I've been meaning to post this for some time but it always slipped my mind until now. last year i happened to have a 404Ne that i had just barreled up & a 500A2 in the shop at the same time. I saw this as an oppertunity to do a little test.

404Ne stiff load with 400gr woodliegh sp.
500A2 (owners hot loads) 570gr Barnes x bullet.

Target: Clay bank at 30 yards

Results: the 404Ne outpenatrated the 500A2 by a foot!

Doug,
That is interesting, but not a scientific test. Using similarly constructed bullets with similar sectional densities would have been more 'scientific'. But I bet it was fun, anyway!

George

No not much science involved. Just shot the ammo i had. The 500a2 sure did KICK a heck of a lot more than the 404 did.

Indeed, this means nothing, because bullet types, weights, and velocities were not fully specified.

One could make that contest come out either way by selecting the loads to compare in the same two rifles.

More specifics please, of the two loads you shot:
muzzle velocity
weight of bullet
bullet type
(range of bank from muzzle might help too)

I have a .404 Jeffery and a 500A2 and could do a test too.

Clay banks are often not uniform in consistency, and can include rocks, gravel, sand, soil, and such in varying amounts along the way. Not a meaningful test medium.

Not too surprising.

RIP here is a little penetration test.

Bullet #1
535 gr Woodleigh Soft points
MV - 2487 fps (avg)
Sectional Density - 0.294 (my favorite metric)
Diameter - 0.510"

Bullet #2
350 gr Speer Magtip
MV - 2795 fps (avg)
Sectional Density - 0.289 (theres my favorite metric again)
Diameter - 0.416"

Broadside penetration on elk ~ 17" clear through (bones and all).

Broadside penetration on bison NO BONES ~ 22" - clear through.

Broadside penetrqation on bison through shoulder bones ~ 22" - 535 penetrates clear through, the 350 gr is stopped.

Head-on shot at bison/buffalo head (skull penetration) - 535 gr between 24" and 28". The 350 gr makes it between 16" and 22".

Most IMPORTANT OBSERVATION, the 510" diameter bullets generated about 1.8 times the volume of traumatized (read jelled, bloodshot, etc) meat.


Of course that wasn't scientific because I was unable to resurrect any of the animals so that I could shoot the EXACT SAME ANIMAL in the EXACT SAME SPOT. Perhaps one day we will have a time machine so one can travel back in time and shoot the same animal over and over again with different components to evaluate, scientifically, the differences between them.

ASS_CLOWN

EDIT - the 350 gr Speers didn't retain as much weight as did the 535 gr Woodleighs. I strongly suspect that had a significant role in the penetration differential.

Humburger,
You broke their bloody hearts, stepped on their toes and now come from the woodwork scolding you in every way..A sinister thing you did, but the facts are that you are correct...also take note that a softy woodleigh out penitrated the holy grail, the Barnes X, blasphamy!

So does this prove that Woodleighs are better than Barnes X?

yep...

the 404 went in deepr, but the 500 a2 moved the bank back 2 feet

jeffe

Ray, AC & Jeffe . You guys kill me! I kinda just figured that it might have been because of that huge four leaf petal (right at 1" diameter) that the 1/2" x bullet made acted like an airbreak in the clay bank.

D Humbarger,

The 535 gr Woodleighs I shot (0.510" diameter) measured 1" to 1.062". The 350 gr Speers (.416 diameter) measured between 0.5" and 0.75". They did not do too well when they hit bone. I figured it was a bullet construction issue.

By the way, the 300 & 325 gr Barnes X bullets I have/seen recovered in .416 diameter were typically missing their pedals. They went through shoulder/leg bones, and that is how they ended up getting recovered. The measured between 0.416" and ~ 0.5".

ASS_CLOWN

In the real world of shooting buffalo, both the Woodleigh and the Barnes X do a good job and not a lot of difference in them..the Barnes X seem to penitrate a bit deeper but not by much..The Woodleigh has always proven its worth to me as one of the best bullets in the modern world, it typically breaks a shoulder on broadside shots and comes to rest on the off side skin and many times passes through, same with a Barnes X unless it blows off the petals then it will surly pass through on broadside shots.

On a serious note, I believe the 404 or 416 does penitrate a bit better than the 500s, but they are close enough as to not make any real difference and the 500 sure knocks a bigger bloodier hole and lets out more juice..Big dog sleeps on the poarch and the 500 is king there...

