I have a 458 Win Mag that I have never fired and purchased in a two rifle deal.
I am not sure if I will keep it as I have never used this caliber.
I am looking for some help with persons who have taken game with this round,
I seek opinions on the effectiveness of this caliber on DG as well as
information on specific loads, I like barnes bullets and would particularly be
interested in anyone who has taken DG with 500 grain or 450 grain Barnes bullets.

The .458 Win. Mag. has a long record of performing well on DG. There were some issues early on with squib loads attributed to over-compressed ball powder, but that was fixed a long time ago.

With handloads and good bullets, it is a stone killer.

George

I agree. For those who worry about the velocity of 500gr bullets in the 458 { I don't], just use some good 450gr bullets.

In my 450 No2 450gr North Fork bullets at @2200fps have performed perfectly.

Richard Harland and Barrie Duckworth have killed a train load of Ele with the 458 Win.

Barrie told me 2150 fps and good to go. Today it is no great trick to make the 458 Win. run 2150.

HBH

As an aside if such luminaries in the world of big game hunting say 2150 fps then why does half or better on this site say more! more! more! velocity is better?

Just curious.

Clayman:

I have a .458wm and have taken 1 cape buffalo with it.

I used 450 North Fork Cup Points with AA2230 and got 2250 fps of MV with no powder compaction and no pressure signs.

It is easy to load and components are readily available. However, Winchester makes seasonal runs of .458 brass so that brand is not always available it seems.

AA2230, H-4198, and Reloader 7 seem to be popular powders.

I know you specifically mentioned Barnes bullets but take a look at North Fork soft, cup point and flat nosed solids. Their 450 grain offerings really shine in the .458WM.

Get a set of dies, and a Lee Factory Crimp die and have some fun.

RCG

quote:

why does half or better on this site say more! more! more! velocity is better?

For the same reason that while a 458 may be adequate, then a 600 is the Catz Nuts!!! Because we're rifle loonies :-)

pm sent

The 458 works here in Alaska as well.
It is an easy round to load for and a lot more practical than most folks give it credit for as it can be loaded down to 45-70 levels or up to it's full potential.

I wanted to have one made to my specs for a long time, but hesitated because I still retained the thought that it was a lot of money for a special purpose rifle, and I had others that would serve for a thumper.

Then the time came right, and I went ahead with it, and now wonder why I waited so long. My goal was to have a 45 cal rifle that produced ballistics about like a hot 45-70 load, but in a slick feeding bolt action. It satisfies my goal plus a lot more in reserve, if I want it.

So far I've handloaded from about 1000 fps to near 2500 fps. I've tested 300gr and 350gr Barnes, 350gr and 400gr Swifts, 400gr Speer and 405gr Remington, and 350gr Hornadys. They all are accurate. My rifle has a short throat, so the heaviest bullet I can use is about the 400gr Swift. It may work with the 450gr Swift, but I don't have any to try, and see no need of buying any for my purposes. I figure the 400gr Swifts at about 2300 fps ought to be just right for pappa bear.

My initial problem was it busted the 1x4 Leupold scope I put on it, so I had a great set of iron sights installed, which solved that problem. But I still miss a scope, so I recently ordered a 3X from the Leupold custom shop.

Anyway, I don't use the heavy loads often. My favorite load right now is the 300gr Barnes TTSX made for the SOCOM. I load it to about 2200 fps. I could push it faster, but see no need for what I'm gonna use it for.

It's a versitile cartridge, and easy to handload for. I've had about as much fun with my rifle as any rifle I've owned. Do I need it? Probably not, but I sure like it.

KB

Ok, I will play the devils advocate on this one, as usual..I have yet to see a load for the 458 Win that could reach 2100 FPS without a Load density of over 100..To me that spells compaction, compaction can cause problems in very hot weather..NO-0NE CAN DENY THIS, TRY AS YOU WILL...

I agree that IF you can get 2100 FPS with any 500 gr. bullet then its a killer..I have used the 458 Win with 500 gr. bullets at 2050 FPS and that was slightly compacted but seemed to work and it killed Buffalo very well indeed..

