gerry375,
The acceleration due to gravity is 32.2 feet per second per second.

Given that you shoot the gun horizontally, one second after the pellet leaves the barrel, no matter how fast it is moving at the muzzle, it will be moving verically 32.2 feet per second and after 2 seconds it will be moving vertically at 64.4 feet per second and so on. It does not even care how fast it came out. If it is shot 10 feet off the ground, it will hit the ground at the same time as a pellet shot at twice the muzzle velocity. But the faster pellets will hit further out. Gravity is independent of muzzle velocity

Dutch explained the rest of it well.

Pattern density will deteriorate in a 20 faster than in a 12 and you are certainly right in that respect. I have heard some reports that indicate the number of pullets that it takes under normal circumstances to bring a pheasant down and have heard anywhere from 5 to 9. Certainly the higher density in a 12 will make a difference at extended distances. I have no trouble with pheasants at 35 yards but that is about the extremity of the range of it. You can shoot 1 1/4 ounce 3" 20 gauge shells but don't and have never patterned them.

Dutch - Customstox

Very reluctantly I am ceding the argument. I am doing so on the premise stated by both of you that regardless of the propulsion power behind it, the pellet will be affected (whether from a 12 or a 20) by gravity and laws of aerodynamics. Obviously, you both know what you are talking about. ( I am not trained in the sciences) I confess that Customstox's post awakened memories of Galileo's experiments with falling bodies and proving what didn't seem logically possible to be a fact. My only feeble response to you guys is to say " Why the hell have we been using 12s all these years? "

quote:

" Why the hell have we been using 12s all these years? "

Not all of us have been, nor do we need to take long shots on upland game birds when our dogs do their jobs.

Besides which, I'd rather not centerpunch a quail with 1 1/4 oz. out of a 12 and destroy it's value as a food item. My 1 oz. 20 ga. handloads kills them dead out to 30 yds. with no problem.

I use a 12 for ducks and geese but I use a lighter shot charge at a higher velocity. Hevi-Shot patterns tight and I think 1 1/8 oz. out of a 12 at 1500+ is about as deadly a load on geese as anything I ever used.

I wish Federal or someone would sell Tungsten Iron shot by the bag so we could handload it.

Well, I use a 12, because at 6'5" and 38" arms, finding ONE gun that fits is hard enough already. So I've adapted a Browining Gold Fusion to my dimensions, and started to handload.

It's an under 7 lb gun, so it carries like a 20. It's a gasser, so it recoils like a 20. But, I can still back up the kids when they cripple a rooster with 1.5 oz of #4, and bring the ole boy home to the table.

I have 7/8th oz of #7's ruffed grouse loads, 1 oz #7 sharptail and hun loads (which do the trick to 40 yards from an IC choke). I have 1 1/4 #6's loads for chukars and blue grouse, 1 3/8th's of #5's for pheasants and sage grouse, and the above mentioned 1 1/2 oz buffered #4's for "Hail Mary's".

I would not mind having a "gun to fit the activity", but lately, the gun budget has been eaten up by the dogs........ Looking for another one, right now. If you think a gun habit is bad, never ever start with bird dogs.... LOL! Dutch.

Dutch:

Migod! What kind of pheasants do you have in Idaho that 1.5 ounces of #4 shot don't drop them and you have to back up the kids?

I always heard that Westerners say their game is tougher and I know you want to scare us Easterners -but really! Stop telling us Easterners "tall tales". (They are tall tales, aren't they? I refuse to believe that #6s from a 12 wouldn't drop the biggest pheasant that ever flew. BTW, in my neck of the woods we used field load #6s. Of course that's because we could shoot better than people in Idaho.

The #4's is for when the kids take a crack at a rooster, and drop a leg, but don't bring it down. Even at 60 yards or so, from a full choke, more often than not, they come tumbling down. That said, I find 5's much more effective on mature roosters than 6's, especially on departing birds.

Of course, we westerners find you easterners a bit peculiar, anyway, with your fascination with ruffed grouse. What you folks revere as the wiley, most difficult bird of the uplands, the "pa'tridge", runs around out here too. Of course, ruffed grouse are so easy to hunt, we call them "fools hens". Dutch.

The last 17 pheasants I killed were with a 16 gauge LC Smith using an oz of #5's...shots were between 10 and 45 yards and they were killed very dead...so I guess between 12 and 20 IS the answer to the original post! Probably should have let a couple of them flap their wings another time or two.

a true gentleman shall have several shotguns in various guages. Kurt.

I personally have no experience with a 20ga but would love one. In Africa the 12 GA rules by a long shot ITO availability in ammo. A friend used a 20ga some years back in Zim for pigeon and Guineafowl and said all worked very well.

