Hey AR forum members, jst back in from Argentina. Managed to tally-up 12,530 doves with a custom pair of Merkel 147 SL 20 bores...This in 4 days of shooting...Had 2 days of 4000 plus...Got sick one day and couldnt get much past 2000! Averaged 87.7% No great feat when compared to the guys who shoot autos, but not bad for a guy and his bird boy, drinkg some suds and smoking cigars!!!

Who says that Side By Side shotguns can't handle the Agentine high volume shooting!!!

Anybody else ever take a SxS to Argentina?

Highly recommended, but make sure to wear a glove on your barrel hand...I developed severe heat blisters!!!

Thought y'all would fined this somewhat interesting,

JW

Wow ! Don't you ever cool the barrels with water ? Any cleaning or lubing during the day ? It says a lot for Merkel !

12,530 at 87.7% equals 14,287 shells divided by 25 = 571 boxes @ 12USD = a shell bill of $6,857.

Please tell me there's something wrong with my math and that you did not spend as much on shells as my entire African Plains Game trip cost me, inlcuding airfare, daily rate, trophy fees, and AMMUNITION!

Damn but I'd bet that even with 20 gauge guns your shoulder must have taken a serious pounding!

That is impressive. 87%

Over 25 years ago on my 1st trip I took 2 beautiful light AYA SXS's --

That first day I had the leather barrel handguards smoking--
(probably just cooking the oil out of them)

the barrels on the guns were so hot that I was worried about separating the barrels or affecting the blue with the handguards.

(Perhaps I worried unnecessarily, but did not wish to risk the guns--
and my hands were uncomfortable (HOT) even with the shooting gloves)



The second trip I took 2 SBE's and shot more--
(I did not care if they were injured)

I don't remember getting above 2000 to 2500 shells a day--

you shot more than I did;--

You were definitely dedicated to the task.

Wow, I am duly impressed....several trips back I took my Garbi 20 s x s where and with whom were you hunting?

If you shot for 12 hrs each day that would be roughly 5 shots/minute no?

Wow!

Chris

Hi guys...Apologize for the delayed response, have been traveling (AGAIN!!!)

The little "Merks" held up fine, but did break an extractor on the mid-AM of day 3...My machine shop buddy is CNC'ing me up a 2 sets of Titanium extractors to test for next year.

As far as the protocol while shooting: I'd keep a small dripper bottle of Break Free in my bag and would from time to time put a few drops on the Greener style crossbolt to keep it operating smoothly. One of the guns actually wore-in and didn't require anything but ammo. I did frequently have to cool the barrels with H2O after the one gun went down...Could hear the barrels ping a bit, but sure did make it a lot more comfortable to shoot.

This pair of guns has 30" barrels, full-proof double triggers, choked .025 /.025 with an overbore diameter of .630 with the forcing cones let out. They have straight stocks @ 16" and splinter fore ends..BUT...

They are off to the stocker to get re-stocked with relaxed pistolgrips and extended Beavertails as the splinters caused a few nasty burns (through gloves and tape)...Then to Germany to be fitted with an extra set of 28 ga 30" barrels....This will give the guns more weight and move the point of inertia forward as well...They'll swing better, have less felt recoil and will point better after first shot due to reduced muzzle-flip (smaller shells, and more barrel weight).

These are the only SxS guns I have seen / used that seem to be up to the task...Not very pretty guns, but god-awfully tough and heavy...Perfect for the next challenge (6ooo in a day...THe current Double Gun record is 5112 in a day and was shot with an O/U 28 ga.) We're gonna try to beat that...Best to be done with a 28 as the 20s did wear on me a bit.

Of interest is the fact that over the years I have experimented with numerous SxS and O/U guns:

Model 21s: Took down a pair of real Winchesters / one 1966 and one 1973 mfg. Both broke ejector sears on the first AM (74 boxes), they also went to doubling from time to time...Fast loaders with the low-angle opening inherient of 21s, but not recommended for the serious stuff!....About 7500 rounds went through them between Bolivia and Paraguay...Was a looong trip plucking shells from the chambers with my thumbnails!!!

