There are deals on English guns, but without being to hold them or see them in person prices are all over the place. I’d be using for clays and doves more than likely.

Please advise.

For what you’re looking for, I’d say either of the two CZ sxs’s. I’ve shot and sold many of them. Nice quality guns for the price, under a grand.

I have never liked the Huglu guns, seems cheaply made compared to my japan guns.

https://www.gunsinternational....cfm?gun_id=101123584

This guy is pretty sweet.

https://www.gunsinternational....cfm?gun_id=101178007

This one is cool as well, and nitro proved with a 2 3/4” chamber.

What a great topic.

This is a world where you really have to be think a lot about what you're doing and how you'll use the gun.

Do you reload shotgun shells? Do you buy your ammo by the case online, by the box at the shooting range, or by the value pack at Wal-Mart? (there's nothing wrong with that!)

My thumbnail answer is: the Turkish guns range from mediocre and middling to very fancy. But more are made every day, many buyers continue to be leery (and will be for a decade more, at least), and none of them hold their value worth a darn. But you can stuff a 3" magnum steel shot duck load in them and not blink an eye. At the same time, the bottom is falling out of the market for classic English guns, and that's going to continue. Even in one of the strongest economies in the last 50 years, the prices for 12 gauge English doubles is dropping; what do you think is going to happen during the next recession?

The "1980s Japanese SxS" seem to be holding their value better than anything else in your price range; that includes the SKBs, the Browning BSS, and the Winchester Model 23. If well-bought, you should not have much trouble flipping the gun for a small loss (or even a small gain) if you don't like it.

The easy answer is to go on Gunbroker and buy a used CZ Bobwhite or Sharptail. You can get them in basically any configuration and gauge combo, they have choke tubes, and you can shoot steel shot. There is a significant depreciation hit, so even if it's only had a case of shells through it, you'll save several hundred bucks and be at half of your budget. Comparatively, you'll be hard pressed to find any other decent 28 gauge (or maybe 20 gauge) sxs in your price range. And if your local gun range is now requiring non-tox shot, you're stuck with buying a new SxS.

That Atkin Grant and Lange gun does look nice. It's value is beat down for a few reasons: it's a 16 gauge which is generally a red-headed stepchild in the US, it's had the stock cut very short and now has a thick black spacer added and a black recoil pad, and (as you can see from the photos of the bottom of the barrels) it was originally proofed at 3 1/4 tons per square inch. Without going down a huge rabbit hole, know that that means that after some imperfect and imprecise adjustments and conversions, the working pressure for that gun is about 9700 psi. In other words; you ain't buying shells for that gun at Wal-Mart. And if you do put a promo load 16 gauge shell in there, it probably won't blow the gun up, but it will be above the stated working pressure of the gun. While there are low pressure (light recoil) 12 gauge loads made by all the major makers, and there are probably low pressure/light recoil loads made in 20 gauge, I am not aware of any low pressure 16 gauge loads that you can buy at a big box store. The only commercial maker of low pressure 16s that I know of is RST. There may be a few people importing some English-market low-pressure 16 gauge shells too. So if you buy that gun, go ahead and buy several cases of RSTs. They are great shells at a reasonable price and have a huge variety of shot, case styles, loads, etc. but you have to plan ahead and buy them mail order.

The second gun is from basically an "unknown" Birmingham maker. It could be called a trade gun or a gameskeeper gun; it's the sort of thing an aristocrat would have purchased for his game wardens/gamekeepers; the most basic type of a boxlock non-ejector gun. Or may have supplied to guests (although for driven game you would usually have ejector guns). It doesn't have the stock issues, and it's a 20 gauge, so that's good. But it's oddly choked (skeet and full) which hampers its price. And we do not know the proofs, but my best guess, judging by the weight of the gun (less than 6 lbs) is that it's also proofed at 3 1/4 tons per square inch or maybe only 3 tons per square inch (about 9000 psi). Either way you're going to need to shoot RSTs or light 20 gauge loads. Luckily, Winchester makes a AA Low Recoil, Low Noise load (7/8 ounce of shot at a mere 980 fps) and I think Cabelas/Herters is selling a low recoil 3/4 ounce 20 gauge load.

