It will probably take a trip to Argentina.

I generally like lighter guns but want it to be very durable.

What say ye?

Benelli, Beretta, Remington all have their fan club. None are really light, but it sounds like a dove or duck hunt is coming up and durable is comforting when you're far from home.

Mike:

I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but unless you've been to Argentina dove hunting you may not understand what you're in for. Of course it is up to the hunter, but shooting 2000 shells a day or more is usually no problem if you can stand it. Take along some NSAIDs for your shoulders. LIGHT is not your friend. I shoot 101s mostly but I hear good things about Beretta 3901s. Even tho I hate them, you also might consider a 20. Why don't you post on the South American hunting forum and get some feedback from those who watch shotguns fold up under heavy use all the time?

gator can you explain fold upand maybe give models that fold up

"fold up" in this case is a euphemism for failing to function, breaking, no longer useful.

I'm not going to name current models because, as I said, I usually shoot O/U and the occasional SxS but I am sure the South American guys can read you chapter and verse. Basically, with very few exceptions, they all break under the onslaught of dove shooting in Argentina.

It's been a long time but just for an example I shot over 4000 12 ga shells out of my 101 THE FIRST DAY I ever hunted doves in Argentina. I then cut back and wound up shooting about 13,000 total that week. Gun never stopped working but I developed my first case of tendonitis in my shoulders.

Mike --- the two that come to mind at the Beretta and Benelli. In the Beretta I would look for either the current 391 or the earlier 390 and in the Benelli I would prefer the M2 over the others only because of the large difference in price.

One thing to think about is 12ga or 20ga and I would stick with the 12ga as quite a few of my friends have told me that feeding the 20ga shells into the magazine is harder on the fingers than the 12ga.

Personaly I find the old offering of the Browning A5 Lt. 12 tough to beat. Some say the recoil is a deterrent, but good pad or shoulder patch deal can solve that prolem quickly and cheaply. I suppose the A5's can be broken, but have yet to do so over the past 50 years of using them one way or the other. Good hunting versions can be had for less than a $1000 dollars and replace the nice wood stocks with the synthetic Browning version available from MGW and you are good to go about anywhere possible to hunt with a shogun.

quote:

Originally posted by dsiteman:
Personaly I find the old offering of the Browning A5 Lt. 12 tough to beat. Some say the recoil is a deterrent, but good pad or shoulder patch deal can solve that prolem quickly and cheaply. I suppose the A5's can be broken, but have yet to do so over the past 50 years of using them one way or the other. Good hunting versions can be had for less than a $1000 dollars and replace the nice wood stocks with the synthetic Browning version available from MGW and you are good to go about anywhere possible to hunt with a shogun.

They are among the kickingest shotguns guns known to mankind comparing apples to apples. It is ridiculouse to consider them for heavy volume shooting. Have you ever shot 500 shells or more a day through one? Other than that they are fine guns.

Gatogordo thanx for clearing that up i thought that is what you meant

Well I believe most would agree that recoil is a personal issue and what is tough to you may well not be tough to someone else. I noted with my comment, in the beginning I might add, that recoil felt by some to be excess but would remind others that if the recoil adjustment system is correct for the loads being used, and the tube is not "lathered" with oil, grease, etc. as it clearly tells you NOT to do, recoil is quite manageable for those unless you are very sensitive to recoil. And yes, there have been weekends where several of us have shot far more than 500 rounds per day in these guns. Might add never had a failure and gun did not foul from "gas" residue. What a concept!!
Overall an amazing piece of firearm design and find more quality in the butt plate of an A5 than many of today's offerings, but that is just me.

Recoil is not a personal issue, it is a physical reality as noted in Newton's second and third laws of motion. I'm nearly certain that I've shot many more heavy loads than you have and I'm am 100% certain based on your choice of guns that I've shot many multiples of the number of shotgun shells that you have. Just for instance, when I got my first Winchester 101 back in the 80s, I shot well over 30,000 shells through it in the first month I had it, shooting blackbirds over rice fields. No failures in it either. When you've taken your A5 to Argentina and shot a couple of thousand shells per day for 3 to 7 days in a row, get back to me on how recoil is a "personal issue".

I am very impressed that you have heard of Newton and his laws and I would say from your responses on this issue that you most certainly have shot more than I or more than most of mankind for that matter and would further add that you have shot more than you should have.
Might want to slack off a bit since I am sure you hold the record for the entire galaxy.

quote:

I shot well over 30,000 shells through it in the first month I had it, shooting blackbirds over rice fields.

