 WM, using H335 powder. I have killed buffalo and zebra with this combination and never had any issues with the loads. I am not sure if the load was compressed, but there was little room left. Barnes bullets in the 450 grain were particularly accurate and penetrated quite well.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
I experimented a bit with 500gr and 450gr Swifts in a 458 this past summer in North Texas. We had one of the hottest summers on record.
I used AA 2230 exclusively

500 gr
Ran it up to 74 gr of powder (compressed)> Velocity out of my Browning Safari was about 2220 as I recall
I settled on 72 gr @ about 2170 with what appeared to be a 100% load density with Winchester brass, Fed 215 & a crimp.
Logic told me that if I was not experiencing issues with 74 gr at 100F that I probably would not with 72 gr.

Did not have any extraction issues @ 100 F with either load.

The load that proved exceptional was 74 gr AA 2230 behind a 450 Swift @ 2270 FPS. 4 shots a bit smaller than a quarter @100 yards.

Swifts are pretty short bullets for their weight allowing less chance compaction.

EZ

Ditto on all EZ said. See: http://forums.accuratereloadin...4911043/m/3971076231

AA 2230 powder and 450 gr flat point monolithic solids and premium softs like North Forks are a match made in heaven.

A 450 gr .458 NF FPS going ~2250 will out penetrate a 500 grain .458 conventional solid going 2150 every time.

Steph123,
My source is the Swift Reloading manual on compaction. H335 showed 98% and that is compaction, so they are being leinient with us. I also felt the load was compacted. However it is the least compacted load listed..

BTW I am perfectly happy with a 458 Win and a 500 gr. bullet at 2000 to 2050 FPS, I have never seen anything it would not kill and do it in a hurry. All I have said is if I wanted to push the .458 to its max limit with compacted powder and high pressures then I would simply convert my gun to a Lott.

465,
I guess if Jack O and Elmer K, recommended compacted loads and you apparantly accept that then by all means you may do so, but be forewarned that they used old army surplus 4831 powder that took up less room in a case, Jack used 62 grs. in his .270 (so do I as I have a supply of that powder) BUT If you use todays 4831 then his loads will be compacted to the gills and move your bullets forward overnight, if you can even get 62 grs. in a 270 case. That is how that rumor got started btw..

I don't choose to use compacted loads in high heat areas..I'm not saying its dangerous in all respects. all I am saying is compaction pushes bullets forward in your magazine and if overdone creates jams, It also causes caked powder that tends to cause misfires or squib loads that go out the barrel at half velocity or even less..

I only submit my opinnion on these threads like everyone else, whatever one does is none of my business..Its a discussion and nothing more and hopefully interesting and not arguementive.

I don't like compressed loads either. If you drop AA-2230 into your .458 WM case with a 24" drop tube...I have never had to compress it even with 500's and 72 gr of AA 2230 which will run a 500 to about 2150 in most rifles.

I have loaded a lot of 458 Win ammo with the load given above and have never noticed any compaction occuring when I seat bullets. If there is some it is very minor.

465H&H

Lane,
I'll have to give that try..I am building a 458 for a fellow..

465,
Like I said I have not tried AA-2230, maybe you guys are on to something, but I'm still trying to talk my client into a Lott!

I'm sorry, but I just feel like the Lott has so much more to offer and that is what the 458 Win. should have been to start with..It only makes good since to me...It is such a minor inexpensive conversion and the pluses are many are they not?? Even at that I shoot the Lott at 2150 FPS, don't need to shoot a .450 gr. to make it work as some suggest with the .458. as my 500 gr. load is so very mild in pressure..Those that make the 458 work by shooting less bullet weight are IMO admitting the caliber is flawed..

All that said, its only opinnion and if one is satisfied with his .458 then fine and its a good enough caliber, I have used it successfully on Buffalo and its a great buff caliber as I loaded it..