My validation of the caliber came with modifying my 458 to the 458 Lott, a very simple procedure and not expensive at all..Then I shot it at 2100 to 2300 FPS with very mild pressure, and I could still use 458 factory ammo..The Lott is an awsome caliber as is the Watts and Ackley..I just don't understand why eveyone doesn't do this, hell you could probably do that conversion with a fingernail file and a piece of 400 grt.

The Lott requires a long action. The only place in the world where a 500 gr bullet at 2300 fps is useful is Africa, and perhaps Australia on water buff. Otherwise it's just testosterone.

I do not argue about the suitability of the Lott in Africa, because it's too obvious that it is a worthwhile improvment for that use.

I get all the speed I want with bullets up to 400gr with mild compression of the powder, and that's a good load because if helps keep the bullet from defeating the crimp and setting back in the case from recoil. IMO, 500 gr .458 bullets in North America are useless as a practical matter. They are good only for those who like recoil.

IMO, thinking of the .458WM as a platform to launch 500gr bullets is part of the problem with the cartridge. It's too narrow in the full scope of possibilities with the cartridge. When one considers cast bullets at 1000fps - 1200fps, and bullets like the 300gr and 350gr Barnes, then the full potential of the cartridge begins to take shape.

For example, my 458 won't even chamber 500gr bullets, and I feel no loss of utility whatsoever. If fact, for me it is far more useful with bullets which have the short ogive made to fit the 45-70 throat.

KB

Why argue over the 458wm vs 458Lott again. I just went a bought a 460 Weatherby and said what the heck I'm done trying to compress powder into a H&H case. To the poster find a nice load to work up with and you'll love it.

Brad

Clayman

By all means keep, use and enjoy your 458 Winchester. I have been shooting 458s of all sorts for 20 years, versatile does not begin to tell you the whole story! Big things begin to happen at 458 caliber, and the velocity the 458 Winchester can work with. Choices of various sorts of bullets is incredible to say the least. I think there are even some now that are under 300 grs, but from there up to conventional 500 gr bullets is a wide spread! Buy cheap Remington 300 or 405s for plinking and playing, many choices of premiums for serious work, from light to heavy, and now even super premiums as well.

Regardless of what some folks say about compression, they are still living in the stone age of powder selection. I compress the hell out of loads all the time, and these same loads have hunted deepest darkest and F**K all hottest of Africa at 115 degrees, not to mention I live in SC and summers are 95% humidity and 110. Compression is not an issue. Maybe 50-60 yrs ago, not today.

For the heaviest of critters, the 458 Winchester capacity is at it's best with good 450 gr bullets! In 24 inches of barrel you can easy run 2250-2275 fps with the 450s, and you will never need a 500 for anything. Buffalo, hippo, and elephant, all hit the dirt with proper 450s!

For thin skinned dangerous, a good 350 to 400 gr at 2300-2400 fps will do anything you can dream of, and is excellent for moose, elk, and all the plains game as well!

Load up some 300s of various models to 2100-2200 fps and go deer shooting as well!

458 is a marvelous caliber, and there is no moss growing on 458 Winchester, and no need for 458 Lott unless one wants it! I have several 458 Winchesters, and even more 458 Lotts. Today I shoot one of my own and the other various 458s are retired, but always have a home!

I have no idea what your other rifle was in the two rifle deal, your 458 is the best of the two! HEH.... By all means, keep it and enjoy it!

Michael

When I was using a 458 Win mag I preferred the 400gr Woodleighs at about 2300 fps and the 450gr Swifts at 2230 fps. I used Reloder 7 for both bullets and had reasonable powder compression. It worked well and I shot one cow elk, using the 400gr Woodleigh, and a water buffalo bull using the 450gr Swift. I had the rifle rebarrelled and it is now a 375 Chatfield-Taylor, a cartridge I much prefer. Why you ask, because the recoil is much lower, and it seems to kill just as quickly as the 458 Win mag did. I can actually shoot the 375 comfortably from the bench. I simply could not shoot the 458 from the bench, and even off hand could not handle more than 8 or 9 full power rounds.