Are you sure you really mean 30,000 in a month? Because even using a 31 day month and only sleeping 6 hours a day that means you fired 53 shells an hour or or 1 shell every 1 minute 8 seconds ofe every waking moment.

If you meant to say 3000 rounds in the first month that's stil 1 shell every 13 minutes of every waking moment.

Just checking the old math there...

dsiteman:

Your reply only displays your ignorance.

There are probably thousands of competitive trap shooters who have shot many more shotgun shells than I have. Serous trap shooters who live in Penn and a few other Eastern states, for instance, can and often do shoot over 40 to 50,000 singles targets a year IN COMPETITION not counting practice, doubles or handicap, so their total shots fired in a year could easily be over 150,000 per year for many years.

Where I live it is very difficult to shoot more than 10,000 singles a year because of the distance between tournaments and I haven't shot competitive trap in about 15 years and even when I did, my shots fired at trap including practice was probably under 100,000 per year on average. Skeet shooters can and do shoot a lot as well, but because of time constraints built into the skeet layout, most of them don't wind up with the shots fired totals that trap shooters do.

At any rate, Mike was asking specifically for a gun recommendation for dove hunting in Argentina. I have done that quite a few times, and while I haven't kept a record, I'm probably not even in the top 50% of shells shot for those who shoot there with some degree of regularity. My first trip was my most extravagant as far as shells shot.....as I've said in other places, I shot 4000 shells the first day using a 101 (the same one I shot the above mentioned blackbird fields with) and 13,000 that week......but my total shell expenditure in Argentina, Uruguay, etc is probably well under 100,000. Once you've done it a time or two, many, but by no means all, shooters slow down to about a case (500) per session or about a thousand shells a day. Whether you like my replies or not, that experience puts me well ahead of the normal US field hunter in relation to what guns are most suitable for that type of shooting. Do I claim great knowledge, no, but I have been there, done that, and certainly paid for my t-shirt, which is more than some on this thread can say.

Mike:

The "old math" is working fine, even at my advanced age, some of the rest of me isn't in quite as good a shape however.

Yes, I said and meant 30,000 shells in a month. I hunted many of those days with friends who shot as much or more than I did, but not as often because they had regular jobs, so I could scrounge up some witnesses if pressed. Once I found the place and met the land owner and manager who were plagued with blackbirds on their rice and liked people shooting them, I would shoot a MINIMUM of 500 shells in the morning and come back and shoot a MINIMUM of 500 shells in the evening, sometimes I'd shoot a thousand, it just depended on flight patterns, weather, etc. This went on for several years, but this particular period was when I got my first 101 and I wanted to test it's durability since I'd just had a bad experience with a Citori. Its been a while and I don't recall the exact acreage, but it was several thousand acres of rice with blackbirds on all of it, and usually I and maybe a friend or three were the only shooters on the place until the word leaked out. BUT I don't think I ever failed to shoot 500 per session with morning and evening sessions a day. How do I know, simple, I'd shoot 500 shells or so, and come home and load up 500 or so more on my PW 800B, takes about an hour and a half for one person, sometimes we'd team up and two can load about 700 shells an hour. Then I'd get up early in the AM, drive the 30 miles south of town and shoot my 500 or so. Then I'd come home, load 500, eat lunch, take a nap, and take 500 more shells back into the fray that afternoon. I always kept at least a thousand shells in back of the truck in case they swarmed me. It usually took about 2 hours, sometimes a bit more, sometimes less to shoot a case (these were the days of 500 to a case) up. That's only roughly 4 shots a minute, and very often you'd shoot many times that rate. There were basically as many blackbirds as there are doves in Argentina. Sometimes a buddy and I in Argentina, after a mornings shoot down there, when the doves were flying slower but still pretty active (they fly all day but slow down around noon, unlike whitewings which turn on and off like a water faucet) would play a couple of games we invented. One was shoot as many doves as you can in 30 seconds with up to a box of. Best I recall my doing was about 20 killed in 20 seconds with the 25 shots, this with the 101. Time started with first shot. You could run a higher percentage but the time would expire. The other was how long to shoot a "Texas" limit of 15. I don't remember the exact time but it was around 12 or 13 seconds, if you could get a few doubles (two with one shot)in. I'm not into bullshitting, I guess you can believe it or not the shells are long shot and I'm nearly so.

