Gentlemen,

I'm considering ordering a new M70 Safari Express 416Rem. I had quality control issues w/ recent Winchester rifles, a 94 Timber and a M70 Supergrade. Both gave me trouble but are now corrected. At this point, I'm a bit shy forking the bucks sight unseen. So, can anyone offer me some input on the current or recent production Safari Express Rifles. Any input good or bad will be appreciated.

Thanks!

I have 2 of them both in 416. One is in the classifieds for $850 with talley rings and sights and 15 rounds of factory federal trophy bonded solids if you are interested. my personal one I have put NECG sights on it and had the trigger pull lightened and had a gunsmith go through and make sure it feeds well. Otherwise I love it. You will most likely need to do some work to any factory rifle you buy.

Andy,

Were the sight and scope mount holes lined up proper and drilled straight? Fit and finish okay? Is the factory stock serviceable for iron sight use?

Thanks for the offer but if I order one it will be at cost.

Gary

My Safari Express in .375 H&H is a good rifle.
I haven't had anything done to it.

I had the older 416 and rusty has the newest one. Both are great guns. I liked rusty's stock better... far better.

His feeds just great, but i still have to complain about the QC on the barrel recoil lug. Rusty might have forgot this part, It was 10-12degrees off transverse.. but USRAC fixed it.

If you are concerned about the winchester QC, and the additional funds it COULD (not would,but might) cost to get it right, buy the ruger. Seriously, it WILL feed, it will function, and you can have it in 416 rigby (to match your 416) or 458lott, to beat all the big bores in affordability to shoot.

Before you ask, they remington, rigby, and lott can all be loaded to the same recoil levels, and if you don't reload, you will before the first week is up and you have bought the secound box of ammo
jeffe

Jeffe,
I spoke with Tip Burns about the second lug on the Safari Express and it seems that the angled lug seems to be the norm. Too bad!

I have one in .375 H&H and it has been nothing but a pain in the ass since day one. It shoots groups in the 2" - 2 1/2" range usually.

I feel that the barrel is mounted pointing down as I had to shim the rear base to get it zeroed and I had to replace the front sight with one that was .060" shorter.

It feeds find, except from the shoulder, which isn't acceptable in the long run.

It has been bedded, but I guess it is just going to take more than that to fix it to what I think it ought to be...

If this one didn't come from my wife, I'd have dumped it along time ago.

Odds are a M70 will be better out of the box than a CZ. Or an old Whitworth. CZ's and Whitworths get praised here and M70's get bashed. I don't understand it.

Jeffe and others,

I purchased an M77Mk2 338WM to convert to 458WM or 416Taylor. I decided on the Taylor. I've got the rifle, most of the parts I need and money set aside for the barrel. Well I screwed up and shot some 250gr Noslers down the 338 barrel. She is sweet box stock w/ potential. So there goes the rifle for my 416Taylor project.

Back to square one. I decided to look at the 416Remington. CZ and Ruger are chambered Rigby while the Winchester is chambered Remington. The Rigby is an expensive proposition to shoot factory ammo or handload. Most of the prices I checked were 5x the cost of 416Rem brass. Also, the suppliers of brass and ammo are limited w/ the Rigby while sources for the Remington are numerous.

The last Winchester express I used/handled was several years ago. It was 458wm, 22" barrel and had a stock that was not the best for iron sights. I noticed that the new Winchesters have 24" barrels and a "new" stock design so the one I am familiar w/ must be older.

The two recent Winchesters that I mention having QC issues were pretty bad. Not that it was minor things like an unsightly gap or bugered screws. I'm talking machine work issued that were almost uncorrectable w/ out replacement. The flip side, once corrected both are now treasures.

Any additional info that anyone can add will be helpful. I'm on the fence at the moment but am prepared to make this purchase w/ in the next couple of weeks.

Gary

Bad Winchesters, Rugers, and most factory rifles are the exceptions rather than the rule, but todays quality control and cheap production methods applied by the friggen bean counters have made it possible for grimmlens to lurk in the dark corners or the manufacturers halls..

I would say Winchester is as good as any production rifle...

Most factory guns need "tweeking", a good word that came about on AR........

Have a good tweeking day!

Gentlemen,

Update, I inspected two factory new boxed rifles, an M70 Safari Express and a CZ "American" Safari.

M70 - The overal fit and finish was excellent. All visible machine work appeared well done and the barrel had one of the better crowns I've seen on a production rifle. The rear sights were the same as those imported by NECG. The front sights appeared to be either NECG or Williams. The action fed smoothly. The only issue I had w/ this rifle was the height of the comb. I cannot comfortably get down to the iron sights. The rifle naturally shoulders for scope use but is no good for iron sights.

Does anyone see a problem w/ removing some wood lowering the comb on this stock?