Browning Superposed Midas 20, 28, 410 / Traditional 20: These guns are great, but suffer from anemic ejectors and soft solder on the ribs...Interesting though that the little Midas 3 bbls set performed flawlessly, but didn't get the work-out the 30" 20 Traditional got...The 20 Trad. shot the side ribs loose inside of the fore end...Not a game-over scenario, but was annoying to hear them "twang" everytime I slammed the gun closed...It too would double frm time to time...I ran nearly 9000 rounds through the pair on that trip

Merkel 303EL...Aside from being slow to reload in comparison to a SxS, this is the best gun I have ever used for this game...Mine is a 20 bore, 27" bbls, .015 / .020, double triggers, pistolgrip stock...Never had a single issue with shells sticking in chambers, etc, etc...If I were not such a queer for SxS guns these beauties would be my ultimate choice...Absolutely bombproof with the strongest ejectors of any gun I've ever shot with the exception of the Blaser F3

CSMC RBL, 28: I own serioal number RBL28001....that's the first production gun from what I can tell...Might be as I bought it out of the booth at the 2008 SHOT show (it was their display model)...None the less, this little gun went nearly 3000 round without mishap (or cleaning)...She's a 30", choked M/F double triggers, Prince of Wales grip and a big fat beavertail with assisted-opening feature....Excellent little gun, but too light in the barrels for this game....Otherwise the most bang for the buck I've encountered in many years aside from the vaunted Browing BSS 20 bore (my all time favorite for the $$).

Krieghoff K-20 Pair, 20, 28, 410 bbls: These were going to be my "Ultimate" High volume guns. No-go...Ejectors are just to weak and the constant manual clearing of the chambers of spent hulls is a game-changer when you are getting into a shooting rhythm...absolutely excellent in every other aspect, but the greedy-shot don't like fidgiting with stuck hulls in his chambers! Highly recommended for guys that want low recoil (weight) and are not rabbid shooters...Most of my group shoots K-20s and love'em...I do too, but....

...side by Side guns are my sickness...

I hope this little report is of interest and of some value of some kind, to somebody...

JW

More power to ya--

You are definitely one tough Hombre-

I came back from both trips with fingers taped and hands sore (even with the SBE's)

Hopefully I'll get back down there someday--

but if I don't, I still have--

great memories of incredible days

Jeff:

I took a repro Parker 28 down there one time. It was fun, but I couldn't kill the long shots with it like I could with the 12 ga so I shot mostly my 101 and just used it for fun or a change of pace. My buddy and I shot it a fair amount with no problems, but I didn't keep a total, I'd say 4000 shells or less in 4 days.
Like I said, there were no problems with the Parker repro, but that total is not a real test of durability. I really appreciate your observations on the SxSs. Not nearly as tough as a 101 Winchester but obviously O/Us are superior. I've got a couple of 21s but haven't shot them in any volume. People in W Texas can afford it more than us poor old dirt ranchers in E Tx. Years ago, I hunted with a very knowledgeable shotgunner (now deceased) in Saskatchewan who said something to the effect that he could make any 21 double by tightening the back screw on the trigger. I may have it a bit wrong, it was about 25 years ago, but I recall the conversation, just not the specifics.

Who do you hunt with in Argentina?

I've been waiting patiently for Mike Dettore (Mr. Math ) and customstox to come on here and say that those totals are impossible, no one can shoot that much, etc. as they did when I posted relating to trap shooting and dove hunting in Argentina a year or so back.

quote:

I've been waiting patiently for Mike Dettore (Mr. Math ) and customstox to come

But if you did the math it does seem incredible

the 14, 287 shell (as speculated by Stonecreek) divided by 8 hours each day of shooting is 446 shots per hour or 7.44 shots per minute averaged each minute for 8 hours a day for 4 days. Given he only shot 2000 birds on one day, that raises the other days' average quite a bit.

Another person who's never been to Argentina heard from.......

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

I've been waiting patiently for Mike Dettore (Mr. Math ) and customstox to come

But if you did the math it does seem incredible

the 14, 287 shell (as speculated by Stonecreek) divided by 8 hours each day of shooting is 446 shots per hour or 7.44 shots per minute averaged each minute for 8 hours a day for 4 days. Given he only shot 2000 birds on one day, that raises the other days' average quite a bit.

7.44 shots per minute is one shot every eight seconds all day long. That would interfere substantially with my normal rate of beer drinking when I hunt doves.