On the other hand I prefer the 404, simply from a recoil standpoint for field shooting which is a lot different from standing on your hind legs and shooting a target at the range on Sunday. It also weighs less and is easier to pack on a long track...

Bottom line is the 500 is the more powerful caliber about any way you cut it.

quote:

The Woodleigh has always proven its worth to me as one of the best bullets in the modern world,

Ray is the only guy here that can say this 'cause he's the only one that remembers the post-modern world.

Sorry Ray I couldn't resist and I'm only jealous 'cause I don't get to shoot all the Big Bores you do.
Ya gota admit that was funny though.

Shawn

quote:

Originally posted by bluetick:

quote:

The Woodleigh has always proven its worth to me as one of the best bullets in the modern world,

Ray is the only guy here that can say this 'cause he's the only one that remembers the post-modern world.

Sorry Ray I couldn't resist and I'm only jealous 'cause I don't get to shoot all the Big Bores you do.
Ya gota admit that was funny though.

Shawn

You mean Ray is the only one who remembers the pre-modern world.

OOPS. brain fart.

What really suprised me was that the 404 didn't jar my teeth out & it was just the barrel on a 1909 action fitted to a Mauser 1909 military stock (STEEL buttplate) with the forend cut short & the barrel channel hogged out to accept the 404 barrel. Recoil wasn't bad at all.

You guys do realize of course that the ONLY THING that will out penetrate a .404 Jeffery is a .405 Win followed-closely by a Buffalo Bore 45/70. Remember if you continue to drop the velocity it will penetrate better. !!!! My .600 OK has no penetration at all ,just bounces off Buff.-Rob

Rob,

Yes I do, that is specifically why I did not mention the repro Sharps 45-70 or the M1895 in 405 Win. That repro Sharps is the 'China Syndrome' rifle. The only thing that could come close to the 45-70 in the repro Sharps was the 50 Beowulf AR15!

ASS_CLOWN

I'm not suprised. I would like to know how much larger in dia the channel in the clay block was between the 404 and the 500 though.

I need to pull the big dogs out of the safe and sling some lead down range. I've let work interfere with fun for far too long.

Rip and Bluetick,
today at my age "getting lucky" is finding my truck in the parking lott..or remembering to take my Metamucil...

Robgunbuilder,
I am glad you and Ass Clown agree on so many things, thats cozy!

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
So does this prove that Woodleighs are better than Barnes X?

Yes

I can't afford Barnes Bullets

Based on these very scientific results I have deceided to drop the velocity of the 12 GaFH from my original misguided concept( 1000gr bullet at 3000 fps) to a 1000gr bullet at 150fps. I am now soaking oak chips in potassium nitrate solution to produce a slow enough burning powder to achieve my goal. I thought a primer alone might get me there, but alas the bullet would not clear the bore. While this is certainly moving in the right direction for the ultimate in penetration, nevertheless I'm fixated on the bullet simply needing to reach the target first. I'll report back on my load development efforts later.-Rob

OK Rob sounds like a deal to me!! What say you Ass Clown, I am sure you have already done this simplistic experiment and could save old Rob the gun builder a ton of brain waste!

Robgunbuilder!

Sorry Ray, but I haven't played with the 12 bore to that degree. The truth is I was terrified by it's potential at a measely 1480 fps! I dread to think what carnage Rob will be cutting loose with his 150 fps load! I hope gravity can stop it, as I fear that there may be no other force in the universe than can!



ASS_CLOWN

PS - Be careful Rob nothing on this planet may stop that slug once you have sent it upon it's way.

Might even cause the earth to bobble on its axis!

quote:

Might even cause the earth to bobble on its axis!

Damn straight about that! Rob should cease and desist at once, before he destroys us all.


ASS_CLOWN

Damn wood chips soaked in potassium nitrate burn too fast! Velocity is way too high! Inadequate penetration obtained to date! Just 15 to 25 feet in reference std sand bank! I'm gonna add some DRANO to the mix as a flame retardant.It also removes the stains on the toilet where I clean my BRASS! I use the CHICOM technique-Rob

Rob,
Try dried elephant dung. Very slow burning rate. That should limit your velocity enough to penetrate clear to China.

George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Rob,
Try dried elephant dung. Very slow burning rate. That should limit your velocity enough to penetrate clear to China.

George

asian or african?
wet or damp?
jeffe

african or european swallow?

Finger warm elephant dung is best, that means more is near if it works, makes reloading faster, and if its real hot, you can immediately make your own dung!