ZD,

Here I was thinking you knew your stuff. That pic has totally destroyed my confidence in you.

Is that one of them Euro eyebrow-busting scopes?

Bill - Euro scopes are nothing to be scared of. One of these days I�ll teach you how to shoot a big bore and not get smacked by the scope, and you tech me how to bag an ele - I�ll teach you for free, if you teach me for free...

Zero Drift -- wow, that rifle's beautiful!

Eric - I can only afford to feed the family and take them hunting. I am not so sure I can afford a new member...

Here is the whole Dakota family...







George, I use little cotton balls with lots of black electrician�s tape. You never draw blood, but you can knock your eyeball out of its socket...



Actually all the Swaro�s have a spring loaded ocular to protect your brow. Nothing is worse than the knife edge on the Leupolds. They must have a guy on the line who�s job is to sharpen those bastards...

ZD,

I'll have to admit those are cute rifles. How do you decide which one to use?

P.S. Even cuter w/o those scopes!

The Cool Guy,

I have no experience with the 416 Dakota, but I have mountains of it with the 416 Rigby.

I have yet to find a 416 Rigby case with 132.6 grains of case capacity all mine have ranged between about 126.5 and 129.5 grains of water.

My standard hungting load is 104 grains of IMR 4350, a CCI 250 primer, Norma brass, and a 350 gr Speer for a muzzle velocity of 2785 fps. A slight reduction in accuracy is provided by 106 grains of IMR4350, but the muzzle velocity jumps to 2822 fps with the 350 grain Speer. Another excellent load (in my rifle)is, 109.6 grains of IMR4350, CCI 250 primer, Norma brass and a 340 grain Woodleigh PP for a muzzle velocity of 2870 fps. These chronographed velocities and my rifle has a 24" barrel. I hunt with the Speer, primarily because it is half the cost of the Woodleigh and works fine! Tried some Barnes "X" bullets, but my rifle only liked them when I slowed them down to 2650 - 2700 fps and their effect on game sucked (they literally punched cookie cutter 0.416" diameter holes in the bull elk). So I shalt be using the Barnes again.

Essentially, the 416 Rigby can duplicate the external ballistics of the 30-06, but with twice the energy on target. It is an excellent elk rifle!!

The 416 Rigby will safely shoot 400 grain pills to 2700 fps, NO PROBLEM.

Neither the Dakota or the Remington are going to keep up with the Rigby. That is fact. Is the extra velocity necessary, I don't think so for dangerous game due to the typical ranges to target experienced there. In fact, at less than 100 yards these higher velocities may in fact be detrimental! If however, you use the Rigby for elk, like I do, then the extra velocity is what it is all about.

ASS_CLOWN

Bill, it�s worse than that. These guys have a bunch of illegitimate brothers and then there are all the cousins and uncles. It�s difficult to know who to pay attention to, but just between you and me, I have my favorites.

Jeffery, I don�t know about your medical system, however, one emergency room visit here to get stitched up and you just bought three, maybe four Swarovski scopes.

First of all we have free medical care in Denmark (Sweden Norway, Germany well Europe for that matter) The down side is a 50% income tax
I did not need to get stitched up. In fact you can do a better job with the right bandaid If you know how to do it.
I might get a rubber thing to put on the Leupold to start with.
Mostly I shoot open sights but would like to shoot a zebra and other big game with the .500 Jeffery. And the scope is a nice help when making 200 Meters shots.
I lke the recticle on the Leupld scopes and especialy the fact that the recticle does not grow when magnification is used.

I would very much like is Zeiss and Swarowski made that option on their small scopes.

Cheers,

Andr�

I got cut twice by my Leupold VariIII 1,5-5 ILL (on my .500 Jeffery) and are considering mounting a Swarowski 1,25X4 instead I like that feature with the spring loaded ocular.
I just like the price o the Leupold better, and domot feel that the swarowski is twice as good

Cheers,

Andr�

Jeffery - You can get Swarovski in either first plane or second plane reticles depending upon the model. I do not like first image plane reticles either...

Zero Drift

It is just so unlogigcal you want to make a long shot and the recticle gets bigger and blockes the target

Can I get the 1,25-4 ill. and not have that feature ?

Cheers,

Andr�

Here is its twin in .450 Dakota (It also has two brothers in .330 Dakota and 7mm Dakota)

No foul intended, but funny enough, a gunsmith once told me that he didn't keep a Dakota in the safe very long for fear they would reproduce.

Chuck

Zero Drift,
Nice family of rifles indeed. If any of the bastards are getting in the way, send them to me and I will adopt them.

JefferyDenmark,
A first focal plane reticle is indeed bassackwards except for a mil dot reticle where it makes the mil dots true at all power settings.

I have owned one each of new Schmidt&Bender, Swarovski, and Zeiss scopes, but have concluded that they are inferior to Leupold for my purposes, except for the mil dot thing which Leupold can't get right and S&B does get right. But I rarely need a mil dot scope.

My forehead has no scars ... yet! (knock wood)

Chuck,
That is funny. I guess Dakotas do tend to grow on ya. Start with one small bore, and soon a larger bore shows up in the safe.

Please explain the difference between a 416 Remington and a 416 Rigby; and, how that difference equates to actual hunting conditions. Simple terms would be appreciated.

size of the action (weight and bolt throw)
Pressure (the rigby is less)
rounds "down" (the rem allows for more, aebe)
Nostalgia (hard to define)
POTENTIAL higher MV (rigby)

the same apply to the 416 weatherby,

jeffe

From the standpoint of exterior ballistics, zilch. The Rigby requires a Magnum action(longer) and operates at lower pressures. It is, in my opinion, a better round for hot climates.

This was discussed about three weeks ago. For more opinions and information, see '.416 Rigby or Remington- the differences'

George

From the animals point of view . . . nothing!

