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Need help identifying what .27 caliber was chambered in Winchester model 51 sporting rifle designed by T C Johnson approx. 1916. Obviously too early to be .270 Win. Book by Houze says chambered in .27 cal. and 30.06. There are no case demensions given or shown.I would appreciate any possible help Thanks Steve | ||
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With that date it would also be a little early for the 276 Pederson. The Chinese had a military cartridge that was 277cal, but I don't have the dates filed in my head. Your best bet would be to do a chamber cast, that includes some of the rifling (for the land/groove dimentions). | |||
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Steve What is the Winchester Model 51 Sporting Rifle??? Ray Arizona Mountains | |||
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Steve I should have added - many 7mm rifles were referred to by bore diameter which is .275 or 276. My point being that it could be a 7mm cartridge. Ray Arizona Mountains | |||
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Possible guess. .275 Rimless [Rigby] Actually a 7mm, introduced 1907 and almost identical to 7x57 Mauser. Grizz Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln Only one war at a time. Abe Again. | |||
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Still wondering - What is the Winchester Model 51 Sporting Rifle??? Ray Arizona Mountains | |||
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same thing as a remingotn model 30, a reworked enfield, iirc opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Back in september I went thru all of my Winchester reference material and could find nothing on the M51 sporting Rifle. So it must not have been a catalog item but rather a custon-shop offering??? Ray Arizona Mountains | |||
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Ray i have never laid my grubby paws on one.. i'll take a look at a friend library next weekend and see jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Hi, to everyone.IM new here and not English expert and not from English speking Country, but be patient with me I heve never heard about Winchester M51 so where do it come from,and ,but the 270W cartridge did exist 1925 for Winchester 54 bolt rifle,30-06 funneled down and with a slightly longer neck. and very favorable among hunters.that is not long from approx 1916,was it to early to by 270 Win? Thanks erlingurj | |||
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Hmmm, I love a mystery. Google refers to a Winchester Model 51 Imperial Sporting Rifle & most entries refer to this book "Winchester Bolt Action Military & Sporting Rifles" There are some tantalising pics of the contents in this auction. Winchester Book Auction Hope I'm not out of line with this reference, I'm a bit new here. Although I would tend to guess at something like a 275 Mauser ie 7x57, it would be interesting to speculate if, given Winchesters building of P14s etc, that they mightn't have chambered a derivitive of these in the 276 Enfield Cartridge that the P14s predecessor was chambered for. Ok, I'm probably just being silly/wistful here.  Steve | |||
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I'm thinking it is most likely a reference (with suitable typographical error) for the 280Ross cartridge. The 280Ross was the "other" north american service cartridge and developed around 1906 and, at the time atleast, was a "popular" sporting cartridge though that popularity swiftly faded. AD If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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Beg your pardon for finding this post too late. I have been doing a reserch about the .270 Winchester and Winchester claims that they designed it about 1916 for his M51 rifle (they made 20 M51 rifles and some in .270). They freeze the proyect until 1925 when the began to produce a completelly different rifle the M54. If you are interested I can post some of my researchs on the subject. Thanks Martin Double Rifle Shooters Society member from Argentina. My doubles: .577 Snider by W.Richards. .58" ML by Pedersoli | |||
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Martin, do you have any info as to what sort of rifle the Model 51 was, Enfield or Springfield based or something else again? I would certainly like to know more. The powders in 1916 must have been pretty marginal for something like the 270. Steve | |||
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Shinzo, Beg your pardon for been so late. M51 was a unique rifle I will try to post patents. If you can PM me your email adress I can send you more info. Martin Double Rifle Shooters Society member from Argentina. My doubles: .577 Snider by W.Richards. .58" ML by Pedersoli | |||
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I don't know if Winchester ever chambered a rifle in the cartridge, but Winchester and Western did offer ammunition for a short time for the 275 H&H Magnum. The cartridge was developed at the same time as the 375 H&H. Was the 375 H&H shortened to 2.5" and necked to .287". Land distance was .275". | |||
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After Martin's communication above I went looking on Google for a book review that featured the Model 51 Winchester. I didn't find it but did find the following.