BTW I had already worn out a Citori shooting blackbirds. It was less than two years old and Browning only charged me $175 to rebuild it. It went on to a more deserving shooter shortly after I got it back from Browning. I have not liked Citoris much since then, but, to be fair, I've got a friend, one of the blackbird shooters, who has an earlier model that has shot thousands of rounds of heavy duck and goose loads as well as tens of thousands lighter loads and it keeps on shooting. In retrospect, I think mine might have had heat treating problems.

quote:

shoot over 40 to 50,000 singles targets a year IN COMPETITION not counting practice, doubles or handicap

??????

Most big trap shoots can run 5 days and if take away handicap and doubles and you are normally left with 300 rounds of singles. Now if you can find one of those big shoots each weekend (and you can't)you would be shooting about 1200 rounds a month and with season being about 6 months you are looking at 7200 rounds of singles competition. If someone could even hit the 40,000 rounds of singles competition in a half year it would come out to over 1500 rounds of singles a week at meets. NOOOOOO Way.

So Gatorado, I would check your math and if you have any extra hip boots that you likely were using when you were shooting 30000 rounds a month in those rice fields, we could all use a pair of them.

quote:

I shot over 4000 12 ga shells out of my 101 THE FIRST DAY

This is a Shotgun made by General Dynamics??

4000/8 hours continuos fire = 500 rounds in the air per hour.

500/60 minutes continuos fire = 8.33 rounds per minute in the air.

That would be one round in the air every 7.2 seconds....doable but not sustainable.

You would have to find time to reload, and take another hit of LSD in between your loading and AIMED fire........

Got a video clip??

Gatogordo,
I must admit my ignorance on a human's ability to load and fire a break open shotgun, yours in particular, at the rapid rate you describe. Furthermore, I stand corrected in stating that you must hold the record for shots fired in the galaxy and need to elevate that status to the entire known universe. Not sure all of that shooting and ability to kill blackbirds is relevant to the original question of which semi auto shotgun to purchase, but will say that I and others fully understand that you did not like my suggestion of a Browning A5 as a choice. So be it, but the A5 is known as an "automatic"(says so on the buttplate!) and had you used one, even with intolerable recoil levels, your rate of fire would have probably soared beyond belief and you would be known throughout the cosmos. In any event, now that you have laid claim to the lofty record number of shots with whatever shotgun, would seriously consider slacking off a bit and rest assured no other mortal threatens your records. You may stand down with pride and glory in your accomplishments and I stand humble before the long shadow you cast in the world of shotgunning.

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:

quote:

shoot over 40 to 50,000 singles targets a year IN COMPETITION not counting practice, doubles or handicap

??????

Most big trap shoots can run 5 days and if take away handicap and doubles and you are normally left with 300 rounds of singles. Now if you can find one of those big shoots each weekend (and you can't)you would be shooting about 1200 rounds a month and with season being about 6 months you are looking at 7200 rounds of singles competition. If someone could even hit the 40,000 rounds of singles competition in a half year it would come out to over 1500 rounds of singles a week at meets. NOOOOOO Way.

So Gatorado, I would check your math and if you have any extra hip boots that you likely were using when you were shooting 30000 rounds a month in those rice fields, we could all use a pair of them.

Chic:

You need to stick to a topic you know something about, which I assume might be stock making. Specifically my eyes were opened to the numbers of singles shot by talking with Mr. David George from Pennsylvania, a senior shooter at the Southern Grand in Florida, many moons back, we were on the same squad of AA shooters and while chatting he asked me how many targets I had shot that year, I answered, puffed chest, "about 10,000". He burst my bubble rather quickly saying that his total was about 50,000 (I don't remember the exact number). He also added that he could shoot REGISTERED TARGETS 5 NIGHTS AND 6 DAYS A WEEK within 50 miles of so of his home, which is one reason why Penn normally leads the nation in numbers of ATA targets shot.

Finally, Mr. Customstox Math Singles know-it- all, I don't have a current copy but I went out to my shop and dug up a 1987 copy of The Official ATA Average book. Highest number of registered singles shot in 1987 was 170,100 with a .9602 average by Mr. A. J. Olivio, Jr. of Steubenvile, Oh.

Why don't you check your math before you spout off on a topic of which you obviously have little knowledge?