Or, if you reload AND you feel like going to the basement to crank out a box everytime you want to shoot, then you can solve the ammo problem (assuming you can get 16 gauge hulls for that Atkin Grant & Lange gun . . .).

The Japanese guns, in my opinion, are holding their value for precisely these reasons. There is still a core of upland hunters who want a SxS, but also want to be able to buy off the shelf ammo for it. They don't want to risk it with a Turkish gun, but don't want to have to fiddle with short chambered American classic guns, British guns that require low pressure ammo, LC Smiths with invariable already have cracked stock heads, Parkers that are as complicated as a pocket watch, etc. On top of that (and the inability to find replacement parts), most classic American doubles have too much drop at the comb for modern American shooters. So the 1980s and 1990s Japanese guns are in the sweet spot.

But, if you reload or are comfortable buying all your shells online, the English boxlock market (especially in the 16 and 12 gauge) continues to fall and there are some nice guns to be had. This guy (SKB) on the forum usually has some nice basic English boxlocks either listed in the classifieds or on his website: http://forums.accuratereloadin...721045642#1721045642

Circling back, you really need to think about what you want to do with the gun. You said shoot doves and clays; both of those can be high-volume shooting endeavors. But the two guns you linked to from GunsInternational are lightweight "game guns" which were designed for carrying all day in the upland fields. Neither would be very fun for a 100 shell round of sporting clays.

On the other hand, this Browning BSS for sale on the forum right now would be perfect for sporting clays SxS competitions; 12 gauge, 30" barrels, 9 Carlson choke tubes, an adjustable comb, and a recoil pad. I nearly made up a BSS in just this configuration about 10 years ago. It's not a classic, it's not original, and it will handle NOTHING like the two guns you listed; but you can shoot any reasonable off-the-shelf 12 gauge shell in it, you'll never worry about damage with reasonable use, and it's heavy enough that you can shoot clay target sports with it.
http://forums.accuratereloadin...1078981/m/2131039742

I don't think I actually answered your question.

I agree the Huglu guns can seem a bit "off" but some of the higher end Turkish guns from the other maker (AKUS or something?) are finished pretty nice; they are made for Kimber, Smith & Wesson, and sold under the Dickinson name. And there is no legitimate reason to think that a gun made in 2019 in Turkey with CNC machines and modern steel and locally-sourced Turkish walnut is mechanically inferior to a 100 year old gun made in Connecticut or upstate New York when most of the country barely had electric lighting. It flies in the face of science, engineering, and reason and simply appeals to nationalistic pride and nostalgia.

So just buy a 12 gauge Ithaca NID, Fox Sterlingworth, or modern CZ; pay no more than $800 for it, and if you don't like it, sell it. If you fall in love with shooting double guns, then you've got time to think through the myriad of issues out there while you trade or buy into something else; whether that is a higher end Turkish gun like a Dickinson, a Browning BSS or Winchester 23, a well-used Beretta 470 or 471, or a classic English double.

And we haven't even gotten to the Spanish SxSs yet! With hard shopping you could get a pair of reasonable quality 1980s Spanish boxlocks for $2,000 or perhaps a nice (but basic) AyA. Which would be in the British game gun style, but would be proofed for modern loads.

I have a several doubles currently, all are miroku o/u’s. I have owned at least ten more over the years.

My desire for a sxs is 100% nostalgic, and I really do love the wand like aspects of old guns.

That said, I do really need one that is proofed for modern loads, though I am not adverse to buying enough rst shells to last a couple of years at one time.

Thank you very much for the info. Your friends b-as is awesome, I would prefer double triggers.