Guineas have a reputation for their toughness and can be buggers to hunt...you often need to take long shots, especially if they are not beat shoots...guineas are wily! BUT I think a 1oz 20ga should be great for them...its more the shooting that counts from there on out (hence the popularity of the 28ga - without getting into a debate about how the 16 and 28 pattern better!!).

For Francolin/Spurfowl/Rock pigeon etc the 20GA would be superb. Duck...not my department but i don't see why as we aren't hampered by steel shot.
Just remember that 20 GA ammo may be harder to get. In JHB, DBN, CTN, Bloem etc etc and other major RSA cities you can get it (varying from small stocks to all shot sizes) but the 12Ga is available just about every farmers co-op in the country.

Rational tought would say 12 but desire would say 20....screw rationale!!!

Dutch, Gerry, et al:

Re your pellet velocity discussion

Dutch is certainly right about the same pellet out of a 20 or a 12 at the same velocity having the same energy. HOWEVER, the aerodynamics that Gerry mentioned were kind of glossed over lightly. In fact, MOST balanced 12 ga loads will have better pattern EFFICIENCY at any given range, obviously not counting at the muzzle, than most equivalent 20 ga loads. Why.....well, there is USUALLY more barrel scrub and set back which creates shot deformation, which equals pellets that are useless because they are outside of the kill zone when the shot column is longer for an given shot charge wt. Therefore, again comparing apples to apples, all other factors being equal, a one ounce charge out of a 12 ga at the same velocity as a one ounce charge out of a 20 will NORMALLY have a few more pellets in it at hunting ranges.

Same thing holds true for a 12 vs a 10 with malleable shot, except that the wt of the 10 takes quite a bit of shooting to get used to. Back when lead was legal, a good man with a 10 could make an equally good man with a 12 wonder if he was shooting blanks when they counted the geese at the end of the day.

I realize this horse is dead, but for all around bird hunting, a 12 is a much more versatile choice. I kind of hate 20s, my idea is if you gave a damn how many birds you kill, then get a 12 or a 10 (assuming waterfowling), if you're hunting for sport and want a real handicap, shoot a 28 or a .410. My experience is that, in spite of what everyone says, hunting next to guys with 20s over the last 40 years or so, the 20s wound and lose more birds than guys with 12s. Obviously a good man with a 20 can clean up a poor shot with a 12 but again, we're comparing apples and apples.

Bottom line..........whatever floats your boat suits me if it suits you.

Dutch

"fool hens"?

OK, I have to break it easy to you guys out there. The REAL ruffed grouse is in the East. ( We do recognize that Wisconsin and Minnesota have ruffed grouse but they are an exception!) ( Now, because I am the honest person I am, I'll admit that our grouse in Spring behave like chickens. Believe me, they change into another bird by September!)

Gatogordo:

Thanks for some interesting comments. I had enjoyed my argument with Dutch -but freely admit that so far as having a scientific basis - that I was almost winging it. I always had suspected that it stood to reason that a 12's pattern would be thicker if only because more shot came out the muzzle. That alone would have made me the lifelong user of a 12 that I was. ( I hunted geese along a river where they flew down the river at top speed and were a good 35-40 yards out and the idea of using a 20 -or even a 16 {a fairly popular gauge when I was young, in fact, more used than the 20 by far until the 20's loads were beefed up} just wouldn't have occurred to me (or anyone I knew) I confess that I am astonished in old age to learn that the energy behind pellets, whether from a 12 or a 20 is the same. I still have some difficulty getting my mind around the concept that a larger explosive force doesn't produce more energy - but then, humans for a couple of thousand years "knew" that a heavier object fell faster than a lighter one - until Galileo show different! So I guess I'll have to accept it! Anyway thanks for an interesting post.

Galileo? Ya think maybe it was that Newton fella and the story about the apple?

quote:

Originally posted by Joezed:
Galileo? Ya think maybe it was that Newton fella and the story about the apple?

Naw, Newton invented the " fruit Newton!"

And Galileo moved to California where he became ''That little old winemaker, me.'' Jeez, I love history.

quote:

OK, I have to break it easy to you guys out there. The REAL ruffed grouse is in the East.

But the REAL upland bird hunting is in the West.

I've taken 13 species of upland game birds this season.

And for waterfowl I'm at 17 species for the season.

Mostly on public lands too.

Joezed:

It was Galileo who conducted the actual experiments to find out. It was Newton who explained why it was so.

I suspect you are confusing Newton's laws of motion with his laws of gravitation. Newton's first law of motion was influenced by Galileo while his laws of gravitation were not; the latter addresses your comment on heavy objects and how they fall.

Joezed:

As I have said before in this thread - I am not trained in the sciences. I yield to you, Sir!

No need for that. Your post sent me back to the books and that's always good.

Excellent posts throughout. I have learned today. Thank you.

C'mon guys, just get 16s and settle!