Ksbluey,
The Lott does not require a long action, it is perfect in a slightly modified std. Mod. 98 Mauser of Win. Mod. 70..

Going to a 450 gr. bullet in the 458 win is not the answer, you lose valueble sectional density and penetratiton is of utmost importance IMO with any big bore..I would always take a 458 cal.500 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS over a 400 or 450 gr. bullet as is often quoted on these blogs at 2300 FPS or there abouts..I still like two holes..

I have yet to be challanged by anyone that the 458 Win at 2150 is not dealing with over 100% load density, it just is, and its pretty much been ignored by the masses on AR...Much like Washington DC, you just hope it will go away!

I think Michael has proven enough times over and over that newer bullets with better construction and more technology behind them, can be "stepped down" and still penetrate as far or farther then old style heavy for caliber bullets. Tradition says the heaviest bullet possible, but, those traditions where made 20, 30, 60 years ago when bullets in a sense, sucked. I really wonder, if Jack had a 450gr bullet of the quality we have now, would he have been worked over by that buff? Would the Lott never have came to be (450 Watts and other similar cats aside, those didn't become factory standards like the Lott)?

I am probably getting off the intent of the thread but in answer to the last 2 posts, I have been thrice told by African PH's that my loads and bullet weights won't work. I have tried a bit light for caliber bullets on 3 of my hunts, being confident in bullet construction and placement. I think what most PH's, especially for plains game, see is a hunter that spent x amount of money on a hunt and airfare and the rifles he brought, when the hunter brings out his ammo, a lot of the time he has gone to the local WalMart or sporting goods store and bought what he has traditionally used for antelope, deer, bear or elk. They keep telling me "Heavier and slower is better than normal/light and faster!" I don't think they take into consideration that bullet technology has moved into a much more durable, resiliant projectile. While I wouldn't try the 235 Barnes TSX on dangerous game, it just kills everything you hammer with it. I was told that the 300 RUM with 180 gr bullets was moving too fast and it would fail. They were wrong again. Again, the Barnes did it's job.
On the other side of the coin. If the bullet you are using is moving at slower velocities, I think that mass translates into energy better with a heavier bullet than a lighter one.
Ray, while helping to work up loads for a .458 win, one of the guys was getting all the way up to 2230 with a 500 gr Hornady. I will have to check on the powder, either H4831 or H4895, but that is just off the top of my head, and they reduced the loads to make them less compressed to 73.0 grains and were chronoing loads right at 2150. density at the max was definitely compressed but not too bad at the 73. grains.
I like the .458 but I also like my .458 Lott. The Lott gives me the power level I am looking for without the compression. My loads were very consistent and accurate with 335 powder and the velocities were 2254 and 2260 with softs and solids, respectively. And you're right, the Lott will fit in a Remington Action and feed just fine, it just won't chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Ksbluey,
The Lott does not require a long action, it is perfect in a slightly modified std. Mod. 98 Mauser of Win. Mod. 70..

Going to a 450 gr. bullet in the 458 win is not the answer, you lose valueble sectional density and penetratiton is of utmost importance IMO with any big bore.

I just go by what I read about the Lott, since I've not owned one.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/450Watts.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.458_Lott

I am opposed to opening up a Mauser to accept 375 H&H length cartridges. There are acceptable actions which require no modifications, such as the CZ 550 Safari, and that's what I would use.

There are lots of actions that will accept the 458 WM.

As I said, maybe in Africa the sectional density of a 500 gr bullet is useful, but I think it's a handicap in Alaska, for example. The 350gr Barnes TSX and other 350gr bullets, and especially the 400gr Swift or Northfork are plenty adequate for brown bear, and will probably exit, unless shot lengthways, rather than broadside. The extra speed is far more useful in the field than the extra bullet weight. As I see it, the 500 gr is for real close up work as a stopper, shooting at something facing you in a charge, for example. The 400gr is a stopper too, for brown bear, but it will work at 100yds well too.

IMO, if a brown bear or moose can't be dispatched quickly, regardless of its disposition, with a 400 gr swift from a full load out of a 458 WM, then whatever a Lott with a 500 gr bullet has to offer isn't going to change the outcome any measurable way. After some point in energy and penetration, it's just numbers.