No mention of the German guns.
Occasionally, a Merkel 47 or a Simpson will show up around 2M.
Also some of the older 16 gauge boxlocks are around. Most of these that I've seen have cheek pieces which many people find a turn off but worth a try.
I have two 16 gauge GECO shotguns. One by Sauer and Son and one of Belgium manufacture. Both have cheek pieces but they fit me well. Initially, shot RST 2 1/2 shells but had the chambers and forcing cones lengthened to 2 3/4. Also opened up the chokes to M/IC. These have thousands of rounds of skeet/sporting. clays/hunting without a hitch
I've owned Merkels (20 gauge) and in my opinion they are built for lifetimes of use.

I shoot a Urgarchea in 12 bore. Very sweet + light w/ straight butt + splinter forend.Swings beautifully + is a pleasure to carry as well as shoot.Only caveat here is that the last I noticed;they were going for $3500.00.good luck on your quest;miracles DO happen.

Colin,

I have a Thomas Bland 2 1/2" nitro proofed 12 bore on consignment at a local shop. I'm left handed, it's cast for a right hander and it don't shoot where I look, otherwise I'd never sell it. Shoots POA/POI for the right handers who have shot it. Includes a letter of provenance from Woodcock Hill indicating it was made in 1941 for the Ministry of Supply. PM me if you are interested. It will be well under $2000. Tight and on face.

Mart

I sent you a p.m.

Glad to hear your getting into SxS, can’t stand o/u. Except one, it’s a marlin 16gauge and when I throw it up I can’t deny the fit. Browning BSS, Fox, Lafever all great choices and many many dealers offer 3 day inspections. The latter 2 are affordable American classics. I have both and shoot em. The Browning is an every day go hunting machine. I carried mine 80% this season and killed a lot of birds. Since you peruse the gun sites, don’t be afraid, if it has an inspection window. I always make personal phone calls and make clear what I expect “to hunt it the day I receive!”. I picked up a dandy Cashmore 12 gauge this fall for 1650, killed 3 birds. But it’s so nice it’s not an every day shooter. That’s the Browning. Before this year I hunted a Lafever 20 gauge religiously. My young son got to hunt it this year. I don’t shoot much target. That’s for O/U concrete dwellers . Give me a SxS, Hunting ground, a pocket full of shells.

CHARGE!!

And I’d buy that Lang in a heartbeat. Sweet Sixteen!! Bring on the pottiges!!!

Have a look for a low mileage AyA boxlock, or even a no2 sidelock.

Have a look for a low mileage AyA boxlock, or even a no2 sidelock. In the U.K. £600 gets you a good No4 Boxlock ejector. They handle like a good English gun but good solid guns that go on for a long time.

There are a number of the basic/Grade 1 Ugartechea 12 bore boxlocks in that price range; somtimes for less than $1000. At the $1000+ range you should be able to get an upgraded gun with ejectors.

That would be a shotgun that is capable of handling modern, 2 3/4" lead loads.

The best value in a SxS gun under $2000, IMO, is a 'pre-owned' British boxlock from a Birmingham maker. I have owned a number of Brit SxS guns, from boxlock Langs to Dickson round actions and Atkin sidelock best guns. I have also owned, or currently own, double guns from a number of American, German, Japanese and Italian makers. But the value is with the Brit boxlock guns. They are well made, usually handle well and will last for a long time given even minimal care. The Lang 2-3/4" 16 gauge particularly appeals to me for several reasons. As long as the barrels are unpitted and in proof (a gunsmith can easily determine this) and you can buy shells for it, you are good to go.

In my 16s use Australian-made Winchester one ounce SuperX field loads (MV=1165 fps). They are reasonably priced and shoot well on game or targets. Available in 8s and 6s. I also hand load for my shotguns in 12, 16 and 20 gauge.

Welcome to the world of SxS game guns - they are wonderful wingshooting tools.

Unlike American/Spanish/Turkish/Japanese guns, most English guns were made to order, one at a time. So it's impossible to pick a maker or model to recommend. You have to pick a specific gun.

There are some exceptions, Greener for example (the most prolific English maker) made some pretty standard guns esp the Empire model, which is hell for stout and has the fewest moving parts of just about any boxlock conceived.

