I am just getting into wingshooting and am trying to decide if I want a 12 or 20 gauge. Is there anything one can do that the other can't?

Any experience would be helpful.

I have been looking at the beretta teknys gold and the ruger red label. Any experience/advice on these would be great as well.

Get a 12 it's more versatile.There are many loads from light target to buckshot and slugs that will take anything from dove to goose and deer and various target games.My Beretta and Benelli are 7 1/4 lbs so can be carried in the field easily .They are 3" and enough weight to handle full 3" rounds comfortably.

As already stated anything a 20 will do a 12 will do and in the case of larger birds the 12 is better; however if you are doing all your shooting over decoys or any upland game a 20ga works great, and in the case of the Ruger RL the 20 is a very neat package- I sure like mine.
I use my 20ga Red Label for everything but ducks and geese, then it is an 870 rem 12 ga.

For upland birds I like a light and handy SXS. This eliminates the 12 ga, in my opinion. There have been a few light 12's made SXS but they look clumsy to me and the looks of a gun matter to me.

I prefer 16 ga as a max. upland gun.

Even many of the 20 ga SXS's are too muzzle heavy for me. I don't like the new trend to choke tube inserts at all in a double.

Here is my favorite grouse gun. It's a 16X16 with 23.5" barrels.

What kind of birdshooting are you going to be doing. That can help with an analysis. If one of your aims is to go waterfowling and shoot geese, you better stick with a 12 gauge. If it is quail, grouse etc. then 20 will serve you well and want for nothing.

Bulldog,

do you plan on hunting over flushing dogs or pointing dogs?

Hi

I chose a o/u 12/70, when picking out a shotgun for myself. I have hunted all kinds of game from grouse, woodgrouse, small birds, crows, to hares, fox and roe with it. And I have shot quite a number of clays with the gun. It is a cheap italian gun, called Emilo Rizzini. It is pretty much a standard o/v from Italy. Single trigger, choke tubes, no ejector, 70cm barrel.....

A 12 gauge is easy to find all kinds of ammo to all kind of hunting, recoil and weight of the gun isn't much to bother with in my eyes. Around 3.2kg is my ideal. I seldom shot heavier loads than 35grams. So any longer chamber than 70mm I see as a waste. I think this is a 2 3/4 chamber in english?? With loads of 30 or 28 grams you can takle most grouse size bird at any reasonble hunting distanse. And the bigger gun mostly have a steadier swing than a light 20. Ofcouse you can build a 20 with a feel and swing as good as any 12 and the caliber is capable of any game that you can take with a 12/70 if you but the right ammo in it, but it's much harder to find. I prefer to take the easy route.

I belive that a o/u is easier to shot, because of the single barrel, which gives a better sighting plane in my eyes. A pump or a semi gives the same advantage in sighting, but here in Norway you can't put any more than 2 shots in a shotgun, so there is no point of having a magasine on your shot gun. I also belive that 2 shots is all you need when wingshoting. And if you need to, you can reload a o/u quite fast. Also I think dobble barrel shotguns are better looking than pump or semis, but this is just a personal preferens, just like that I prefer brunets, before blonds .

I think the two guns you are mentionend are great guns. Maybe you could look at the beretta o/u guns as well? Either way make sure that you get a gun that fits you.

Johan

Since I am just getting into it I really don't know if I will mainly be doing one thing...ie geese, quail, ducks, over dogs etc. I will probably try a little of everything. What I have been planning is to get a 12 ga in semi auto and a O/U in either 12 or 20. the main reason for getting both is that in a lot of African countries they don't allow semmi-auto's, only SXS or O/U. The biggest fowl in Africa is probably the Francolin or Guines Fowl. I have never used a 20 on them. Only 12, so don't know how it would work. Basically the semi would be for high volume shooting and the O/U for low volume shooting and Africa.

Does anyone have experience with a 20 ga on African Fowl?

Get a 12. Anything the 20 can do, the 12 will do better.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Get a 12. Anything the 20 can do, the 12 will do better.

I don't agree. There are so many different ways to use a shotgun but this scene is about all that I have.


Now thats a pretty view of a farm in Southern Vermont, USA. The point is that I don't have nearly as much money as you do and on top of that I have spent much of my time and effort on a hunting place there. The woods that you see do not have much game in them but it's still hunting and the harder the hunting in some cases the greater the reward.