I have had many such conversations with Phil Shoemaker, Finn Aagaard, George Hoffman, all very experienced hunters and all but George were .458 fans..George and I used each other for pounding boards as neither of us particularly liked the .458..Phil will argue with me til hell freezes over, and Finn, God rest his soul, would go one to one with me on the subject. Thats the fun part of being a gun nut...I see tension and even anger these days over guns and calibers, thats ridiculas.

quote:

I'm sorry, but I just feel like the Lott has so much more to offer and that is what the 458 Win. should have been to start with..It only makes good since to me...It is such a minor inexpensive conversion and the pluses are many are they not?? Even at that I shoot the Lott at 2150 FPS, don't need to shoot a .450 gr. to make it work as some suggest with the .458. as my 500 gr. load is so very mild in pressure..Those that make the 458 work by shooting less bullet weight are IMO admitting the caliber is flawed..

Ray

You are not totally off base with your comparisons to the Lott. The Lott has a "Lott" to offer, and more than a 458 Winchester. No one would argue that. But with todays powders and new bullet technology, the 458 Winchester no longer is inadequate in any way. I have shot lions, elephant, buffalo, and hippo with both cartridges, and by choosing the right bullet for the mission, then nothing comes up short with either cartridge. You would really hate my 458 B&M as it is a 1/4 inch shorter than the 458 Winchester, but equal or slightly exceeding 458 Win capacity. It works with totally different powders and like the 458 Win it works best at 450 gr bullets, which a 450 BBW#13 will shoot clear through elephants broadside and zero issues reaching buffalo vitals from the dead rear end, and whizzes through hippo broadside like butter. Running at 2200 fps, in an 18 inch barrel. I will be working up some loads for some of the 458 guys, in both Lott and Winchester over the next week or two with as many of the new powders as I have currently, which is several.

As for my load data on both 458s it is dated as well, 5-6 years old and back then I was using RL 15 and Extremely Compressed loads. I shot a lot of them in the Lott and 458 Winchester, and I have serious heat and humidity here in SC, but I have carried them many times to Zimbabwe in October and November, and 110-115 degrees, zero issues. Hell, I like to mash as much powder in there as you can! Keeps the bullet from going backwards in the magazine! HEH HEH........

458 Winchester Flawed? Not flawed, maybe the people who designed it was flawed and ignorant to boot. Had a perfectly good rifle, could have made it a Lott, and I agree, that was stupid of the powers there WERE at Winchester. Flawed however I would not go there, short on case capacity, not so much these days with new powders. It's always been a 450 gr Cartridge, and nothing at all wrong with that, and most good 450s will out perform the old 500s from not so long ago! 450s From Barnes, North Fork, CEB, Swift and others, far out perform any 500s from 50 years ago, hell, even just a few years ago. The only way you beat a Swift 450 is with a Swift 500. Want to compare a 450 Swift, 450 Barnes, 450 North Fork and Cutting Edge with one of the old 500 gr Winchesters from 50 yrs ago? I will take that bet every day of the week!

All good stuff, all good discussion, god knows I have carried both 458 Winchester and 458 Lott all over the planet and with proper bullets and good powder, never came short with either. How does one enhance any cartridge? It's about the bullet!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I just feel like the Lott has so much more to offer ..It only makes good since to me...It is such a minor inexpensive conversion and the pluses are many are they not?? ..Those that make the 458 work by shooting less bullet weight are IMO admitting the caliber is flawed..

You look at the Lott as an improvement compared to the 458WM in about the same manner as I look at the 458WM as an improvement compared to the 45-70 or 450 Marlin.

The 458WM provides a 45 Cal cartridge more suitable for a bolt action, slick feeding, and more case capacity than the latter two.

I don't consider the conversion of an action to handle the Lott minor and inexpensive. For example, I don't even know how it could be done with my Ruger action, and I wouldn't want to anyway.

It's not just a matter of all pluses, converting or comparing the Lott to the 458, especially if one wants to AVOID 500gr bullets. As I said before, the real virtues of the 458WM show when 350gr to 450gr bullets are loaded. IMO, shooting 458WM ammo in the Lott chamber is silly, with all that freebore. Using lighter bullets in the 458, to give it broader utility, is in no way recognizing flaws of the cartridge, but quite the contrary. It's recognizing the many attributes of the cartridge, which remain obscure to those who think in terms of the only bullet in 45cal that's useful is the 500gr.