from This thread on an International Ammunition Assn. forum I think that from this we can probably accept that the 27 cal cartridge mentioned is a prototype .270 Winchester. Steve | |||
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According to the book "Winchester Bolt Action Military and Sporting Rifles, 1877 to 1937" by Herbert G. Houz chapter 14: 24 Winchester Model 51 were made and at least 5 were .27 Winchester. Thanks Martin Double Rifle Shooters Society member from Argentina. My doubles: .577 Snider by W.Richards. .58" ML by Pedersoli | |||
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All this chat about 27 cal ctgs has my heart thumpin'. I have an unopened box of ctgs marked 27 caliber. I am desperately searching for them as I'd love to post a picture and see what ya'll think. One of the most intriguing bits of information on the box is: IMR lot 25. IMR powder lot #25!! WOW Send me those good vibes so I can find this box in all my other junk. Andy We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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Good vibes heading your way.  I'd love to see what the headstamp is, but then it wouldn't be an unopened box.  Oh well. Steve | |||
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I found the box and the info I provided is not exactly the same but close: 20 CARTRIDGES, BALL CALIBER .276 Powder, IMR 25 Lot 1324 Cartridge Lot 23 Empty cartridge cases should be cared for and disposed of as prescribed in paragraph 29, A. R. 775-10. Drawings FB 9892 and PC 50 Manufactured at FRANKFORD ARSENAL, 1929 I would like to have this box x-rayed or have the contents examined by some form of non-destructive testing to determine the dimensions of the cartridges. I gave $30.00 for this unopened box back in 1994. Wonder what they are worth today? Andy We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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.276 Pedersen. Experimental US military cartridge for a retarded blow back rifle, circa 1927, according to Hatcher's Notebook. Grizz Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln Only one war at a time. Abe Again. | |||
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Thanks Grizz! I always had my suspitions that was what they are. Cool! We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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My advice is to give it to a gunsmith or do it yourself with the cerrosafe alloy & make a chamber cast. Then compare the dimensions to the cases listed in Donnelly's cartridge conversions to check. An alternate would be to find a case that would chamber OK & fire-form the case with 5 gr. fast pistol powder & filled with cornmeal as RCBS recommends...the blown out case would give you the case chamber size, although it may split..you don't care as the idea is to find what cartridge chambered for. Also, did you measure the bore to see what the bore diameter is for the caliber? Tom | |||
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The 276 Pedersen is actually a 7mm. Most of the cartridges are fairly common although there are some variations that are quite rare and valuable. Ray Arizona Mountains | |||
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Found a tear in the bottom of the box almost perfectly concealed. EXTREMELY carefully removed a cartridge. Should have had mic at the ready because this cartridge was unlike anything I expected. It is a much smaller case than I thought it would be. The rim diameter is close to 30Rem. Much smaller than 30-06 or 7x57 and the length is similar to 300 Savage. What are the dimensions for a .276 Pederson? The headstamp is FA 29 Andy B We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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Andy, the 276 Pederen is a smaller case than say a 30-06. From Ammoguide, it has the following dims. Case length overall. 2.02" Base to Shoulder. 1.65" Base & Rim diameter. 0.45" Shoulder diameter. 0.385" Neck diameter. 0.313" Bullet diameter. 0.284" Shoulder angle. 15 degrees. As you can see by that is is quite well tapered for easy feeding. The headstamp Federal Arsenal 1929 is about right for when the US Military was playing with the Pedersen. Steve | |||
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Steve , those numbers look about right as I can remember. I wonder how a ctg like this would perform with modern powders and in a short action and a short barrel? Could one get brass made or is it a design patented by our govt and not to be released, like the 100 mile per gallon carburator? Andy B We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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Not a great picture but for comparison, 30-06 on the left, 276 Pedersen, .308 on the right.  | |||
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I had a look at several catridges on Ammoguide & I think that it would be possible to reform either 303 Br or 30-40Krag. They're about .005" too big in the base but that could be rectified when turning the rim off & forming an extraction grove. Having said that, its a lot of work & probably only worth doing if you've got an original Pedersen rifle. If I wanted to create a rifle for a similar round you could use either 35Rem brass for a slightly shorter & fatter round or the rimmed rounds & accept a slightly larger base diameter & get a chambering reamer made accordingly. Many would argue that a 7mm-08 would tick most of the boxes that a 276 Pedersen will. Looking at Rustynuts photo of the 276 Ped against a 308 round, its easy to see this. Not as nice looking as the 276 Pedersen though. Steve | |||
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It's got that sloping body that was also on the 280 Ross and the 7mm Brenneke. I believe the theory was it aided extraction. | |||
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Sears and Roebucks had Win manufater Mod 70"s in the 50's and sold them as JCHigges Mod 51. | |||
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