So I carry very handy shotguns or a drilling there. I have 12 ga shotguns and they are larger, heavier, bulkier and if I get a shot off faster with my handy smaller gun it's as effective as the shot from a larger gun.

Now to each his own but this little 5.75# Bernadelli 20ga SXS is so sweet for those hills you see in the background. Those hills are steeper than they look by the way.


So show me your gun. I give you a $100,000 budget and maybe more if it's an English best. It has to be a 12ga however and you had better wear your Vibram soles.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Get a 12. Anything the 20 can do, the 12 will do better.

This is very true. It includes stretching your arms a bit longer after carrying a 12 afield for 5 or 6 hrs...

For someone looking for a "do-all" first shotgun, I'd say a fairly lightweight (6 to 6 3/4 lbs) 3" auto 12 ga would be fairly hard to argue with. Something like a 391 or Browning Gold with a 28" barrel. It would give you the ability to use the shims to fit the stock to your dimensions, and the reduced recoil is a great benefit. JMO, Dutch.

I have been looking at the Teknys Gold...Any experiences?

Not specifically with that model. My wife is very fond of her 391 Gold (pre-optima Tecknys). Overall, the 391 line's got a pretty good rep. Several guys at the club shoot one for sporting clays, and that's a pretty fair work out for a gun. No problems I am aware of. HTH, Dutch.

Bulldog, I'd say it's a bit like golf with putters and drivers. Starting out you shouldn't need more than about say.....no more than 12 and no less than 4 of each. Most of my shooting is a little bit of pheasant and quail with a smaller amount of trap and 5 stand.
I don't own anything really expensive with a Browning o/u Ultra XS 12 ga. being the most. That said, I do own quite a FEW, shotguns, not Brownings, and definately more than I NEED, though I've convinced my wife otherwise; she's so wise My personal favorite of the moment is a beretta 390 12 ga. sporting that I bought used off of Gunbroker. It holds 3 shells, the stock can be set up/down and sideways to fit the way you mount the gun. It's a little heavier than the newer 391 but not unpleasant to walk corn fields after pheasant and being the youngest of 3 brothers; I am still the dog! I have never tried the 3 inch shells but it will cycle light 7/8 loads right up to the heavy 1 1/4 oz. field loads with no problem. So far, it has never jammed or failed to cycle. It will do nothing that my 870s, or U/Os or cheap little s/s will do, but it just might be the one I would keep if I had to get rid of the others. At the moment that is. Tomorrow, all bets are off. There are so many good choices right now, buy the one that fits and pleases the eye. When you've shot that one awhile and the eye starts to wander, buy another one. Then repeat, ad nfinitum.


This may not help, but just remember, other than the confusion and consternation over the choice; buying that first shotgun is just a whole lot of fun!! Good luck with whatever you choose. JP

quote:

My personal favorite of the moment is a beretta 390 12 ga. sporting that I bought used off of Gunbroker.

Take a look at Beretta's "new" 3901 American's.

I'm gonna buy another 20 soon and that'll be it, my Beretta 303 20 ga. has been commandeered by the girlfriend type person.

As for 12 vs. 20, I use a 20 for upland and a 12 for waterfowl. But my 20 with Hevi-Shot handloads is more effective on geese than any steel load out of a 12.

Wow Skinner, thanks! Just when I knew for sure I couldn't even afford a used 20 ga. Urika from Gunbroker, Beretta seems to have upped the ante with a wood version of their 3901's. I see their msrp is 850. Wonder what the dealers will be asking for them? Bulldog, before you jump, you should look over the edge at one of these; could be what you're looking for. Good luck again!

Isn't the "wood" on the beretta's just plastic covered in a wood pattern?

You can buy the 3901 at Wally world for around $500, last time I checked. It's a great value. Not something I would recommend for a hard core Sporting Clays shooter (for any number of trivial reasons), but a great "do-all" gun for 99% of the population.

As far as the wood, some Beretta stocks ARE "Xtra wood", wich is indeed a laminate onto a ugly-duckling piece of wood. Not all are, and the Wally-World version is plain synthetic, anyway. HTH, Dutch.