Now, if we were discussing a bull hippo charge, then that may be different, but IMO there is no way even the largest of critters can keep coming, hit right with a tough 400gr bullet like the Swift or Northfork. Maybe I'm wrong about that, and that's why solids are used. I just can't see how anything, except perhaps an elephant, could keep standing after hit between the eyes with such force.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Ksbluey,
The Lott does not require a long action, it is perfect in a slightly modified std. Mod. 98 Mauser of Win. Mod. 70..

Going to a 450 gr. bullet in the 458 win is not the answer, you lose valueble sectional density and penetratiton is of utmost importance IMO with any big bore..I would always take a 458 cal.500 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS over a 400 or 450 gr. bullet as is often quoted on these blogs at 2300 FPS or there abouts..I still like two holes..

I have yet to be challanged by anyone that the 458 Win at 2150 is not dealing with over 100% load density, it just is, and its pretty much been ignored by the masses on AR...Much like Washington DC, you just hope it will go away!

Ray,

All pre-64 Model 70 actions were of the same length whether for the 243 Win or 375 H&H. My Lott was made from a 30-06 Pre 64. The main difference was in the length of the magazine.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Brad aka Pill Shooter:
Why argue over the 458wm vs 458Lott again. I just went a bought a 460 Weatherby and said what the heck I'm done trying to compress powder into a H&H case. To the poster find a nice load to work up with and you'll love it.

Brad

This made me laugh. Not that the 460 isn't better, just that when I had one I was trying to compress the powder in its huge case. I thought how big do I have to go?

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Ksbluey,
The Lott does not require a long action, it is perfect in a slightly modified std. Mod. 98 Mauser of Win. Mod. 70..

Ray,

All pre-64 Model 70 actions were of the same length whether for the 243 Win or 375 H&H. My Lott was made from a 30-06 Pre 64. The main difference was in the length of the magazine.

465H&H

Perhaps the magazine length is the only change that you noticed. The bolt face and extractor is opened, the ejector set back, and the magazine widened, and the feed rails and ramp too. Then the rear bridge is sometimes opened back to provide ease of loading. There are lots of changes, all done by the hand of a skilled gunsmith, and the darn thing will still hold three down, unless you change the follower to a much flatter piece or use a drop box magazine.

All the while, nowadays, there is the CZ 550, which requires none of those mods, at about 1/3 or 1/4 of the cost, counting gunsmith time, and as I recall it holds five down.

But what the heck, it's only your money.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I have yet to be challanged by anyone that the 458 Win at 2150 is not dealing with over 100% load density, it just is, and its pretty much been ignored by the masses on AR.

Again, that statment pertains to the 500gr bullet.

I don't ignore the case capacity or load density of the 458WM. I use it to advantage. There may be a precieved problem with the heavy bullets and case capacity, but I don't experience that with 350gr and 400gr bullets. I suppose it's a question of "enough".

Sure, there are loads shown in the book even for the lighter bullets that require significant compression to get the listed charge in the case.

Also, there are loads that fit it all in there much better. As I recall AA2230, for example, enabled real velocity without big crunch on the powder, and 4198 too. As a practical matter, all the powders that I have tried, do not have to run at the top end of the pressure levels the cartridge is capable of. So, with RL7 and H4895, for example, I'm not loading the max charge shown allowable by the book, but just enough to compress a little, which keeps the bullet from setting back. With H4895, I reduce the load even further for use of the 300gr SOCOM Barnes bullet, since it's designed for a MV of about 1800fps. I push them faster than that, but it's still a mild load, and fun to shoot.

For significantly reduced loads I'm using SR4759 (1200-1500 fps) and for subsonic loads, and cast bullets, I've been using Trail Boss.

BTW, I read that you are not supposed to compress Trail Boss at all, and I don't.

My 458WM has a non-standard short throat. It's basically a 45-70 throat ahead of a standard 458WM chamber. I can't seat the bullets out, and can't use 500gr bullets. I intended it that way. I asked the gunsmith to cut the throat so it will be close to the ogive of short .458 cal bullets such as this one:



Just for the situation that my nephew or someone I care about inherits this rifle, I had the gunsmith stamp the barrel appropriately.