I own 2 matched Berreta AL-2s. One in 12 and the other in 20. Each has it's place. I love the 12 for larger birds and you can't beat the 20 for dove sized birds. Why settle on one, get both and be happy.

Bulldog -- As several have said, a 12ga is more versital and if you are shooting beyond about 40 yards the 12ga will usually have an advantage due to increased payload and/or pattern efficiency, but if your shooting is inside of that a 20ga w/ 3" capabilities will handle most all bird killin' (except maybe large birds like turkey and geese) just as good as 12ga if you use the right load/pellet and it is choked right for the distance/birds you shoot. Yes, you can shoot turkeys and geese with a 20ga but the 12ga will usually be more effective for those birds. So, unless you are a long-range waterfowler or dedicated turkey hunter that likes to take long shots a 20ga will probably fill you wing-shooting needs. Remember what Oberfell and Thompson said, "its the load that kills -- not the gauge". It's mostly a distance thing not firepower.

You really need to have both! I do most of my bird hunting (dove, rail, quail, pheasant, huns, sharp-tail, chickens, teal, some ducks, etc.) and clay target shooting (skeet, sporting) with a 20ga and use my 12ga for serious duck, goose and turkey hunting and some occasional trap shooting.

As far as 12ga vs 20ga efficientcy, I will use a previous post of mine where I did some patterning to illistrate what you might find.

Here are some pattern results that compared two similar 1-ounce #7 1/2 lead factory loads through both 20ga and 12ga guns. They aren't exactly the same load (not sure how you could do that anyway), but close enough to show the patterning differences of the two gauges. Patterns are the average of five shots, 30" post-shot scribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, and the in-shell pellet count is the average of five shells.

20ga Browning Invector-plus 28" barrel w/ Briley flush chokes
1 oz of #7 1/2 lead (349 pellets) @ 1,165 fps

30 YARDS
CYL / 179 (51%)
SK / 221 (63%)
IC / 249 (71%)

12ga Browning Invector-plus 28" barrel w/ Briley flush chokes
1 oz of #7 1/2 lead (344 pellets) @ 1,180 fps

30 YARDS
CYL / 194 (56%)
SK / 248 (72%)
IC / 288 (84%)

In this pattern test, the larger 12 bore showed it was more “efficient” (about 5-10%) than the 20 bore. Many factors influence patterning, but I believe this patterning shows the general principle of larger bores being more “efficient” than smaller bores. The 12ga load is a target load while the 20ga is more of a field load so the pellets may not be of the same quality (antimony content) which could affect patterning and allow the 12ga to shoot this particular load better than the 20ga.

However, the fact that the larger bore is more “efficient” doesn’t necessarily mean it will be more “effective”. Effectiveness is more dependant on matching pattern density and pellet energy to the bird and distance you are shooting than the loads pattern efficiency.

Within a reasonable distance (40 yards), the effectiveness exhibited with the same payload and shot size between 20 and 12 bores would be insignificant as long as they were both choked properly to attain similar pattern densities (see 20ga IC compared to 12ga SK) at the distance they were used. That said, the larger bore can usually do that with less choke constriction and maintain that at a longer distance.

Good luck.

Yes, the bigger bore of the 12 means broader pattern and less shot colummn. The same reason all competeitive shooting is done with a 12.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Yes, the bigger bore of the 12 means broader pattern and less shot colummn. The same reason all competeitive shooting is done with a 12.

Except maybe 20ga, 28ga and 410 skeet!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by gerry375:
Gatogordo:

I still have some difficulty getting my mind around the concept that a larger explosive force doesn't produce more energy.

Gerry,

Correct me if I err but I don't think that's what Dutch said. A larger amount of propellant does produce more energy. A greater mass (heavier shot load) in a 12 gauge absorbs the additional energy in getting the shot column up to speed. The amount of powder necessary to accelerate a 1 1/4 oz 12 gauge shot load to a given velocity should be greater that the amount of the same powder necessary to launch a 7/8 oz load from a 20 at the same velocity.

Theoretically and all other factors being equal, the same weight of the same powder in either gauge should move an equal mass at the same velocity, but are all other factors equal? Wouldn't the barrel constriction in the 20 gauge, caused by moving the same mass in a narrower barrel, create more friction and require more energy per pellet out of the 20 gauge than out of the wider barrel 12 gauge?

I agree with the others on the ballistics after shot leaves the barrel. Starting at a given distance from the muzzle free from all factors caused by barrel and blast, there is no logical reason why the source of propulsion should cause two identical bodies moving at the same velocity to perform differently.

Any thoughts?

quote:

Theoretically and all other factors being equal, the same weight of the same powder in either gauge should move an equal mass at the same velocity, but are all other factors equal? Wouldn't the barrel constriction in the 20 gauge, caused by moving the same mass in a narrower barrel, create more friction and require more energy per pellet out of the 20 gauge than out of the wider barrel 12 gauge?