Stick that 170,100 ATA singles in your fucking math book, know it all.

dsiteman:

You continue to display your ignorance. Dove shooting in Argentina is obviously beyond both your experience and your ability to comprehend.
Many years ago, the record KILLED in one day was about 3400, when you're shooting that fast it is nearly impossible to run more than 60 to 70%, you do the math. I wasn't there but I understand he used two 20 ga 1100s with loaders. I don't know but I imagine the "record" is quite a bit higher now. Oh, and one more little detail while I'm at it. You'll find that if you load your own shells, that is you don't have loaders standing by, you can shoot an 0/U or SXS with ejectors nearly, if not as fast, as a semi-auto, stuffing the magazine in the semi-auto takes time and wears on your thumb after a while. Just like you'll wind up with a band-aid on the thumb which you break the lever with on a twice barrel.

On the trip I referred to, we were the first foreign dove hunters who had ever been in that area AND while this didn't make any difference, because my hunting buddy and I had scheduled a goose hunt the previous week, we were two days ahead of the rest of the hunting group. I shot my 101, with a couple of layers of the then new "miracle" material "polysorbathane" (which is now, or some later version of it, in most of the Declerator pads, etc) duct taped together and to my shotgun butt instead of my normal recoil pad. First shot was pre-sunrise and I thought the field had gotten up in front of me, there were literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of doves in that one field. Whether you believe my total shots fired or not doesn't make a bit of difference to me, that was over 20 years ago and I couldn't shoot that many now, for sure. At the time I was shooting competitive trap and was used to firing a lot of shells.

Some years after that, I went with a couple of my cousins, I was about 45, and they were about 65 and 67. I didn't know they were in a "brotherly" competition,we were a long ways apart, but I asked and was told my kill was about 800 by about 9:00 when I was thinking of quitting and having a beer. I figured, "Well, what the hell, they're flying good, might as well shoot a thousand, it took me roughly and hour and a half to kill 250 more, but these were tough high shots. We all killed over a thousand doves (I think my total was about 1050, more or less and I was through by about 10:30....just to remind you the doves fly all day) the first morning and I had asked to be put in a spot where the doves were coming in high into the field. It was great fun and, while I don't remember the exact total, I shot about 1600 shells that morning. The reason I bring this up is because the shots in my position were high and wide, and so the shooting was not as fast as it can be when you're where they're landing to feed. I repeat, you're writing about something which you know nothing about and you would be better served if you kept your mouth shut.

One more thing, they may not be common where Mr. Customstox Know-It-All shoots but in days past in Texas and Louisiana there were sometimes scheduled ATA singles tournaments which shot 600 or 1000 singles a day. That added to your total, and I'm sure they did the same thing up North.

And finally, while no one really cares but me and my memories, that first day of 4000 shells provided one of the neatest and most fun shooting experiences I've ever had. We were basically through and we walking back for the lunch asado and a siesta. We crossed a local river/big creek on some strategically placed rocks and when I walked up out of the banks which were maybe 50 feet high on the lower side and probably about 100 to 125 feet high on the highest point on the bluff that I walked over to. When I got there, lo and behold there was a fairly steady stream of doves flying just above water level following the river. I quickly called for some cajas and started shooting. It was spectacular. I was shooting basically straight down and, miss or hit, you could see exactly where your pattern hit in the water. I only shot three or four boxes before my buddy caught up and said "Let's eat." But it was one of the high points of a lot of shooting over the years. Tremendous fun!

Finally, both to customstox, dsiteman and that idiot Macifej who seems to follow my posts around because his panties are in a wad, I'm tired of fucking around in this thread with people who don't know what they're talking about. So I'm done. I do what I say I'll do and I say what I did, some of you might try to get in the habit. I suggest you ask the South American boys about Argentine dove shooting and maybe you'll learn something.

Gatordo, you are so full of shit and always have been. Your exagerations are obvious to the unitiated. Anyone can go to the ATA website, look up shoots and blow holes in your bs statements. So go revil in your fantasies.

NO ONE follows you around to revel in your accomplishments and statements. They just laugh at your off the wall, blow hard statements.

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
Gatordo, you are so full of shit and always have been. Your exagerations are obvious to the unitiated. Anyone can go to the ATA website, look up shoots and blow holes in your bs statements. So go revil in your fantasies.

NO ONE follows you around to revel in your accomplishments and statements. They just laugh at your off the wall, blow hard statements.