It wasn't easy to make the decision to go with a non-standard throat, but I figured that it had been serving well in the 45-70 for over a hundred years, and if I didn't like it, I could have it re-cut. I'm very happy with the chamber and throat. As I understand it, the extra long SAAMI throat of the std 458WM is to allow for the long bullets, and heat of the tropics, and with the sacrifice of some accuracy, since it's a short range cartridge anyway. My use for the cartridge is different from all that. It for use in a cool northern climate, mid-weight bullets, and I'm interested in accuracy, and handload exclusively for it.

KB

quote:

Kabluewy

Is that the 300gr Barnes TTSX (Tac-X) for the 458 SOCOM? How fast you pushing them?

Kabluewy -

You're cheating!!!

You use common sense, logic, and make your rifles to be used in the way you actually want to use them! NO FAIR!!!

Actually, I admire what you have done and why you have done it. I certainly agree with you and the others here who have attested to the versatiliy of the .458 Win.

I also support those now and in the past who have altered it slightly to fit their own wants and needs.

I used to have a friend here in Phoenix who specifically built his own .458s on Springfield '03 actions, in Mannlicher-stocked carbine form, with long throats, for one purpose which he thought was great fun. He hunted Kaibab mule deer with them using 500 grain bullets.

"Why on earth...?" you say. Because he intentionally passed on the deer he saw unless they were standing in a position where he could shoot THROUGH a tree and nail them anyway. He loved to show new guys in camp that trick. Yeh, a bit cuckoo, but no more nuts than the rest of us gun folk probably.

Myself, I changed my first one into a .458 Ackley Mag. Got the same velocity with 500 grain bullets as my .450 3-1/4" Nitro DR, without having to compress powder as in other .458 Winnies, and had a nice shoulder which looked sexy as Hell. Also gave it something in addition to the belt to headspace on as was the "in" fad at the time.

Haven't done anything to my current one, which has a SAAMI spec chamber, but like you, it is my .45-70 +P surrogate.

They are both great guns for fun, and great guns for killing things...even through the middle of a tree.

quote:

Originally posted by Hizzie:
Kabluewy
Is that the 300gr Barnes TTSX (Tac-X) for the 458 SOCOM? How fast you pushing them?

Yes, that's the Barnes SOCOM bullet. My notes show that I've tried only H4895 with that bullet, and 60grs gives 2000fps. Very accurate. I've used more powder, but the 60gr load was best accuracy. The tests were very limited. There's lots of different powder that will work, and I'm sure I could push them really fast, maybe up to 2500fps, but I see no need yet.

One need or use that I can think of is for a spring black bear hunt. I'm planning on a bait station with a friend who has a jet boat. There is a high probability of a brown bear taking over the bait, in which case something with real thump may be called for.

So, I'm still a bit undecided on the load of choice. I have some 350gr Barnes, which shoot accurately. I have tried all the standard powders, and I can get all the velocity I want with any of them. I think maybe AA2230 will be tops. Anyway, it's enough. I have the hunch that bullet at top velocity will pretty much mess up the insides of even the biggest bear, from pretty much any angle.

Another top choice for thump is the 400gr Swift. It's a real killer, and I've tried close to full loads with it, and judging from the recoil, it just has to be producing thump. I may just have to go with it, since I consider it as close to a sure thing as I can get. I shot a big moose years ago with a 400 gr bear claw bullet, and it exited. I have little doubt that the 400gr Swift will exit too on moose or bear, broadside, through bone and all. It may not exit with angles other than broadside.

The choices are tougher than it should be. I really want to see what the 350gr TSX will do. It ought to be a real killer on black bear, at any reasonable range.

The 300gr SOCOM bullet may be enough, but it is designed to open up at 1800fps or less. I doubt that it will come apart if driven faster, but penetration may be an issue on the really big stuff like brown bear. Until I know what the bullet will really do for such task, I would rather play it on the safer side, and use a heavier bullet. My intuition says to me that the 300gr SOCOM bullet will work great on black bear and moose, but I think that bullet will open up full mushroom rather easily, which logically will inhibit penetration. But of course there is the primise that as long as it penetrates enough, then expending all its energy inside the critter is most desirable. It's a bit theoritical, so I tend to default to something a bit more of a sure thing if I'm planning on pokeing a hole in a brownie.