Stonecreek:

Not really, you just shoot faster between beers ......in Argentina we used to play a game where we'd start with a loaded gun and see how fast we could shoot a Texas limit (15 birds), time starting with first report. My best time was 11 or 12 seconds. I can't recall if I had any doubles (2 with one shot) in there but probably at least one, you try to get one double on your first shot. Many of the really high bird counts you hear about are are shooting doubles and triples per shot, not everytime, of course. Personally except for the games mentioned I preferred longer tougher shots where doubles and triples (again, in this case meaning for one shot) were pretty rare. I asked for a tough spot one morning and it was, birds were coming off roost flying across a river and above a levee into our field, maize, I think. Of course, there were scads of birds and some were lower than others but the normal first shot was 40 yards or more high and not necessarily right over you, sometimes much more up and zipping. Really fun, I don't recall exact times but we started around 7 AM and I said,"that's it, stick a fork in me, I'm done" about 11. I killed 1050-something birds. Only reason I really recall was my two cousins who were along were hell on keeping a bird count. I also don't recall shell count (nor beer count, but beer count was probably at least 4 or 5, pest control is hard, hot work ), but my percentage was substantially lower than the above mentioned 87%. I say about 70% would be a good guess, so I probably shot in the neighborhood of 1500 shells in 4 hours, or about one every 10 seconds (a slower rate than the one above because I was shooting longer shots and passing on most of the closer in ones).

One time I was challenged to shoot 90% for a case of shells, I did, barely, shot 451 for a case and it was boring me to death. If you think about it, to shoot 90% you can't really take many tougher shots because if you miss one bird you have to kill 9 in a row to even it out. That was the first and last time I shot for percentages, I like tougher lower percentage shots by preference.

Another game was similar but longer, how many birds for a box of shells, timed. I don't recall bird count but the box of shells was usually shot in well under a minute (which was our time limit for that game) and to win you had to be above 20 birds.....so, even tho those were "speed" games, anyone who has been there can tell you that one shot every 8 seconds is not being in a hurry, but sort of taking your time.

In a relatively hot spot it is quite EASY to kill 300 birds an hour, or for you math types, one every 12 seconds, and that includes the inevitable misses. Now if you get to the 600/hour rate, someone is really humping or has a loader with more than one gun.

BTW all of the above times and bird kills mentioned were with a 12 ga Win 101 O/U, usually choked IC and IM. Unless they've got a loader, personally I can shoot a 101 about as fast as someone with an auto over a fair period of time because I can shoot and reload easier and faster than most auto shooters. I don't particularly like shooting gloves, so a piece of adhesive tape on your thumb where it contacts top lever is essential unless you've got a callus built up there.

The point of all of this, besides recalling really fun days shooting, is that if someone hasn't been to Argentina or, in their best spots, Uruguay, they can't IMAGINE the volume of birds available to shoot all day long (it does slow down in the middle of the day, but that is a relative term, it might only be one shot every 10 seconds). Hard to count, but probably in some of the bigger fields there may be a million birds or more.

very impresive lie, 12.530 doves

WTG Jeff!
For y'all that don't know him, Jeff is one of the finest guys, I had the pleasure of meeting.

I've gotta get my brothers and we need to go do this. As much as I like doubles, I'll be taking a Benelli, with a 1100 back up!

I think the real key to finding a good deal is best price with as much ammo included. An outfitters price per box runs the tab up in a hurry!

Jeff, Did you use an outfitter? Are there some names that anyone has used that you recommend?

I'd also like to hear your thoughts on the F3 Blaser.

Hey guys,

Been out traveling...Great stories and input on this thread.

We hunted (shot) with Zeke Hayes of H&H outfitters. Their booking agent is Trek Safaris.

Gatgordo, great stories and glad to hear your Parker Repro 28 held up - especially since I'm having a pair of PR 20s built up to give it a go down yonder next year. I'm scheduled for two trips, so I'll be taking the battle testeed Merkel 147 SLs and then the Parker Repros that we have gone through and attempted to engineer out any possible bugs that might come along.

Cliff, I like the F3 design quite well and have shot them a little bit. However, I don't know of anybody taking one to Argentina and putting it through it's paces just yet. My good buddy Rich Kaysa (for natn'l champ trap shooter) now runs Blaser USA and feels the guns are up to the task - I don't doubt his opinion. FWIW, everybody I know that shoots the F3s loves them - great triggers, strong well-timed ejectors and sound handling characteristics are just some of the positive accolades put forth by these amigos of mine - A few are starting to show up on the Live Bird circuit - that's a definate sign that these guns are for real.