CZ "American" - This is very sad. I've posted before that I've noticed that the "American" models appeared to be of poorer quality than the "European Lux" models. Well this particular "American" Safari that I inspected was the absolute worst I've ever seen. It is not in the same league as the two CZ "Lux" Safari rifles that I own. The stock wood quality is bottom of the barrel. I hate to call it checkering, but whatever you call it is unbelievably bad. The stock looks as if inletted by a jigsaw. The inletting of the barrel channel does not even match the barrel contour/profile. The barrel does not have a crown. The barrel is cut at 90 degrees and it appears that the outer edge was rounded by a bench grinder then polished. It is so out of round that it gives the appearance that the bore is off center. The action binded badly and would not feed. The test targets were missing so I have no idea how well it shoots. I cannot for the life of me see how CZ could have done such an outstanding job on my two European models yet allow such rubbish to get out of the factory.

I wish I could have located a new European model to compare but none were found.

I think at this point I'm leaning towards the Winchester, provided I am certain I could reshape the stock for iron sight use.

Gary

quote:

I wish I could have located a new European model to compare but none were found.

Griffin & Howe shows to have a CZ Safari Magnum (non American) in .416 Rigby at 99% condition. They are asking $800. I know it is not the same as being able to handle it in person.

I bought 3 375's an a 416 for a recent trip. All were new, all were tweaked by a gunsmith. All performed very well on buff and others. I like the M70 and would likely use them again even if I had the choice of a pre-64 or Dakota.

Dogcat,
I just bought a Safari Express .416. What sort of tweaks did you have performed? Are you using a scope on the 416? If so, which scope and rings?
Thanks.
Marc

dogcat and MarcF,

What are your thoughts of the stock profile on your rifles for iron sight use?

The one I handled would need reshaping for me to use an express rear sight. If a Brockman/Talley base w/ the pop up peep and a corresponding taller front blade were used, I may be able to get by w/ the stock as is though. Then it would be quick and convenient to mount a scope if so desired.

Opinions?

quote:

Marc_Stokeld
one of us
Posted 20 July 2005 19:23
Odds are a M70 will be better out of the box than a CZ. Or an old Whitworth. CZ's and Whitworths get praised here and M70's get bashed. I don't understand it.

Ya be damned careful of them whits. You wouldnt want 4 holes looking like this at the 100 meter

GaryVA,
The rifle lines up nicely with the existing iron sites for my body and face type.(200lbs@5'11"). The problem for me is that it takes awhile for my aging eyes to acquire the rear site. I am going to look at the Brockman push down peep or an XO peep, but will use a scope for my primary visual aid. I like the rifle and recently sold my 416 Weatherby because I felt I needed something I thought was more suitable as a DGR. At some point I may restock and add a Sunny Hill drop box.
Good luck with your search. Part of the fun is mulling over the variety of options.
Marc

Marc_Stokeld

On your post dated 20 July 2005 You stated:
Odds are a M70 will be better out of the box than a CZ, or an old Whitworth.

Now I admit that I haven't owned any of the newer Winchesters since they finally went back to CRF, and I certainly hope that they are better than the JUNK Winchester was making after 64. I have owned a few Pre 64 Winchesters, and I can truthly say that none of them were tack drivers. They were satisfactory for hunting rifles and that is what they were built to do.

As for CZ's, I have no experience. I have read several articles that they were becoming very shody and needed work before they could be used on dangerious game. I have read that the stocks were in need of cross bolts and bedding and that feeding was sometimes a problem.

Now, when it comes to the Brno ZKK 600, 601, and 602 series of rifles I can speak from experience. I own several of these rifles and feel that their is no better commercial mauser made. I have also never seen any write up's that had complaints on these rifles. They are highly praised in "Bolt Action Rifles".

I have also owned several Whitwort rifles made in Manchester England and every one of them has functioned perfectly, and everyone that I have owned shot better than MOA at 100 yards. In fact, I presently have one in 7x57 with a factory mannlicher stock that will shoot 1/2 MOA groups at 100 yards all day long. I might also add that all my shooting is with factory ammo. The 7x57 I just mentioned shoots it's groups with standard Winchester 145 GR. ammo.

Maybe I have just been lucky with the Whitworth's, but I real don't believe this to be true. Every Whitworth I have owned has been an excellent rifle of the highest quality for a factory gun. In fact, I have owned some custom rifles that cost thousands of dollars more that were not as accurate as the Whitworth rifles I have owned.

These are my experiences and just wanted to share them.

Thank you one and all.

Mauser Rifle

Spent a king's randsom trying to get a 416 Win.
to feed and eject.Let me down big time on my last trip to Zim.Sold the piece of shit and bought a CZ in 416 Rigby-needs a bit of finishing but a good rifle when the work is done.The Win.stayed a piece of shit despite the money.