I also think taking a black bear with the 300gr SOCOM, driven fast, would be a good test. I'm sure it will do the job, and depending on the damage, and whether it exits or not will tell me more about what to expect from shooting a brown bear with it.

KB

I've gone with the 480grn bullets the Woodleigh make especially for the 458Win and find its not hard to achieve 2150fps. Whether or not it has 100% load density I'm not quite sure but I do know that it shows no indication of excessive pressure and am happy with the fact that the 480grn bullets at that speed are duplicating the classic 450NE loads that produced such a good name for its self amongst DG hunters.

quote:

Going to a 450 gr. bullet in the 458 win is not the answer, you lose valueble sectional density and penetratiton is of utmost importance IMO with any big bore..I would always take a 458 cal.500 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS over a 400 or 450 gr. bullet as is often quoted on these blogs at 2300 FPS or there abouts..I still like two holes..

Extremely "Dated" or might I say, "Outdated" statement. A proper 450 Solid, North Fork, BBW#13, Barnes Banded FN, all have more than enough straight line penetration to accomplish ANY and ALL missions required of them at proper DG velocities, from 2000 to 2400 fps. Most standard 458 Winchesters will run these bullets from 2250 to 2300 fps depending on 22 to 24 inches of barrel. These bullets will shoot through elephant, hippo, and buffalo like butter! I know, I have done it. Just this past June my little 458 B&M and a 450 BBW#13 burned completely through hippo broadside heart and kept on digging. Busted through buffalo from several angles, none have been recovered. I have been on the scene and watched 450 Barnes banded in 458 Winchester exit head shots frontal and side on elephant. These bullets will penetrate deeper, and far straighter than anything in the 500 gr category, other than another FN North Fork, Barnes, or BBW#13 that weights 500 grs!

Again, the "Outdated" statement about compression of some of the loads? So what? And the point is What? Back in the early 60s when the 458 Winchester was yet a child, Winchester used a ball powder, and probably some faulty loading practices, and in the early 60s--- (50 Years Ago) powders had not advanced to the point they are NOW-- (50 Years Later). As stated, I have and do use many many compressed loads, extreme weather from -30 F to over 115 F and guess what? Never an issue, not once, not ever, NEVER. Powder today is better than it has ever been, and the chemistry continues to improve.

KB has found many ways in which to work with 458 and is very correct on his bullet choices for his purposes. I have used the 400 Swift extensively in the field some years ago when I was shooting 458 Winchester. It was superb then, and hammered everything in it's path. Easy to shoot as well. I used a 22 inch 458, 70 gr of RL 7, for a steady 2325 fps, lions, plains game, and even shot a buffalo with one, although a 400 Conventional bullet is a little light for buffalo, notice I said "Conventional". While I have not used the 350 Barnes TSX in the field, I was going to take it to Russia for bear in one of my 458 B&Ms a couple of years ago, but the trip got canceled, and did not make it on the hunt itself. I am quite sure it would have hammered! And if I were to choose a more conventional today for those duties, it would be the 350 TSX.

458 is versatile, perhaps one of the most versatile cartridges, calibers, ever.

Michael

Just two weeks ago a friend of mine layed a smackdown on a cape buffalo with a 458 WM and 450 gr TTSXs and 450 gr Banded solids, both running 2150 fps. It was very effective and had awesome penetration. I video'd it, so thats a first hand observation. He also used the same combo on white bearded wildebeeste and grants gazelle. How's that for versatile?

I understand all Mod 70 pre 64s and most mod 70s produced later on were all the same lengh and that means 375 length, but not magnum length such as the big Mauser mod 20..