Meanwhile I'm wish'n I was back down there putting it to'em, but hey it ain't all bad - September 1 is just around the corner - my 9 year old and our 2 Labs can hardly wait!!!!

JW

Man that is great! The next time I go - that is after I get the Namibia family trip done - I am going with Winchesters. But they are going to be Super X Model 1's. I cant hit much with those big flat barrels. If my Winchesters go tits up well I will just pick up their Berettas and go banging.

It was nice how you did not get wrapped into the folks that post that dont know any better. Way back the Model 12 I was using looked like it had been through a blast furnace - and that was on ducks and geese. BTW you guys that doubt this do know the record is somewhere around 10,000 or so for one day right? No I dont know how he did it, wasnt me, I wasnt there, I dont know the exact details. But if you go and shoot 1,500 in one day it is pretty likely that you wont be close to being the high man. I think one of the Miles told me the record was around 4,000 - in an afternoon . Them boys were burning some hulls - and had two loaders.

Yeah Sept 1 is here almost. We were just talking tonight about that. But 15 kind of pales to this. But fun and thanks for sharing this.

That's great information Jeff. Thanks, much. An F3 is on my radar...

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
...side by Side guns are my sickness...

Indeed Jeff!!! I'm totally with you!!!!! I almost bought a Merkel BLE SxS last year. Great gun. I ended up with the aged Francotte from my thread above, but that Merkel was a great gun. Great shooting if you're doing 87%. I grew up in Ohio and they opened up the first dove season while I was in my teens. After much shooting the best I did was 4 of 5 and that was doing something. I once spoke with the local game warden who mentioned the starting dove hunter averages 1 dove per box of shells. I'm not sure if that's correct, but after seeing how they fly.......and how people shoot........I can't believe that's too far from the truth. After September dove season ducks and geese looked like they were sitting still. Great report. Please post some pictures.

Brett

I go to argentina every year for the past 8 years. Right now I am 33 weight 90 kg and my height is 185cm. I am NOT a good shootgun shooter. My best half day( from 8 to 1430) non stop one loader on 12 gauge berettas(3) with gloves,ear protectors from 3mused in aviation, protecting glasses to avoid the burned powder and a recoil pad of latex was 2750 shells and 1037 birds recovered. I could have continued shooting but a big asado with cold Quilmes beer was waiting.
I must say after this I was quiet tired and I would doubt I could have paced this effort for three more days. after this I use to burn about 1500 shells a day ´cause I like to take it easy.
I learned this after having my right shoulder bleeding 3 days because I did not take one day my latex recoil pad the previous year.
This said I must say I believe that a hard, tough, well motivated guy may do what is said on this thread BUT he must be absolutely devoted to shooting and have a shoulder made of stone. I imagine the 20 gauge must help but... that much¿?
I have no doubt about the amount of continous doves flying. There are absolutely millions.
Even so "si non E vero e ben trovato"
If you really did it it would be a pleasure to shake your hand. You must be a titan.
Hope we meet one day and do some shooting together. I will take my 3 AYAS s&s and you may test them. they are great fun. With Argentina heavy shooting the woodstock breaks at the pistolet after about 2500 shoots. The extractors will pass over about 2000 shoots. Always the right one. apart from that no problems except they get really hot.

happy hunting

Diego,

I too am 185 cm and weigh in at 100 kilos...My previous profession has let me in good physical condition at 47 years...I practiced hard for this trip running 45 min - 1 hr. several days a week and doing a varied program of weights, push-ups & pull-ups and a ton of core training (I actually do this stuff anyway), but added swinging a 6 kilo weight rod like a shotgun a few evenings a week to build up shooting specific muscles...


...Yes, I have no life!!!!

Sincerest,

Jeff

Need help posting up photos...Very interesting stuff related to this thread...Thanks in advance,

JW

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
Need help posting up photos...Very interesting stuff related to this thread...Thanks in advance,

JW

Yes, Indeed, very interesting stuff! Please post pics, as I am in the planning stage of my first High-Volumn trip.

CamomanJ, We booked a trip in 2007 thru an outfit in Kerville. The trip was fantastic and I will book thru them again.
Let me know if you want the info.

Thanks, aliveincc, we'll be in touch.