KB

I would like to add one more little tidbit to my thoughts on 458 Winchester. I have Lotts and Winchesters and B&Ms all in 458, and love 458 caliber. I have nothing against the Lotts at all, but today the Lott is just not as "Required" as it once might have been. Back in the day the goal was a 500 gr bullet at 2150 fps. The Winchester could not do it, 50 years ago, and for 50 years ago it was a bad idea, considering the powders available at the time. The Lott would have been able to do the goal of a 500 gr bullet at 2150 fps without much issue. I doubt, and don't know of any decent 450 gr bullets in .458 that date to the time period. And they probably would not have been worth a damn anyway.

Point is, 50 years later, today, the 458 Winchester can safely reach that goal of a 500 at 2150 fps with relative ease, compressed or not, it does not matter. It can be "enhanced" by using proper designed 450 gr bullets that will accomplish ANY mission required of them, with ease. I would not under any conditions or terms convert a 458 Winchester to 458 Lott, just for the sake of another 1/4 inch or .3 inch of case. Not for a 150 fps or so.

Today, the 458 Lott is not "Required" to get the job accomplished. Nothing wrong with the Lott, nor any other higher capacity 458 cartridge, it's just simply not "Required" anymore. Wanted and desired is another story. I have half dozen Lotts sitting around today, they are not required for what I need to do with elephant, buffalo, and hippo any longer, so they are all retired and delegated to the range for test purposes only.

When it comes to thin skinned, KB has it whipped on his loads and bullets in 458. 458s are hammers on thin skinned critters, KB should try some of the new CEB NonCons if he wants to put stuff in the dirt quick, and I also like the light 325 North Fork Expanding CPS as well, hammers!

Michael

Gents,
At no point in my discussion did I say the 458 Win. was inadequite, in fact I said it was a good killer..I only said that I felt that the 458 Lott was a better option, and still believe that. I further said I could see no reason not to cut the chamber out a tad and make you 458 a Lott and have the best of both worlds..

I have yet to hear the down side of punching a 458 out to a Lott, why is that? because there is no downside! I think the only reason may be pride of ownership of a .458 Win. and I can't and won't argue that, it would be no use.

It amazes that any reasonable thinking person would even question such a practice or argue the point, other than to make a discussion and I suppose thats an option, but to believe otherwise is plumb strange to me..

Mr. K,
All you would have to do in your Ruger is run a reamer in the chamber. The .458 is a 2.5 case and the Lott is a 2.8, not that ain't much metal for a a couple of hundred plus some more FPS..

Ray, that same argument could be made for the 9.3x62 and the 9.3x64.
It is all too easy to imagine how a little more power might come in handy but if something is doing all that is ask of it the old axiom that "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is good advice.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Mr. K,
All you would have to do in your Ruger is run a reamer in the chamber. The .458 is a 2.5 case and the Lott is a 2.8, not that ain't much metal for a a couple of hundred plus some more FPS..

Now you really have me curious. Tonight or this weekend I'll study the matter. Based on memory, and the rifle isn't handy right now to look at, the way I'm seating bullets does leave some room up front in the magazine.

Just imagine the doctor bill for a dislocated shoulder, and/or to put my eye balls back in their sockets, after pulling the trigger on a 8 lb short throat Lott, out of a non-modified Ruger 77 MKII action, shooting 85+ grs of powder, pushing a 400gr bullet at 2500 + fps, or a 350gr at over 2700fps.

Scope use on such a rifle would be impossible, since the doctor would also have the task of restoring the right eye socket before inserting what remained of my eyeball. Also, I'm having enough trouble with scopes holding together with the std 458WM. I doubt there is a scope made to withstand the recoil of the combo mentioned above. It's an iron sight rifle only.

KB

The late Finn Aagaard had a 458 Win with a long throat and wrote up some of his testing where he simply seated bullets further out and was able to duplicate the Lott powder capacity.
but Finn remained a staunch supporter of the standard 458 Win because as he so elegantly put it
" a 500 gr .458 diameter bullet at 2000 fps makes a big bloody hole through anything it hits"

Here's a good write up on the Lott:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.458_Lott

Very thorough with reference info.