As to the use of light bullets I have seen the 400 and 450 monolithics at work and penetration does suffer and whoever thinks it does not is wrong, when you send those light bullets at faster speeds they meet with more resistants from flesh and bone and lapped over rib cages than the big slow heavy 500 gr. bullets at less velocity, and I am talking about buffalo, Hippo, and elephant..I don't surmise or draw this conclusion from therory, magazine articles or penetration tests in boxes, but on actual field experience as I am the ultimate bullet digger and I get down and dirty looking for thoes bullets. In my seveal shoe boxes of recovered bullets I only have about two .458 500 gr. bullets, the rest probably landed in Dar es Salaam or Arusha.

In a 45 caliber the 500 gr. bullet will give you the most penetration, period, end of story. In some high velocity non magnums this is not the case but you cannot apply this to the big bores..

I have only seen a few instances wherein a 400gr or 450 gr. monolithic made two holes in a buffalo, but any bullet will from time to time under the right set of circumstances will give you a pass thru..A 500 gr. will make two holes 98% of the time, and a solid always will..I am not much a 458 fan but I know the caliber has as much penetration as ANY caliber with softs or solids with a 500 gr. bullet and that has historically been its salvation and those big 45 caliber holes bring lots of blood and the caliber is a killer, it simply has a tremoundous amount of SD with the 500 gr. bullet.

I have no problem with the 458 Win. and have made a pretty damn good case for it and 500 gr. bullets, and be clear and don't misquote me as many have done on the subject, but I shoot it at 2000-2025 FPS with 500 gr. bullets on DG, and it works, my loads are close to 95% plus load density but leave me enough space to be workable so far....

All that said, my preference is and always will be a 458 Lott loaded to 2100-2150 FPS, at extremely mild pressure.. I will argue the point til hell freezes over, its the better option, and I can still shoot 458 Win ammo in it..How can you argue with this kind of logic!!

I too have become a fan of the lighter weight Swifts and was using 450 A-Frames loaded by Norma when I had to sort this one out.
it doesn't matter who has the most faddish or up-to-date cartridge ---- it is the bullet that does all the killing and with todays loads and powders the 458 Win easily gives the 2150fps with 500 gr bullets that Jack Lott claimed was his goal with the 458 Lott. And with the best of todays bullets one can easliy get by on most game with lighter bullet.

quote:

I have only seen a few instances wherein a 400gr or 450 gr. monolithic made two holes in a buffalo, but any bullet will from time to time under the right set of circumstances will give you a pass thru..A 500 gr. will make two holes 98% of the time, and a solid always will..I am not much a 458 fan but I know the caliber has as much penetration as ANY caliber with softs or solids with a 500 gr. bullet and that has historically been its salvation and those big 45 caliber holes bring lots of blood and the caliber is a killer, it simply has a tremoundous amount of SD with the 500 gr. bullet.

I have NOT been able to recover a 450 gr NF FPS going 2250 from a buff yet.

When I had my 458 built, I had one bullet in mind that it must shoot well. That bullet is the 400gr Swift. I sent dummy rounds to the gunsmith so he could cut the throat just long enough for that specific bullet to be close to the lands. As it turned out, the standard 45-70 throat is what he did. Naturally that throat will work with many great bullets offered. The 400 Speer and 405 Rem are great low velocity plinkers, but way too soft to load faster than about 1500-1700 fps, IMO. I like the low cost of the Hornady 350grs, and I suspect thay will hold together well.

Swift and Northfork make bonded 350gr bullets which I am confident in, especially the Northfork softnose 350gr.

From the looks of the 400gr Northfork ogive slope it appears that it too will work for me. I just haven't bought any due to the cost, and the Swifts are less expensive, plus I have Swifts on the shelf already.

It looks to me like the 450gr Swift or Northfork may have the ogive set too far forward and may jam into the lands, seated normally.

Regarding recoil - I don't see how the 458 with anything close to full charges of powder could be considered mild. My rifle is relatively light weight because I wanted it short and handy. 20" barrel, with 20" twist rate. I started with a std Hogue stock with the pillar aluminum posts. Recently I set it in another Hogue, which has the full aluminum insert, which added a little better balance up front, plus the security of dispersing the recoil. That small recoil lug on the Ruger receiver is of some concern, but I'm reasonably sure the Hogue full aluminum insert embedded in there will handle it. To give perspective on recoil, I had a 1x4 Leupold VXII shotgun scope mounted, and after perhaps 20 rounds of stiff loads, the insides came loose, and the lenses misaligned, if not broke. I sent it back to Leupold and they fixed it, but I've been reluctant to reinstall it, since I figure it will just break again. So I had some good iron sights installed. Recently I ordered a 3X form Leupold custom shop. I think that will hold up.