Jeff, I am really impressed. I would love to have that kind of time to prepare myself physically. The iron rod sounds like a must so you don´t have to end up swinging the shotgun like a nurd as I had to do.I will use that tip to prepare my next argentinian trip. well done my friend I will get a "no life" like yours as soon as I can
Happy hunting

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
Need help posting up photos...Very interesting stuff related to this thread...Thanks in advance,

JW

You can email me the pics or I'll walk you through it. barringer_19@yahoo.com

Brett

wow, that's impressive, can't wait to go some day.

Jeff asked me to post these for him. He'll relate the significance.







Brett

It's a good thing that he is a better shot than a photographer.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Damn but I'd bet that even with 20 gauge guns your shoulder must have taken a serious pounding!

Well....just do this....raise the gun to your shoulder and then not fire it but put it down again.....do this 6,000 times and see how tired you are.....

You don't really have to shoot the darn thing to have a real workout!

Hey Guys,

Thanks to Brett for posting my loust pics...BUT , let me explain why I asked him to do this.

I apologize for the delayed post - was on the road shooting at a tournament.

Here's the skinny about this "Franken-gun" project as I call it.

After my trip to Argentina, I learned some very valuable lessons about shotgun handling and problems that arise from constant shooting of SxS guns over long periods. The pics show the pattern stock and fore end we developed as a result of this experience.

1) Splinter fore ends: They're sleek and pretty, but "pretty is as pretty does". For this game a decent sized Beavertail is mandatory gear. So, I had my smith modify one to prevent me from touching the sides of the barrels when they get "nuclear" hot! We took one of the stock splinter ends and spliced in some wood and "Bondoed" it up to resemble that of a early Purdey style BTFE. This pattern will help prevent barrel burns and is longer, thus will put some more weight forward. More weight forward smooths out the swing and bit and lets the berrels drop a bit harder upon opening thereby facilitating faster and easier ejection of spent hulls - READ: Faster reloads, i.e. more dead birds on the ground. The wider profile also reduces hand fatigue as I won't have to grip that little splinter to keep the gun under control. Simply put it is more ergonomic than the traditional splinter FE.

Relaxed pistol grip stock: This was done again to provide more control, dreive a more positive grip for better overall operation and the ergonomics are superior to that of the straight "English" type of stock. As you can see, we spliced a "Bondo" PG onto the gun, shaped it up to fit my paws. Should result in faster reloading via a better gripping surface and better swing control undfer fire. It should help minimize fatigue too. The relaxed profile of the grip does not seem to affect the operation of the double triggers.

I admit that some of you will most likely cringe at the idea of taking a pretty nice set of wood and butchering it up as we did, but I serious about my shooting and think this a necessary evil in getting the guns where they need to be for high volume shooting. We also drilled the top and bottom tangs and put opposing through bolts to keep the stocks headed up and to prevent loosening as happened on my last trip.

The guns and pattern stock and FE are up at Wenig Custom Gun Stocks being pantographed and fitted to the guns as I write this. I chose a heavyweight and highly fogured marched pair of cross-grained (full fiddleback) Turkish blanks intended for Double rifles for the wood. The old Rigby and Holland guns had stocks with similar grain patterns most likely to minimize and chances of splitting behind the top tang and behind the lockplates.

Will send over finished pics once the guns are up and running!

Wenig's does fine work. I understand Fred is semi-retired but he's a great guy.

BTW you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble by just using a pigeon grade 101, they've got the semi-pistol grips, heavier front barrels (flared for tubes), etc. already. Not to mention, they're an O/U which everyone knows is superior.

Fred sold the business a couple years ago to a longtime customer. A great guy that appreciates quality work and will carry on the Wenig tradition of excellence.

I LOVE 101s ! But, as stated earlier in this thread, I have an "addiction" to SxS guns...My loss I'm sure

For hot barrels try 90%( that what it says on the label) rubbing alcohol. The 80% also works but the 90% is better. Put it in a spray bottle and spray outside and inside barrels. It evaporates instantly and really cools the gun.

Interesting....No chance of flash ignition?

I think it's got to be hotter than your barrels get to ignite. I've done it while shooting trap and had no problems. You spray such a small amount that even if it did flash it wouldn't hurt you. ( I think). I know several other shooters thta do this and no one has problems.
It is amazing how much one spritz on the outside and one down each bore will cool your gun.