Customstox:

Are you suggesting that I'm making up what I said about the man shootiing 170,100 registered singles in 1987? Because if you are, then you're not only stupid, but a no good son of a bitch who can't check facts and is not man enough to admit when you're wrong. That is the first ATA book I came to, I've only got a few left from that era which were in the bottom of a box that I unpacked in my reloading room. If you'd like me to, I'll go check the other couple of years and give you maximum totals shot by one individual in a year, dickhead.

PS: Customdick, I can give you another example, but perhaps your inquiring mind might find it passing curious that in 108 PAGES of posts by Macifej he HAS A GRAND TOTAL OF ONE POST in the "shotgunning" forum and that is to attempt to belittle my post. Pure coincidence in your world, I'm sure.

I'm not going to bother to flood the uninformed with details and the last ATA book that I've got or, at least that I know where it is, is 1987. In the 1987 average book there, and in all of them as far as I know, is a list of Shooters with more than 25,000 LIFETIME registered singles. Leader in 1987 LIFETIME totals was the same Mr. Olivio with 761,400, second was a Mr. Burkhart of Ohio with 513,200, and third was a Mr. Suydam of NJ with 452,575. Anyone with a more current book can look for themselves, it is listed in the index. On this list there are 27 shooters with MORE than 200,000 lifetime singles and that was in 1987. Try some research instead of spouting off about that which you obviously have no knowledge, customstox.

quote:

PS: Customdick, I can give you another example, but perhaps your inquiring mind might find it passing curious that in 108 PAGES of posts by Macifej he HAS A GRAND TOTAL OF ONE POST in the "shotgunning" forum and that is to attempt to belittle my post. Pure coincidence in your world, I'm sure.

Actually, FatCat - I wasn't trying to belittle your post - I've just learned recently that whenever there's some sort of outlandish BS posted anywhere your name seems to be attached to it!!

I really don't care enough about your paranoid delusions to dig into some dusty old obscure shotgun record books so I'll rely on you to show us how stupid we are with some documentary evidence - JACK-OFF!!!

But seriously - I looked at the thread cause I was interested in what you had to say about reccomending a shotgun not about your grandiose pontifications of the implausible.

Make that two posts in shotgunning out of 3698.

So anyways,

quote:

Need to purchase a 12 ga auto...what would you buy?

I'd buy a Beretta 3901 with the walnut stock. In fact, buy 2, one in 12 and another in 20. Both with 28" barrels.

I've already got both and Beretta 303's in both gauges that I've used for years.

Soft shooters, they cycle light to heavy loads, and I've had no problems with any of them.

The 3901 12 cycles my 3/4oz handloads just fine. 3/4 oz gets me 533 loads out of a bag of shot and breaks clay targets just fine.

Be a good high volume blackbird load

Gordie gator, if you are insuniating that I am making up someone to post about your bs, you are delusioinal which actually is a given. If you had brains enough to read my post it was in regards to your 40,000 to 50,000 singles per season.

You are still and forever will be full of it and you continue to show that.

I wonder why someone who posts in a particular forum for one post is not to be believed. You post a lot and are never believed. So in honor of your many posts on AR, I raise the flag to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
Gordie gator, if you are insuniating that I am making up someone to post about your bs, you are delusioinal which actually is a given. If you had brains enough to read my post it was in regards to your 40,000 to 50,000 singles per season.

You are still and forever will be full of it and you continue to show that.

I wonder why someone who posts in a particular forum for one post is not to be believed. You post a lot and are never believed. So in honor of your many posts on AR, I raise the flag to you.

Good try, but speaking of reading, I never claimed to have shot 40 to 50,000 registered singles a year, I said others did. It was you and your intimate knowledge of trap shooting who said that was impossible, "Noooooo way.", was the astute term you used based on your bullshit knowledge of trapshooting, so the flag is appropriate. Of course, then I showed where one person shot over 170,000 registered singles in a year and you still claim you know what you're talking about......I believe the term is delusional but again you applied it to the wrong person, specifically you are the one ignoring reality and facts in front of you. The humorous part is I proved you dead wrong about how many singles someone can shoot and you're still way too LITTLE a man to just say "Opps, I made a mistake and I was wrong." Little man.

You do have reading and comprehension problems. I never said that you had stated that about you. So get back on track and wipe the bs off your boots.