This has been discussed every three weeks for the last two years.



It was concluded that the Rem. is far, far superior to the Rigby!

I think this topic is the Big Bore forum equivalent to the African Big Game Hunting forum's 45-70 debate.

I still think the Rigby is better, because, well just because!

ASS_CLOWN

Will,
we'll concede you feel the rem is better. ... i don't agree.

jeffe

Will, PLEASE !

Geronimo

Remington, is for practicality. Easy to come by rifles, brass etc. Rigby is for nostalgia, Difficult to come by brass, more rifles now than ever but not in every store, expensive to feed. Ballistic twins. Nostalgia or practicality. I go with nostalgia. "D"

Rigby is for low pressure and a true 2400 fps.

Remington is for high pressure, stuck cases, and not reaching 2400 fps.

500grains,

I might offer that those are just slight exaggerations.

My 416 Rem. gets easy 2400 fps for 400 grain bullets and the cases do not stick. High pressure?...I don't know. But it goes bang which is the most important thing to me.

Maybe we should put it this way: One can just get 2400fps out of a .416 Remington with judicious reloading. However you can get 2450-2600fps from the Rigby without breaking a sweat, and from three or four different powders.

Geronimo

Geronomo,

Quote:

---

you can get 2450-2600fps from the Rigby without breaking a sweat, and from three or four different powders

---

This is a conservative statement, to put it mildly.

You can achieve a muzzle velocity of 2400+ fps with a 400 grain pill in the 416 Rigby with any powder from IMR3031 through IMR7828.

The 416 Remington is pushing the SAAMI pressure limits to achieve or very slightly exceed 2400 fps with a 400 grain pill. Of course you can load beyond the SAAMI pressure limits and beat 2400 fps easily (making up over 2450 fps I would imagine). Of course you are limited to literally three maybe four powders.

Just the facts.

If all you want is 2400 fps out of a 400 grain pill, either rifle will do. If you want more, then you need either a Rigby or the Weatherby.

ASS_CLOWN

If Africa hunting goes belly-up, I doubt you will be able to give away either of the 416's.



It just depends on what you want. With the .416 Rem., you have a better chance of a lighter rifle, intrinsically better feeding, and greater magazine capacity.



Obviously, one can push bullets alot faster from the Rigby, if that is what you want to do. And those Rigby cartridges are so cute.



I do not think one could go wrong with either one.



FWIW, here is what I did, eventually:



Mod. 70, .416 Rem.

Rebarreled to #4 contour.

Sunny Hill drop box (4 down).

NECG sights.

McMillan Safari stock.

Weight: 7.8 lbs.



Compared to a Lott, it is a powder puff to shoot. I love it.

Everyone has explained the differences between the two pretty thoroughly, and I suspect that in many ways the Rigby is the superior cartridge in terms in internal ballistics and potential terminal performance. The size of the cartridge itself and much more limited ammunition availability are its only real drawbacks in my opinion.

The .416 Remington is pretty much an enlarged version of the .375 H&H, and it's almost as easy to shoot. I don't think you need more than the 2400+fps it provides for any dangerous game hunting that you'd take on with a .416, but if I do want more punch, I'll go to a .458 Lott. It's often stated that since the .416 Remington operates at higher pressures it's more problematic in Africa, but I've never heard of an actual case where .416 Rem. pressures caused problems for anyone on safari. The cartridge is widely used and recommended by African PHs, so it can't be all that much of a problem child.

I currently have a .416 Remington that was built on a Model 70 action by D'Arcy Echols. It's trim and handy, has a five-round capacity, handles like a dream, and is incredibly accurate. It's one of my all-time favorite hunting rifles, and it's much easier and faster to work with than the various custom .416 Rigbys I've been around, and lighter to carry as well. For some reason, I have a fast barrel (24") on my rifle, and get about 2450 fps. with very reasonable pressures. I've heard of some rifles that have trouble breaking 2400 fps.

As much as I'm satisfied with the .416 Rem., one of my ambitions is to have a custom .416 Rigby built someday on a modern double square bridge Mauser action with a fine stock of French walnut, and the best set of traditional custom open sights that can be fabricated. I want it to be an open-sight only rifle -- no scope!

AD

Jeff,

I love these Rigby vs. Rem, posts!!

Like I said, it just depends on what one is after.

When you get old like me, 10 or 11 lb. rifles are just too much in the African sun. Even Bell and a bunch of other old-timers insisted on only using lightweight rifles. One of my first buffalos, when I was alot younger, was shot with a 7 lb. .375 H&H. It was like carrying a .22. But no, I had to have something bigger. I was just too dumb to quit while I was ahead.

I cannot explain it, but that McMillan stock, with a F990 pad, is relatively easy to shoot.

To each their own, which makes these posts so interesting.

Will,
in a way, it is like the 45/70 posts...

Butch told me, when I first got my 416 rem.. "everyone needs a varmit gun"... I didn't think it was funny then.. but after shooting my 500 and richard 577, and 470 and and and.. well, i see what he meant.


ah, well, there is a good thing about 416 rem actions... they are prety easily turned into 550 expresses!!

not that a 416 rigby couldnt become a 470 mbogo or 550 mag for the same effort

I used to like light rifles.. until a 416 cut my eye, TWICE.... and a 15 3/8lop is kinda hard to make look right with a 8# rifle



jeffe

I haven't found belted cartridges based upon the .375 H&H case to be problematic feeders. I've run into problemtatic GUNSMITHS, however, who could make anything feed properly.

AD

Jeff,



I should have added that I do not have or use a scope on my .416. And yes, there is always a possibility of getting cut with a big bore with a scope, even with a .375.



I have seen a lot of blood shed from using scopes on big bores, including my own. Hopefully one wises up after the first time.