Another indicator of the recoil is that the sheet metal magazine box began to buldge out in front, and of course the tips of the lead bullets were always mashed. I ordered another box from Ruger, the one they showed as a part for the 416 Ruger. I hope it holds up. It fit perfectly, actually better than the original. Also, regarding the annealing issue, I use a Lee factory crimp so I can get the best and stoutist crimp available. It's still not enough with some loads, when using Winchester brass. The recoil will defeat the crimp and drive the bullet back into the case, if the powder is not compressed. I think the Winchested brass is too soft at the mouth, right out of the box, and the reason I say that is because the Hornady brass worked correctly right out of the box, and the crimp held.

So, basically everything is working correctly. I just have to discover the things to not do. I tried 75grs of AA2230 and the Swift 400gr which seemed to be a good combo for my heaviest load. I estimate the magic 2300 fps with that load. I didn't shoot it with the scope attached, but with the iron sights, at 25yds, it hit right on to where I was aiming. I use the scope with the lighter loads.

Here are some pictures to entertain you. The rifle has evolved. First it was bare metal, and no sights, then I put sights on it, and had it coated, and got another stock.

Sectional Density is relative.

a 450gr .458 bullets has the same sectional density as 300 gr .375 bullets.

With monometal bullets giving up 50 grains of bullets weight is going to be irrelevant.

Mike -

It may be that the 300 grain .375 bullet has the same sectional density as the 500 grain .458 bullet.

In my experience, however, pentration on thick skinned, heavy boned, animals seems to be not just a matter of sectional density, but a result of the combination of sectional density with momentum.

I am not saying the .375 300 grain bullets don't penetrate as well as the 500 grain .458s, just that I KNOW the .458 heavies pentrate dependably and very well, from experience. And part of that I credit to their sectional density AND momentum being fully adequate.

Maybe I'm all wet on this one, but that's the way my experince seems to lead me so far.

I know the 500 gr. 458 will outpenetrate about any caliber, even the 300 gr. 338, or the 300 gr. 375. Finn Aagard wrote of this many years ago and my experience, although I doubted it at the time, proved him to be correct, at least on buffalo.

Here's a link to an interesting discussion:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...s.php/topics/2893180

It also has a link embedded of a Kodiak bear getting a deer.

KB

The 458 load density with a 450 gr. bullet show about two loads that have a load density of less than 100%..71.5 grs. of H335 at 98% and 66 grs of RL-7 at 90% both of which give you about 2200 to 2250 FPS...Apparantly the rest give you in excess of 100%..for what its worth.

The 450 shows SD of 307, and the 500 shows .341. 307 is an acceptable SD however
SD, although a good guide, does not tell the whole story, mass and that long base are also a part. some here claim pass thrus with the 400 and 450s and I am sure any bullet under the right circumstances will do that, even a 30-06 is capable of a pass thu..but it has not been my personal experience wiht light bullets in the .458

My opinnion dated or not, is based on what I personally have seen from actual kills in the game fields, not from balistic charts etc, and right or wrong it is what I believe based on that experience..If one has had a different experience then I can understand that, and whatever works for you is your best bet..

I would suggest the 450 gr. bullet would perform wonders on Alaskan Bear and Moose and would be an excellent choice. these animals are thin skinned and the rib cages do not lap over...Buffalo and Hippo have a lot of bullet proof protection over most any other animal on earth. If one likes a bullet to dump all its energy inside an animal the again the 450s probably are for you..That concept is without merit as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not the last word on the subject and am only passing on my opinnion..I have a lot of dated friends in Africa btw and at my age everything is dated.

Ray,

Both Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor used and recommended compressed loads in various rifle calibers. If they didn't worry about it, why do you?

465H&H