Gatogordo,
To begin with you disagree with someone(me) who suggests a specific auto loader for a fellow looking for just that, a suggestion, and problem is not in disagreeing, your choice, but to do so in a ass like fashion is just not the way to do things. There are those out here in the big wide world that will send it back to you much stronger than you could ever imagine and it is just not that critical of a subject to start a verbal war. I could care less how many rounds you have shot per minute, hour, day, trap or live birds and doubt others care either, but to lay claim to astounding number of shots and not expect to be challenged is not a wise thing to do.
Your use of foul language and personal insults is probably a sure way to gain the attention of someone monitoring the postings and end result is not being welcome here anymore. Don't think you want that nor do I, so would suggest toning it down and let's just hope the gentleman looking for a good autoloader to use in South America finds what he is looking for and has a great time. Life is short enough and no time for rants or raves for any of us when there are so many enjoyable things we can participate in while we walk this earth.

Gato,

I am curious who was second and third behind Mr Olivo in 1987 and how many targets did they shoot that year?

Not to get into the shit =-kickin' contest that seems to be going on but I live in California and we shoot year round and I know more than a few shooters, mostly trap but some skeet, who will average 800-1,000 rounds a week --- if you include practice and competition.

When I initially got serious about skeet shooting I shot at least 4 rounds of practice every afternoon after work and, depending on my wife's "to-do" list I'd shoot another 8-10 rounds on the week-ends -- that's 700+ rounds per week and there were retired guys who shot a lot more than that...... I bulk ordered my ammo and they would delivered to my house on pallets.
It was a lot of fun but I'm a little more laid back now.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Gato,

I am curious who was second and third behind Mr Olivo in 1987 and how many targets did they shoot that year?

Mike:

The average book doesn't list 2nd and 3rd for most singles shot for any one year, but using the 1987 most singles lifetime list, I looked up the #2 (Burkhart) and #3 (Suydam) on that list for their total singles for 1987 and they shot 67,300 and 33,100 respectively. I don't know if they were second and third for that year or not, but they certainly would have been pretty high up on the list, I'm sure.

As an aside, I looked up my friend (who I'm reasonably sure is deceased now), Mr. George for 1987, he shot an even 26,000 registered trap targets that year, counting all three events. I guess when I was talking to him he had picked up the pace a bit.

quote:

Originally posted by dsiteman:
Gatogordo,
To begin with you disagree with someone(me) who suggests a specific auto loader for a fellow looking for just that, a suggestion, and problem is not in disagreeing, your choice, but to do so in a ass like fashion is just not the way to do things. There are those out here in the big wide world that will send it back to you much stronger than you could ever imagine and it is just not that critical of a subject to start a verbal war. I could care less how many rounds you have shot per minute, hour, day, trap or live birds and doubt others care either, but to lay claim to astounding number of shots and not expect to be challenged is not a wise thing to do.
Your use of foul language and personal insults is probably a sure way to gain the attention of someone monitoring the postings and end result is not being welcome here anymore. Don't think you want that nor do I, so would suggest toning it down and let's just hope the gentleman looking for a good autoloader to use in South America finds what he is looking for and has a great time. Life is short enough and no time for rants or raves for any of us when there are so many enjoyable things we can participate in while we walk this earth.

dsiteman:

I have carefully re-read all my posts relating to your posts in this thread. Unless I've missed something I have not insulted you one time in this whole thread. I called your choice of shotguns for dove shooting in Argentina ridiculous and said that you were ignorant on the topic of high volume shotgun shooting, both of which are completely true statements, whether you and your apparently fragile ego care to admit it or not. You're the one who chose to attempt to ridicule my posts relating my experiences both in Argentina and other places shooting high volumes of shotgun shells which I mentioned so that others would understand that my thoughts were based on real life experiences, not internet speculation. If your ego got bruised because you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to Argentine dove hunting (have you been?), that is your problem, not mine. Just like I wouldn't recommend a golf club to someone who asked what club to use because I don't play golf, you shouldn't recommend a shotgun for high volume shooting since you have never really participated in it.

I'm not going to bother to reply to some implied threat in your second sentence, I'll await developments, if any.

In addition, I don't "lay claim" to shooting some astounding number of shots, I shot them, nor do I find the numbers mentioned to be "astounding", a choice of adjectives which relates to one's shooting experiences, and, as I said in my threads, there are many people who've shot a helluva lot more than I have.

The use of foul language was appropriately applied in this case in my opinion. If you don't like my posts or my choice of words, I suggest you use the ignore button and we'll both likely be better for it.