I agree with the others on the ballistics after shot leaves the barrel. Starting at a given distance from the muzzle free from all factors caused by barrel and blast, there is no logical reason why the source of propulsion should cause two identical bodies moving at the same velocity to perform differently.

Any thoughts?

I agree that the smaller diameter barrel must have some effect on ballistics. However, your final paragraph assumes that difference disappears once the charge leaves the barrel. I disagree. The wad and the shot string are going to be different even for the same amount of pellets, so the ballistics even outside the barrel will differ between gauges.

Anyway, the answer to the question from my perspective is to avoid the Red Label and buy a good semi-auto like the Beretta Technys or a Benelli SBE. The beauty of those Italian semi-autos is that they are extremely durable, easy to clean, will shoot everything from 7/8 oz. trap loads to 3 oz. HeviShot goose loads. Most importantly, you can alter their fit with shims that are provided with each gun. You probably won't be disappointed with either the Ruger or the Beretta, but you get 3 shots with the Beretta and if you ever get to a wingshooting hotspot like Argentina, you won't hurt yourself with recoil from the first day. The only advantages I see for an O/U is that they are easier to clean and are easier to make sure they are safe (just break the action open and everyone knows what state of battery your gun is in.

quote:

Originally posted by Ratltrap:

quote:

Theoretically and all other factors being equal, the same weight of the same powder in either gauge should move an equal mass at the same velocity, but are all other factors equal? Wouldn't the barrel constriction in the 20 gauge, caused by moving the same mass in a narrower barrel, create more friction and require more energy per pellet out of the 20 gauge than out of the wider barrel 12 gauge?

I agree with the others on the ballistics after shot leaves the barrel. Starting at a given distance from the muzzle free from all factors caused by barrel and blast, there is no logical reason why the source of propulsion should cause two identical bodies moving at the same velocity to perform differently.

Any thoughts?

I agree that the smaller diameter barrel must have some effect on ballistics. However, your final paragraph assumes that difference disappears once the charge leaves the barrel. I disagree. The wad and the shot string are going to be different even for the same amount of pellets, so the ballistics even outside the barrel will differ between gauges.

Agreed. My only issue was whether a pellet is being shot "harder" out of a 12 over a 20 if they each start at the same velocity.

quote:

if you ever get to a wingshooting hotspot like Argentina, you won't hurt yourself with recoil from the first day.

Is there a noticeable recoil diff between O/U and semi-auto?

quote:

Originally posted by wretch:

quote:

Originally posted by Ratltrap:

quote:

Theoretically and all other factors being equal, the same weight of the same powder in either gauge should move an equal mass at the same velocity, but are all other factors equal? Wouldn't the barrel constriction in the 20 gauge, caused by moving the same mass in a narrower barrel, create more friction and require more energy per pellet out of the 20 gauge than out of the wider barrel 12 gauge?

I agree with the others on the ballistics after shot leaves the barrel. Starting at a given distance from the muzzle free from all factors caused by barrel and blast, there is no logical reason why the source of propulsion should cause two identical bodies moving at the same velocity to perform differently.

Any thoughts?

I agree that the smaller diameter barrel must have some effect on ballistics. However, your final paragraph assumes that difference disappears once the charge leaves the barrel. I disagree. The wad and the shot string are going to be different even for the same amount of pellets, so the ballistics even outside the barrel will differ between gauges.

Agreed. My only issue was whether a pellet is being shot "harder" out of a 12 over a 20 if they each start at the same velocity.

quote:

if you ever get to a wingshooting hotspot like Argentina, you won't hurt yourself with recoil from the first day.

Is there a noticeable recoil diff between O/U and semi-auto?

Yes. If the autoloader is gas operated that will absorb some of the recoil.

I've hunted birds on every continent (Less Aus & Anta.)

For all around the 12 still rules. I have 12s in my bettery that weigh from a scant 5lbs. 10 oz (my Westley Richards built on a 16 frame) up to 10 lbs ( Winchester Model 21 Live pigeon gun).

You see, the 12 is the most versatile and if you are hunting outside of your home region, 12 ammo is EVERYWHERE!

And speaking of ammo, you can get everything from 7/8 oz #9 (dove, quail) up to 3 1/2" 1 7/8 oz BBs, slugs, Buckshot etc...

The 12 is simply the best overall!

JW

Also,

If you are on a budget, I'd recommend a Benelli SBE / Beretta Extrema as these will handle just about anything you put through them...

...got some extra $$ sitting around, get a Perazzi MX-8 / MX-2000 with 30 /32" clays barrels and Mobil chokes (have your barrel man knock out the forcing cones and you have a 3 1/2 capable O/U) and get an extra set of lightweight Skeet barels with Mobile chokes 28" for birds and Skeet shooting - There's your d0-all 12 O/U for under 12K.
(good re-sale too)
JW