I will concur that you can buy a good quality English boxlock for under $1500 with extractors and under $2K with ejectors. Sidelocks are 2.5x the money for same maker/equivalent quality, rule of thumb. This would be in 12ga. Smaller gauges fetch a premium.

German guns are probably the best value for money, if somewhat heavy. The Sauer Royal, for example. Nothing wrong with Merkel but since everyone knows Merkel you are less likely to find a deal. If you want a 16, you won't pay a premium for a German gun.

Austrian guns tend to be of better quality and are more highly finished than other continental guns. SXS Austrian guns are not too common.

If you are a bit eccentric, French guns are usually "different" and many of them are very elegant. The Manufrance Ideal for example. Plenty of 16ga guns from the French makers.

Belgian guns are all over the map. Some are of poor quality, some are superb.

But for resale, English (or Scottish) is always the best bet. And don't bother with ejectors, they are probably the most likely to give you trouble, and on these vintage guns if you need a part you are going to have to make it.

I don't know how strict the $2K limit is, but have you considered a CSMC SxS? I have one in 20ga, RBL, Launch Edition with fitted case, screw in chokes etc. I am not an expert but I love the gun. It is newly manufactured, very attractive, and shoots well. I bought it from someone on this forum.
Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
I don't know how strict the $2K limit is, but have you considered a CSMC SxS? I have one in 20ga, RBL, Launch Edition with fitted case, screw in chokes etc. I am not an expert but I love the gun. It is newly manufactured, very attractive, and shoots well. I bought it from someone on this forum.
Peter

I’ve had my eye on a few on GB. Beautiful guns.

CSMC RBL is a $4K gun. The checkering is laser cut and on some of them the checkering is burned. Other than that it's a nice gun if you want something made in the last 10 years.

Of the American guns, there are plenty of good buys as long as you stick to 12ga. They get expensive, inordinately so in some cases, in the smaller gauges. Also unless you are a collector, avoid the high-condition original guns, they fetch an unwarranted premium and you can't use them for fear of depreciation. Most American guns are on the heavy side.

LC Smith is the only true sidelock and a good strong gun. Lefever sideplated gun is the most interesting gun, has adjustable barrel fit so no worries about "shooting loose", relatively few made, and the higher grades have very attractive engraving. E grade is a good buy. The Rem 1894 is probably the best buy of all the American guns and the closest to an English gun in design and appearance, eg the B grade can be had for $1K. Ithaca Flues are cheap and generally lighter than most. Unfortunately they look cheap too. Win 21 is way overpriced and not very aesthetic. Parkers are plentiful and a good buy in the lower grades, up to G grade. I personally don't care for the bug-eye hinge pin but you get used to it. Parkers have a lot of internal moving parts. AH Fox are pricier in general, the early A and B grades are affordable as is the Sterlingworth. Not the strongest action though. The good news is you can find parts for most of these guns as they are relatively standardized and they made thousands and thousands of them.

I recently picked up a Fox Strelingworth 20 Ga. with 28" tubes for less than $2K. You can find subgauge Sterlingworth guns under $2K without much problem.

Judging by my 30 years of using small gauge Fox guns and Brit boxlocks, they are more than adequately strong and can be bought at reasonable prices. If you long for a higher grade gun, they rapidly escalate in price.

I have a csmc in 20 ga, not for sal. Beautiful gun and I shoot it well. It’s the launch version. Believe I paid $3500 new. I’ve seen them on GB under $3000.

Colin, I sent a PM

A nice Simson or Belgian guild gun ... and you'll have plenty of change left over.

quote:

And don't bother with ejectors, they are probably the most likely to give you trouble, and on these vintage guns if you need a part you are going to have to make it.

I can't agree with that. At least not if the gun has what are known as Southgate ejectors. But, for sure, I wouldn't buy a gun if I lived in the USA with Perkes, Baker or Westley Box ejectors. But Southgate ejectors are usually bombproof.