If your ego hadn't have gotten in the way, you'd have read that I said the A-5 was a great shotgun but it is CERTAINLY not a great choice for high volume shooting. Even though I've never seen it, I'm sure at sometime someone has taken an A-5 from the US to Argentina where they would almost certainly soon come to regret that decision if they shot as much as most people do on their first trip. I have seen such episodes in Mexico, complete with bleeding shoulders and the inability to shoot after the first day using A-5s and, while Mexican whitewings can be very hot, they don't offer nearly the volume of shooting as earred doves in Argentina if for no other reason than they only fly for much more limited times. Indeed, my first high volume shooting episode was on whitewings in Mexico about 45 years ago, I was about 14 and used a sweet sixteen. While not bloody, my shoulder was plenty bruised, but back then, I was ignorant too. However, it was a great time and the start of many to come, none of which used a sweet sixteen or an A-5, I might add.

Finally, life is short and I hope you can find the time and money to go to Argentina or Uruguay dove hunting, be sure to take your A-5 if that's what you want to use. It is a wonderful shooting experience and I hope you can enjoy it.

Gatogorda,
Hell I was offering the opportunity to "kiss and make nice...," but you insist on remaining nasty and insulting. Nah, I won't put you on any ignore list for always can use your comments to bring a smile and a chuckle to my day. You take care now and keep those stories coming for mine and others amusement.

Gato,

Is it possible that the 170k+ singles in one year by Mr. Olivo is a typo?

Here is why I question it. 170k rounds in a year is 466 rounds a day, every day of the year. Plus, if I am interpretting your post correctly at the time Mr. Olivo shot 170k in 1 year his lifetime targets were 761k.

That means he shot 22% of his lifetime targets at that point all in on year.

Do me a favor please. Run your finger down the list of the shooters with with high averages and just let me know if anybody else exceeded 125k targets or even 100k targets in a year.

Thanks,

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Gato,

Is it possible that the 170k+ singles in one year by Mr. Olivo is a typo?

Here is why I question it. 170k rounds in a year is 466 rounds a day, every day of the year. Plus, if I am interpretting your post correctly at the time Mr. Olivo shot 170k in 1 year his lifetime targets were 761k.

That means he shot 22% of his lifetime targets at that point all in on year.

Do me a favor please. Run your finger down the list of the shooters with with high averages and just let me know if anybody else exceeded 125k targets or even 100k targets in a year.

Thanks,

Jesus Christ, Mike. I guess it's possible it's a typo, but if so they typoed the year before (1986) in that year's average book when he shot 169,100. You seem determined to prove that I'm lying, which I'm not, about this or anything else. If you want me to send you the frigging average book, PM me your address, and when you get it, I want you to agee to post that I'm posting correct information as shown in that book. I'm assuming he set his sights on shooting a million singles targets, but since I don't have later issue average books (or at least don't know where they are) I don't know if he made it or not. Vaguely I seem to recall a later article in Trap and Field about someone, him, I assume, shooting a million but that is just a whisp of a memory and I'm not saying it happened. Anyone with a recent vintage ATA average book can look it up. Some people kind of get addicted to the smell of burnt red or green dot or similar. I know the feeling.

I never said skads of people shot 40 to 50,000 targets a year, I said some serious shooters do. Maybe I should have said a few, but I didn't know I was going to be cross examined on what I considered to be a minor detail.

The really high average singles shooters (99%plus) aren't going to shoot anything like that much, most of them are shooting all three events, and are going to shoot 5000 or less singles a year AND they'll duck bad weather conditions in a second unless it is at a major shoot. Some, but by no means all, of the high average shooters are what I'd call semi-pros, and use their accomplishments on the field to support a career related to trap shooting so they have a financial, as well as pride, reason to protect their averages.(Not too long after I started shooting trap, I shot my first 100 st singles in competition in a cold driving hard rainstorm that blew up at the Midwestern Grand in El Reno, Ok. Won the class, my first ATA tropy with 198/200. Conditions were tough that day or normally a 198 would not have won it.) Mr. Olivio mostly just shot singles (I wonder why, at nearly 500 a day?) and, as I said, earlier, to shoot that much you have to live basically in Ohio, Penn, or that general area where they have registered shoots reasonably close together nearly 7 DAYS AND NIGHTS a week, at least in the spring/summer/fall months AND unlike what customdick said, they shoot all year around, often with deep snow around the trap field, (one guy showed me a picture with snow above the waistline of the shooters, I said, "not for this Southern Boy") but obviously the partcipation is much lower when conditions are tough and cold.