One thing of first significance to me, re conversions, is the picture of the Lott with the 500gr bullet side-by-side with the 375H&H. Same OAL length, which is what I've been saying all along. That clearly shows me that there is more to it than running a reamer in a 458WM chamber.

KB

KB, you don't jut run a reamer in most 458 Win rifles and end up with a working Lott. As you noticed they are the same OAL as the 375 H&H and require the same leghtened 3.6" magazine box and leghtened bolt throw with the ejector cut back.

If you actually feel that an additional 100 fps makes that much difference then there is nothing wrong with the Lott. It is a powerful, well designed round. But an average little league pitcher can throw a 500 gr bullet 100fps and exactly how much difference that makes on game is up to interpretation. Even Jack Lott said that all he wanted was an honest 2150 fps.
The longer bolt throw is also a factor. it doesn't appear to be much until you are under stress. Even the great elephant hunter Karamojo Bell said it was a real factor and numerous other hunters of dangerous game, myself included, feel the same.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
KB, you don't jut run a reamer in most 458 Win rifles and end up with a working Lott. As you noticed they are the same OAL as the 375 H&H and require the same leghtened 3.6" magazine box and leghtened bolt throw with the ejector cut back.

If you actually feel that an additional 100 fps makes that much difference then there is nothing wrong with the Lott. It is a powerful, well designed round. But an average little league pitcher can throw a 500 gr bullet 100fps and exactly how much difference that makes on game is up to interpretation. Even Jack Lott said that all he wanted was an honest 2150 fps.
The longer bolt throw is also a factor. it doesn't appear to be much until you are under stress. Even the great elephant hunter Karamojo Bell said it was a real factor and numerous other hunters of dangerous game, myself included, feel the same.

Exactly my thought! I shoot a ruger tang safety 30-06 and 338. Its great to know the bolt throw on my ruger 77 tang safety 458 is EXACTLY the same---so, I'm basically shooting the same gun at 3 different power levels. Whats the old saying about the guy shooting 1 gun?

Well of course one would have to open the box in the rear..

Phil,
I would probably shoot the 9.3x64 but brass is the problem there..I had a couple of them and they are nice..

To my notion the Africans have the right idea on the .458, they cut their chambers to the 458-3" and just use the basic brass..

Never accuse me of ever saying the 458 isn't capable, I keep having to repeat that in these posts, some just don't read well....All I am saying is to me its the best of both worlds to go to the Lott and load it to 458 velocities of 2100 or 2150 and have lower pressure in hot weather..or load it up to 2350 FPS if your tough enough..I'm not..but hey I can still shoot your beloved 458 factory ammo in the Lott...Now tell me where I'm wrong..

But to put it to bed I give up..I won't change my mind, but I do give up.

Phil,
No fair, you know I havn't shot the .458 Win or the Lott in years, I shoot the .416 Rem and 404 Jefferys..and if push comes to shove I'd hunt any animal on this earth with a 7x57 or 30-06 and without hesitation, but I still don't like that bullet we argue about....

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I have yet to be challanged by anyone that the 458 Win at 2150 is not dealing with over 100% load density, it just is, and its pretty much been ignored by the masses on AR...Much like Washington DC, you just hope it will go away!

Ray, get over it!!

You're living in the past, my man... you HAVE been challenged by myself and others. It appears that you don't do any current research, or reading. Or listen to facts because you don't want to... your mind is already made up, so why be confused with facts??

Check BARNES' MANUAL #4 and HONESTLY compare the 450gr and 500gr Banded Solids with the same in the Lott. Or Hornady's Manual. 2200 fps is possible with today's powders from 500s at modest compression, like 102%. Even the Lott shows compression on most loads.

Then, it's easy to seat bullets out, and crimp them in one or other of the grooves, reducing pressure and adding powder room, if needed or wanted.

Yes, you are playing the devil's advocate, as you ought to know that this has been hammered out on this forum in finite detail.

Merry Christmas, Ray.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
And if I were to choose a more conventional today for those duties, it would be the 350 TSX.

458 is versatile, perhaps one of the most versatile cartridges, calibers, ever.

Michael

Right on Michael... my favorite for North American big game is that 350 TSX in .458".
And I certainly agree about newer technology in components, like powders and bullets.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca