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High altitude hunting tips
26 January 2018, 05:21
larryshoresHigh altitude hunting tips
I am on a plane reading a book that I bought god knows how many years ago. It is written by a Spanish gentleman. It is about his mountain hunting exploits, much of which are at high altitude.
Throughout the book, he has made numerous comments about what to ingest and to not ingest when at altitude. I found some of these quite surprising. However, I have absolutely no knowledge of these matters. In other words, I am clueless.
Some of the things to not ingest include meat, vegetables, sleeping pills and anti-diarrhea medicines.
Apparently, at least according to him, meat and vegetables can contribute to coming down with HAPE. I can’t remember the issues with the meds.
My first thought is what the hell am I supposed to eat?
Does anyone know anything about this?
Thanks!
26 January 2018, 06:55
Brandon.GleasonLarry,
My only thought, if I'm remembering my flight physiology and wilderness medicine training correctly, is that he meant HAFE (high altitude flatus expulsion) in regard to the food. Foods which make one gassy will release a fixed amount of gas from their solid form, which rapidly expands at high altitude in ones (fixed volume) GI tract causing bloating and discomfort (Boyles law).
As to the sleeping pills, I'd guess being drowsy would possibly mask or confuse with signs of high altitude cerebral edema.
My only thought with antidiarrheals would be them masking the presence of diarrhea that could be present with early altitude sickness (pre-HACE/HAPE).
Just some stream of consciousness thoughts on my part, hope they help.
26 January 2018, 18:03
KathiHusband did Kilimanjaro in 2013 (19,340) so I asked him your question. He said they ate meat, vegetables, soups and bread all the way to the summit.
Appetite did lessen the night before the summit when they camped a few hundred feet below the top.
Unless the author is referring to going ultra-altitude over 8,000 meters, but no one is hunting at that height.
Kathi
kathi@wildtravel.net
708-425-3552
"The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page."
26 January 2018, 19:19
larryshoresThanks.
I will go back and look again. What I recall him saying is that meat and vegetables generating some type of gas that put pressure on the lungs thus causing HAPE.
Of course, this was in the 70’s.
26 January 2018, 19:38
Brandon.Gleasonquote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
Thanks.
I will go back and look again. What I recall him saying is that meat and vegetables generating some type of gas that put pressure on the lungs thus causing HAPE.
Of course, this was in the 70’s.
Could’ve been gas in the GI tract causing a decrease in diaphragmatic excursion and decreasing his tidal volume, making him feel like he couldn’t take a full breath (because he functionally couldn’t)?
26 January 2018, 21:25
Charlie64.
Genuinely a fascinating thread for me.
1/ what is considered high altitude?
2/ clear everyone is different, weight, hight, fitness etc - but is there a general or golden rule how to go about it?
3/ lots of water / less water ?
4/ meds ? And if so what ?
5/ go up then down to sleep ?
Would love to hear / learn more !
Charlie
.
"Up the ladders and down the snakes!"
26 January 2018, 23:07
larryshoresWe are driving through Colorado. When we get to our destination, I will look it up.
They were in Afghanistan in the 70’s. That I remember with certainty. Beyond that, I want to check.
27 January 2018, 01:56
Bwana1One word- acclimate.
27 January 2018, 02:18
larryshoresI have taken a look. They are in Afghanistan in 1973.
The elevation references I see refer to camp being at 11,350. Thus far the highest elevation I note is 15,557.
They have a doctor with them. His name is Dr. Hassan. I think he was an Afghan but I am not sure.
Here is a quote,”Don’t eat much, especially at night. Don’t eat vegetables and very little meat- they produce gas that presses against the lungs, and that bad for you. Take vitamin C. And no sleeping pills.”
27 January 2018, 02:22
AnotherAZWriterI have spent a lot of time at high altitude. Farting is well known amongst mountaineers; you just get gassy.
As Bwana1 said, the key is to acclimate. One of my friends, and a guide who I used in the Himalayas, said he no longer does 8000 meter peaks because it requires a ton of acclimation, and it is just plain boring.
He took me higher than Kilimanjaro but I never felt it. On Kili I barfed at around 18,500 - and I did that ten years before my Himalaya trip, when I was probably in better condition. The difference was acclimation.
The problem you will have Larry, is that you won't have three weeks living at 12K before going higher, but whatever time you can spend will be helpful.
Another thing: some people just can't take high altitude. It has nothing to do with physical fitness (although lacking fitness is a sure way to have problems); it is a physiological thing.
I will get with my buddy and see if he has notes, ebooks, etc. on dealing with high altitudes.
27 January 2018, 02:28
AnotherAZWriterquote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
I have taken a look. They are in Afghanistan in 1973.
The elevation references I see refer to camp being at 11,350. Thus far the highest elevation I note is 15,557.
They have a doctor with them. His name is Dr. Hassan. I think he was an Afghan but I am not sure.
Here is a quote,”Don’t eat much, especially at night. Don’t eat vegetables and very little meat- they produce gas that presses against the lungs, and that bad for you. Take vitamin C. And no sleeping pills.”
A big no no at high altitudes is alcohol.
27 January 2018, 02:31
larryshoresI NEVER drink while hunting anyway.
27 January 2018, 06:37
OverlandI have no high altitude hunting experience, but do have some high-ish altitude mountaineering experience.
As has been stated, everyone reacts differently to altitude. One person may not feel it at all, while his friend who is fitter, stronger, and younger may be doubled over and struggling to move. There seems to be no accounting for it, other than altitude is something everyone handles differently.
The key is to allow time to acclimate, drink lots and lots of water, and consider getting a prescription for Diamox. If I was paying the big bucks for a high altitude sheep hunt, I would get to a nearby town a week in advance and start acclimating.
I have taken Diamox, and recommend it.
27 January 2018, 09:39
larryshoresYes, diamox is a must. I have used it a couple of times.
I have, thus far, been lucky with the altitude. There is no way I could go and spend an extra week acclimatizing. No time. I am taking the long way in to acclimatize.
27 January 2018, 14:34
Charlie64.
Where are you off to Larry ?
.
"Up the ladders and down the snakes!"
27 January 2018, 16:47
larryshoresTajikistan
28 January 2018, 06:04
SevensFor sheep, ibex or Markhor?
28 January 2018, 06:30
larryshoresMarco Polo& ibex
29 January 2018, 04:03
SliderI took Diamox last fall. I was the only one in our camp that did. No one had a problem.I also had a CDS dial built for my scope for 12000ft elevation.
29 January 2018, 04:19
SliderThe food there is bland. I took some A1 steak sauce in a small plastic travel style bottle.(the ones used for mouthwash and shampoo) I also took a candy bar for everyday of the hunt. I was glad I did. They make stew style dinners with hard bread. Lunches are cheese,sausages,bread ect. Spike camps are canned meat and canned fish. Cooked ramon noodle's with canned meat in it. The Meals in Africa are a TREAT!!!
29 January 2018, 05:38
SliderThey drink Tea in Asia. I took two packs of Starbucks VIA instant. One of the Shakar Guides was from Turkey and he had them too. I asked him where he got them and he looked at me funny and said I ordered them online.
30 January 2018, 20:34
SaeedVery surprising to hear this about food.
I have no personal experience of any high altitude - maximum I have been was just over 4300 meters.
Did not bother me at all.
In fact I was very surprised I really did not feel anything new!!
But, I have read practically all the books I could on mountain climbing, all over the world.
Never heard anyone mention anything regarding meat!
30 January 2018, 21:59
larryshoresWho knows? If my math is correct, this is over 40 years ago . Perhaps they had different thoughts back then. Like you Saeed, I was surprised.
My single high altitude hunt was not difficult in spite of the altitude. I walked 11 miles back to camp one day from about 15,000. It was quite easy. However, heavy breathing came on quickly on uphill areas.
01 February 2018, 03:45
Mike_DettorreDrink plenty of water. You dehydrate fast at high altitude.
I carry at least 64 oz on my person if I am going to be over 8000 ft. Yes, Iknow its about 4lbs. But dehydration is serious.
MikeLegistine actu quod scripsi?
Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.
What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
02 February 2018, 16:01
The NorwegianFrom my 5 trips in such circumstances;
- eat all that you can - you will probably loose some weight because of freezing and you need to eat to reduce freezing
- drink all that you can - the Diamox will make you want to have a piss all the time - and you need the drink to keep up
- if problem to fall a sleep - use some tablets to fall a sleep - you need the sleep to be able to put in the effort to be a hunter in such circumstances
I am not trying to make this sound like hell on earth - but it is a fact that about 50% of the hunters do not shoot their sheep by themselves. About 50% av the guides do it because the clients are not able due to the cold, freezing, exhaustion etc etc.
All the best,
Morten
The more I know, the less I wonder !
02 February 2018, 16:10
CaracalThe highest altitude I have been to was 17500feet in the Andes while mountaineering.
Highest hunts I have done were 13-16500feet in Nepal, Kyrgyztan and Peru.
It seems that some people are not built for high altitude and if that's the case there is little you can do.
I personally do not mind it at all.
Overall fitness is definitely a big factor and it doesn't matter that much where your training took place. Mental strength is at least as important.
When you are in good shape it is simply that your body recovers much faster. So get used to hard aerobic exercise. Hiking with a heavy backpack would be the best training.
Most people I've been with do ok on the first day(s) but will break down eventually because they can't recover quickly. That's avoidable if proper preparation is done.
Not sure if food is a big factor. I try to eat soup every evening and I drink lots of tea.
I supplement electrolytes after a particularly hard day of hiking. I do not eat much in the morning when I hunt.