The Beretta 391 is offered in the Urika and Teknys models. The Teknys is offered in Wood and X-tra Wood (Wooden stock with 7 layers of a film patterned Coating). The Urika is offered in Wood, X-Tra Wood and synthetic stocks (Camo patterns or Gray-Black synthetic Stock. I personally have 3 Beretta Auto-loaders (303, 391 Urika (Wood Stock), Teknys (X-Tra Wood Stock). All three are 12 Ga and I am quite pleased with them all. I prefer the Urika as my favorite for the following reasons: Light weight, balance, low-recoil and dependability.
The 12 Ga has more versatility than a 20 Ga in you may choose loads from slightly less than 7/8 oz up to 2 oz loads. Hands down the 12 Ga rules. The big difference is the 20 Ga Berreta weighs 5.9 lbs compared to 7.4 lbs for the 12 Ga in the Urika models. My choice is the 12 Ga.

Aktoklat, there are several field models of the Urika 12 ga that are much lighter. My wife's is under 7 lbs. FWIW, Dutch.

Dutch,
You are probably correct. I got my information form the 2005 Beretta Catalog. I have noticed several errors in MFG's catalogs. It seems they farm the catalog out and the proofing isn't always top-notch.

Bulldog 563:

There is one thing that the 12 can do over the 20 -and that is to "reach out". For the obvious reason that a 12 ga. carries more powder ( in high base loads) it can reach out to a duck that is just a little too far outside for a 20 and most definitely, a 12 will kill geese at any range better than a 20. This is not open to argument with anyone who has hunted geese. If you are hunting pheasants,a bird that can be like a battleship when shot at, maybe (and I say only "maybe") a 12 might drop him at longer ranges (like 35 yards) better than a 20. Where the 20 is really a supreme shotgun in my opinion is in hunting ruffed grouse ("partridge"). You will pick up that extra split second (after you missed the first shot) to get off another shot at him/her/ (The females are every bit as quick) Whatever you do - keep in mind that the spread of the pattern of a 12 and a 20 are the same. (The 12's pattern is thicker (usually through the center) and, of course, reaches out further because of the bigger powder load. I guess what i want to say in my longwinded fashion is that it depends on what you want to hunt.

Savage 99, I like your choice of grouse guns. I have several, only with hammers in 16 gauge. My rifle barrels are 9.3x72. Tom

Just thought I would give you guys an update. I went for a Beretta teknys gold in 12

Should be good for CA wingshooting trip at the end of the month. How are slugs on bores?

I have a 12 ga Urika...damn fine shotgun!! It kills big birds (Canadas) as well as any 3.5" or a 10 Ga. I have also killed geese just as dead with a 20 gauge 3" with hevi-shot in an 870 or back in the old days a 3/4oz load of lead #5s in a 28 ga 870 out of a Modified tube under 35 yds also killed geese really dead.

If you could only have one gun, you could do a lot worse (within reason) than a 20 ga for EVERYTHING!!

Bulldog563:

Wow! You are asking a question that covers the whole range of shotgun shooting!

Quick review - The 12 and the 20 both throw a "pattern" that is equal in size - but the 12 throws more pellets within that pattern. The 12 also throws those pellets harder (because it has more powder to push out those pellets) Forgive me for sounding like I'm treating you like an idiot. I don't mean to -but sometimes other very experienced other shooters need to be reminded of fundamentals.

I go with Saeed (and I'm 75 and was shooting shotguns since I was 15) Anything the 20 can do the 12 can do better. Of course, it's fun to carry a light weight 20 and hunt ruffed grouse - but first learn how to shoot ruffed grouse at all - and for that, you will have to pay your dues - and miss - and miss. Why the 12 if ruffed grouse are shot close in? Because the 12 will push into the leaves of the tree the grouse just flew towards and knock him down. (Grouse do not take shot at all. A couple of pellets will bring him down) I have knocked down pheasants at perhaps 35 yards with a 12. That's a bird that is like a battleship because he can take shot. Would a 20 do that? I won't say it wouldn't - because I never tried - and I only speak of what I personally have done. In my opinion - it wouldn't. Why not start off with a proven shotgun and if you want bthereafter to make it harder for yourself (as a sportsman) then consider the 20.

quote:

The 12 also throws those pellets harder (because it has more powder to push out those pellets)

Nu-uh! Energy is 1/2 mxVxV. Doesn't matter whether that pellet was loaded in a 12 or a 20, if it comes out of the barrel at 1200 fps, it has the same energy throughout it's trajectory. The entire shot charge from a 12 will have more energy, simply because it has more mass. From that perspective, the birds will be hit with more energy, because they will be hit with more pellets (assuming the same choke). Each pellet, however, has the same amount of energy.