Your "math" seems to lead you to believe that people can't do what I've said they do, as I said earlier, they do and have, including my shooting the 30,000 plus "blackbird" shells in a month which is not a big deal if someone has the time, money, and opportunity. THE AVERAGE SHOOTER WILL SHOOT AT LEAST A THOUSAND SHELLS A DAY IN ARGENTINA AND THAT IS CUTTING WAY BACK ON WHAT IT IS POSSIBLE TO SHOOT. Most first timers shoot way more than that, if their shoulders can stand it. I'm going to say this one more time, ask the Argentina guys and if you like to shoot, by all means go and make a few simple preps ahead of time. I think I saw the rest of that sheet of polysorbathane in my reloading room not too long ago. Stuff is a beautiful blue but is kind of tacky and soon turns gray from dirt, etc. It is very helpful to tape some on the butt of your gun, if you're going and want some, I'll see if I can find it, but looking for something in my reloading room is not an easy task. Polysorbathane is more effective than even the best pads because it doesn't have the harder rubber on the outside to hold it's shape. Duct taping some on the butt of your stock may not look pretty, but your shoulder will thank you.

BTW, I've said this before in other places, but I shot a few times with and against Saeed as my trap shooting was winding down and his was cranking up. He was an incredibly gifted shooter and did things no one has ever done in the short period that he shot trap before going back home. I've never seen anything like it, nor had anyone else. I remember at the Grand American, then at Vandalia, Ohio, when he tied with Dan Bonillas for the Doubles Championship. I was standing by when Bonillas, another incredible shot BTW, as he was going to the shootoff, walked by talking to a friend, he said, "This won't take long", as he was looking at this skinny Arab that no one had ever heard of. He was right, he missed in the first round and Saeed didn't, game, set, and match to Saeed.

If Saeed shoots a rifle HALF as well as he shoots a shotgun, then it is no wonder he drops buffalo left and right and that's no bull.

Guys, I don't want to get into this fight, and I certainly have no knowledge of the volume of shots American trap and skeet shooters get through in a year.

However, I have researched the Argentina thing as I really fancy a trip. 2,000 - 3,000 rounds a day is perfectly normal there - if you are physically up to it.

A guy I know here was out there a couple of years ago. He shot nearly 20K rounds in five days through a Beretta 682E 12 bore, - but he is a shooting animal.

As far as I know, the record number of birds killed in a day is held by an Irish guy, I am happy to be corrected on the number, but it was something like 6,000 birds in the day. He shot with 4 benelli 20 bore auto's and a team of loaders.

The general advice is a pair of 20 bore Auto's, either Beretta 391's or Benelli's.

These trips are generally relatively cheap, you will run the extra costs up on your shell account. Bring a credit card with at least $5K of space for ammo.

I read of an English gent who went there a few years back with a pair of Woodward sidelocks. He came home with only one barrel firing and one barrel ejecting on each gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Claret_Dabbler:
Guys, I don't want to get into this fight, and I certainly have no knowledge of the volume of shots American trap and skeet shooters get through in a year.

However, I have researched the Argentina thing as I really fancy a trip. 2,000 - 3,000 rounds a day is perfectly normal there - if you are physically up to it.

A guy I know here was out there a couple of years ago. He shot nearly 20K rounds in five days through a Beretta 682E 12 bore, - but he is a shooting animal.

As far as I know, the record number of birds killed in a day is held by an Irish guy, I am happy to be corrected on the number, but it was something like 6,000 birds in the day. He shot with 4 benelli 20 bore auto's and a team of loaders.

The general advice is a pair of 20 bore Auto's, either Beretta 391's or Benelli's.

These trips are generally relatively cheap, you will run the extra costs up on your shell account. Bring a credit card with at least $5K of space for ammo.

I read of an English gent who went there a few years back with a pair of Woodward sidelocks. He came home with only one barrel firing and one barrel ejecting on each gun.

Claret:

Thanks for the ancedotal back up. You had better look out, all these math wizard know it alls on here will be calling you a liar pretty quick. It's kind of pitiful really.

I didn't know the "record" was that high, but like I said above, nearly 25 years ago it was 3400 killed in a day and I was sure it would be much higher by now. The know it alls don't believe that either.