02 February 2018, 17:47
larryshoresYesterday at SCI my wife noticed a booth for Wilderness Athlete. They had various powders to put in water for a variety of reasons. As we talked to them, I mentioned going to altitude. They have a powder that supposedly helps with altitude, meaning functioning better with reduced oxygen.
My wife (a doctor) started asking medical questions. This guy couldn’t answer them. However, he did say he was from Texas. He lived at 500 feet. He has personally used this product and it definitely made a difference to him.
We bought several varieties to try. If nothing else, it has 20% of the sugar in low calorie Gatorade.
02 February 2018, 18:00
The NorwegianDrink tea Larry ... as the locals do in the Himalaya and Andes area...
Chewing coca leaves as an Inca would probably be good, to but difficult to obtain
Morten
The more I know, the less I wonder !
03 February 2018, 00:36
TexKDYep. I remember back in the 1980s, when I was way younger, all the locals in Peru were chewing on coca leaves.
As a lifelong flatlander at sea level and even working around the world much of that was sea level too, I don't pretend to know anything about altitude. When I have been at altitudes I have had easy experiences where I wasn't bothered too much, and ones where I was, even though I was in shape.
One thing that has happened more often than not to me in the mountains though is that I get the stuffy and blocked up nasal passages and can't sleep as well. It seemed to me at the times it happened that I had much more head ache. When I have clear and full breathing I didn't notice any headaches.
Id like to follow along here in the thread and see what you find out.
03 February 2018, 10:15
CougarzInteresting that everybody mentions tea. Yes I understand that it's the local custom where you're going but real tea is also a diarrhetic because it contains caffeine which can lead to dehydration, the more you drink the more you pee beyond your intake. So the idea of supplementing that with something that contains electrolytes seems a good idea.
Good luck and have fun on your hunt.
Roger
___________________________
I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along.
*we band of 45-70ers*
03 February 2018, 12:44
SaeedI heard in the Andes in South America they chew dope leaves!!
03 February 2018, 22:10
bwana dogoYes Saeed-coca leaves and coca leaf tea. Most good hotels provide complimentary coca tea on arrival in Cuzco, Peru. Seems to help with the incumbent headaches. My friends and I used Diamox and dexamethasone in Tajikistan in 2015- No headaches and no problems. Hydration is hugely important
04 February 2018, 00:37
KathiHusband and I did the drive from Dushanbe to the Hot Springs camp in 2008 and did NOT use Diamox. Had no problems, although the drive was extremely long it did give some time to acclimate.
Three other hunters in our party used Diamox and we had to stop often for them because of frequent urination.
Kathi
kathi@wildtravel.net
708-425-3552
"The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only one page."
04 February 2018, 04:05
Grizzly Adamsquote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
I heard in the Andes in South America they chew dope leaves!!
Son was in Peru last year. Coca tea is universal, buy it anywhere. Just don't try and bring it home.
Grizz
Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man
Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln
Only one war at a time. Abe Again.
30 March 2018, 01:14
larryshoresSome one has told me about a product called Mountain Ops Enduro. It is a drink. It has an ingredient that several people tell me really works in a low oxygen environment. Nitric oxide. Has anyone ever tried this?
30 March 2018, 23:07
Frostbitquote:
Originally posted by Slider:
he looked at me funny and said I ordered them online.
LOL!!
31 March 2018, 23:24
Brandon.Gleasonquote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
Some one has told me about a product called Mountain Ops Enduro. It is a drink. It has an ingredient that several people tell me really works in a low oxygen environment. Nitric oxide. Has anyone ever tried this?
Larry, nitric oxide (NO) dilates the blood vessels and allows increased blood flow to organs and muscles. It helps the body make up for the lower saturation of hemoglobin at higher altitude by passing MORE blood (and consequently hemoglobin) to the organs and muscles.
There was a study on this in 2012 that looked at physiologic mutations found in Tibetans living at altitude to derive how they acclimated to living and functioning in a chronically hypoxic environment.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3295887/01 April 2018, 03:39
larryshoresquote:
Originally posted by Brandon.Gleason:
quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
Some one has told me about a product called Mountain Ops Enduro. It is a drink. It has an ingredient that several people tell me really works in a low oxygen environment. Nitric oxide. Has anyone ever tried this?
Larry, nitric oxide (NO) dilates the blood vessels and allows increased blood flow to organs and muscles. It helps the body make up for the lower saturation of hemoglobin at higher altitude by passing MORE blood (and consequently hemoglobin) to the organs and muscles.
There was a study on this in 2012 that looked at physiologic mutations found in Tibetans living at altitude to derive how they acclimated to living and functioning in a chronically hypoxic environment.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3295887/
Thanks Brandon. I am thinking this is worth looking into buying before the trip.
02 April 2018, 05:37
Frostbitquote:
I have a friend who is an elite Spartan Racer who's over 40. He swears by
BeetElite