That said, this Fall I watched a hunting buddy break down a pheasant at 70 yards with 1.5 oz of #4's from an auto-5 with a full choke. I've taken pheasant at 40 plus yards with my Full choked 20 ga. Elsie, stone dead in the air. With tight chokes, good loads, both have a lot of reach-out-and-get them, but the 12 will have an effective pattern farther out.

The 20 won't do what the 12 will, but the only difference is the weight of the charge. Within 30 yards, there's little difference. JMO, Dutch.

I agree with Dutch. One other point. The 12 gauge has more powder in it and in the case of heavier shot loads, it needs more powder to make the shot go the same velocity as the lighter 20 gauge with a lighter payload. If you examine hi velocity hunting loads, the velocity is virtually the same between the 12 and the 20.

Dutch, you are correct about the energy of each pellet. One #4 pellet from a 12 and oine #4 pellet from a 20 hit with the same energy.
Most everytime a 2o works great.

It's usually a matter of taste, as both gauges are efficient enough for mixed shooting.

Personally I use a light 6½-7 pound 12 gauge sbs loaded with light 1 ounce loads. Depending on shot size I can take everthing from quail to roe deer with that gun. It has length and balance fitting me, but I find most 20-gauge sbs to short and tiny. I presume it has some to do with proportion between my own 6 ft length and the size of the gun. A 20-gauge with longer barrels would fit better, however.

The 16-gauge has been mentioned before, and indeed it is the perfect compromise which have the advantages of both 12 and 20 gauge, but none of the disadvantages.

Fritz

I hunt mostly upland game, and have almost never hunted with a 12 gauge for 20 years or more. The one exception is for turkey hunting. I seem to kill just as many quail, pheasants, etc. and with a lot lighter gun. I've shot every bird this year with a 28 ga. including three days limit on late season SD pheasants.

Long live the 28 ga!!! In the hands of a shooter it's all you need!!

Dutch:

It does matter! Putting more propulsion behind #6 shot (to take one example) counts more -where there is more #6 shot - like in a 12 ga. The pattern is thicker - and the energy behind each pellet lasts longer. Would you seriously argue that a pheasant can be dropped at 35 yards as easily with a 20 as with a 12? (yes, I know he's already difficult at that range) I like the 20 and think it's a great shotgun but I always inclined towards the 12 because it gave me an edge. ( Even in shooting at ruffed grouse close in during early season the 12 would go through the leaves and I only needed a few pellets to drop him) Many hunters prefer the 20 because it's light. More power to them. Like I said, I always wanted that "edge"!

quote:

Dutch:

It does matter! .........the energy behind each pellet lasts longer.

Nope. Lead doesn't have a memory. The moment the pellet leaves the barrel (12 or 20) it is only subject to the laws of physics -- aerodynamics and gravity. It doesn't remember what size barrel it left. FWIW, Dutch.

Dutch:

I think we may be talking at cross purposes here and I'm prepared to be wrong but I do have one more argument. One of Newton's Laws says something about a "body set in motion continues.." Certainly gravity affects the pellet in the instant it leaves the muzzle - but surely that effect of gravity (and aerodynamics) is affected by the extent to which it was forceably propelled out the muzzle - and a 12 does ignite more powder, surely? A rocket leaving a NasA launch pad has its trajectory and travel affected by the force of the rocket engine, doesn't it?

BTW, my compliments to you for being somebody with whom I can have a disagreement without it becoming just a swapping of insults. ( I confess that you do have me thinking so I don't want to get too far out on a limb in disagreeing with you)

Gerry, thank you. Likewise.

Bigger Jet Effect? We are still talking about lead pellets right? I just loaded a couple of boxes tonight, but maybe I should be looking for the two-stage booster pellets next time... LOL!


OK, let's try it from this angle.

You fire a 20 and a 12, and they both measure 1200 fps at the chronograph at 3 feet from the muzzle. There's no little booster rockets on the lead. Nothing acts on the little pellets but the kinetic energy they posess (one s or two?), gravity and air resistance. Once they leave the muzzle (well, ok, once they leave the wad and the muzzle jet), that's all there is. Like I said before, lead doesn't have a memory.

1200 fps from a 12, 16, 20, 28, or 410; it's all sixes. Each pellet has the same departing velocity, and therfore the same energy, and therefore the same trajectory. The only difference is the number of pellets: the pattern density. Because of that, the 12 DOES deliver more energy PER SHOT, but only in direct proportion to the extra number of pellets in the load. FWIW, Dutch.