A non-ejector gun in theory makes sense for the double gun shooting that I see on You Tube that takes place in the USA. I am assuming there's no driven shooting where you might shoot five, six or seven pheasants to your own gun on one drive alone?

In terms of good value "Brit" guns I'd look for anything made by Webley & Scott and also the pre-WWII BSA boxlocks. I wouldn't touch Cogswell & Harrison as the ejectors aren't Southgate type but another's.

On the continental guns I think that Arrieta or Ugartachea are less "cobby" in sidelock format than are AYA guns. But in the boxlock ejectors the AYA Yeoman Ejector or No4 are the better choice.

If you are a 16 gauge fan then simply the French 16 gauge guns are exquisite and you'll not get much better than something by Manufrance. I have a Model 28E which is a easy-opening ejector in that gauge.

Belgian guns can be best quality. Superb. But note also that many were made cheap from metal that wasn't as well hardened as it could be and sometimes lock up only on a Greener style cross bolt and no underbolt. Be careful examine Belgian guns carefully.

My two Francote’s Have ejectors. One has 750 rounds through them for the past three years. One has 750 total as of today,

No issues with the ejectors or guns. One cost just under 2k and the other 3K. Extractors are fine and may keep price down, but I would not pass on a solid gun bc of of ejectors.

I would pass on a vintage Parker single trigger gun due to repair concerns.

V Bernardelli SxS guns seem to be a good value.

I bought my middle son a Browning BSS in 12 G. when he was 13. He's 39 now. As everyone knows when an older brother tells you you can't do something (like, you can't handle the kick,etc.)younger brother goes that extra mile. He loved it then + still does.

I’ve got a few shotguns, some more expensive than others. And some more expensive than those! Purchased a Browning BSS from a forum member a couple years ago. It’s my go to hunting gun and I don’t like beaver tail forends. Maybe the fit is why I like it so much. Either way I can’t deny I have bonded with it. Browning BSS is a great shotgun.

There are a lot of AYAs on Guns International for 2K or just under.

Yes indeed the BSS is a great gun, but I agree for me personally. I do not like the beavertail forend. I shoot a Ugarchea 12. w./a splinter forend + straight buttstock. Works for me. But that's why they make Ford's +| Chevy's, Viva la difference.

I picked up a Remington Model 1900 for less than $400, 12ga 2-3/4 steel barrels with ejectors. Kind of a neat old gun. Amazingly it still has blueing and isn't rusted up. I can't wait to try it on dove this year.

May need to come on a predator hunt as backup just to get some use before bird season.


Barrels are 348 out of 511 pellet on one barrel and 350 out of 511 pellet out of the other. Maybe Improved Modified? They had an interesting way of figuring out choke back then...

I bought a Beretta Silver Hawk from an AR member; can't remember exactly what I paid but I think it was $1600-$1800. I love this shotgun; it is light and fits me perfectly.

I don't know if you found one yet, but Cabelas in Maine has a gorgeous unmolested Army&Navy 12 ga. that appears to have 95%+ original case colors and blue. Stock is 14-3/8 to checkered butt and it says it is a 2-3/4" gun. They want $1800, but I suspect they would take less, in my experience with them. I would be all over it, but have too many projects in the works right now.

Colin, I should be home in a couple of weeks and have the KFC sitting in its case a boxed up if you are still interested

quote:

Originally posted by lee440:
I don't know if you found one yet, but Cabelas in Maine has a gorgeous unmolested Army&Navy 12 ga. that appears to have 95%+ original case colors and blue. Stock is 14-3/8 to checkered butt and it says it is a 2-3/4" gun. They want $1800, but I suspect they would take less, in my experience with them. I would be all over it, but have too many projects in the works right now.

Man, that is a hell of a shotgun! And the perfect chokes IC and Imp Mod! Wow...

I have been negotiating with Cabelas on that gun. Chambers actually 2.5 inches. Barrels have been refinished. Action also has some play. That is why it has been sitting there so long. I had them down to $1,599.99. Being slightly off face killed that deal. Too bad it is a good looking gun. The price was too good to be true.